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F30 / F31 / F32 / F33 (2012 - current)
The sixth generation 3 series, chassis code F30. 2013 model year 328i and 335i sedans now in production. Read the F30 frequently asked question thread for all your basic question and dive into all the details in the ultimate F30 information thread.

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  #51  
Old 02-13-2013, 10:05 AM
PK2348 PK2348 is offline
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Originally Posted by SamS View Post
Yes, because a free smartphone app works with the HUD, always gets a signal/recalculates where there is no cell coverage, etc.

Is fiddling with a 4" screen in the cupholder while you rear-end a car worth saving the $2K?
If you are in an area where your cell phone has no signal, there is a good chance buit in navi will have a similar issue in that area.

No need for fiddling with a 4" screen, verbal commands are transmited through blue tooth and mute the radio just like built in navi.

As far as HUD, i find it distractive to begin with, you end up watching those little icons at the end of your hood instead of paying attention to the road
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  #52  
Old 02-13-2013, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by PK2348 View Post
If you are in an area where your cell phone has no signal, there is a good chance buit in navi will have a similar issue in that area.
Built-in Navigation uses satellites. The only area where a dead cell zone would impact the on-board navigation would be driving on the moon.

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Originally Posted by PK2348 View Post
No need for fiddling with a 4" screen, verbal commands are transmited through blue tooth and mute the radio just like built in navi.
You must have a really good phone Nav if it gets your verbal commands correct 100% of the time. These are the ones I currently have installed on my iPhone:
  • Apple Maps
  • Google Maps
  • Navigon
  • Garmin Street Pilot
  • Nokia HERE Maps

^^ I wouldn't trade in the on-board Nav for any of them. Using the BMW Remote App with Google Local send-to-car, the car can navigate to any destination that Google can find.

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Originally Posted by PK2348 View Post
As far as HUD, i find it distractive to begin with, you end up watching those little icons at the end of your hood instead of paying attention to the road
You are the first person I've ever heard about to be distracted by HUD. Of course it can be turned off and you can rely on the 8.8" iDrive screen. Can you image the outrage if BMW shrunk down the iDrive screen and put it close to the cupholders?

Last edited by SamS; 02-13-2013 at 10:11 AM.
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  #53  
Old 02-13-2013, 10:19 AM
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408Racer 408Racer is offline
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Built-in Navigation uses satellites. The only area where a dead cell zone would impact the on-board navigation would be driving on the moon.
So they work on Mars?

Actually, the maps on my iPad work off of satellites as well.
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  #54  
Old 02-13-2013, 10:34 AM
PK2348 PK2348 is offline
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Originally Posted by SamS View Post
Built-in Navigation uses satellites. The only area where a dead cell zone would impact the on-board navigation would be driving on the moon.



You must have a really good phone Nav if it gets your verbal commands correct 100% of the time. These are the ones I currently have installed on my iPhone:
  • Apple Maps
  • Google Maps
  • Navigon
  • Garmin Street Pilot
  • Nokia HERE Maps

^^ I wouldn't trade in the on-board Nav for any of them. Using the BMW Remote App with Google Local send-to-car, the car can navigate to any destination that Google can find.



You are the first person I've ever heard about to be distracted by HUD. Of course it can be turned off and you can rely on the 8.8" iDrive screen. Can you image the outrage if BMW shrunk down the iDrive screen and put it close to the cupholders?
I had built in navi in my 09 E90. Maybe the current ones are better, but that one was a waste of money. I got it only to get the idirve, which i liked and got used to on the E60. There were numbers of times it just plainly brought me to the wrong place (few miles away) and told me that i was at my destination. My iphone would save me everytime. There were even more instances when it would not accept the address, most of these were NJ addresses (BJ's home state). I wonder how the new ones are, try navigating in NJ to bridgewater BMW or to Paul Miller BMW. I had to use the iphone. It was ironic that BMW navi could not find a BMW dealer.
If you must look at a screen while driving, you can mount the iphone to the dashboard or the windshield.

Apple maps is garbage, and it does not connect to bluetooth. I use Google maps and Waze, have had no problems with either one. I only ocassionally have to travel to a place where i have not been before, so i do not use it a lot.
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  #55  
Old 02-13-2013, 10:36 AM
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Built-in Navigation uses satellites. The only area where a dead cell zone would impact the on-board navigation would be driving on the moon.
So a satelite phone always works and never has reception issues?
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  #56  
Old 02-13-2013, 10:46 AM
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So a satelite phone always works and never has reception issues?
What does a satellite phone have to do with the satellite communication in a car?

I've never been in a place where the in-car Nav could not lock onto a satellite signal. But I've lost count of the times my phone has zero coverage.
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  #57  
Old 02-13-2013, 11:02 AM
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What does a satellite phone have to do with the satellite communication in a car?

I've never been in a place where the in-car Nav could not lock onto a satellite signal. But I've lost count of the times my phone has zero coverage.
I am not electronics expert, but i assumed satelite phone and satelite navi both communicate with a satelite (in case of a navi it has to communicate with at least 3 satelites at once i believe). So a problem in one would likely cause a problem in another. I was asking a question to see if my assumption is correct.
You're in a different area. For you navi might make sence. In NY Metro, cell phones work everywhere and getting better on a daily basis.
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  #58  
Old 02-13-2013, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Built in navigation is not becoming obsolete. It's getting better.

Five years ago there was a huge gap between what a $150 Garmin Nuvi could do and what a $2000 BMW iDrive nav could do. But time goes by and Nuvi has stalled on innovation and the car manufacturers have caught up.

Smart phone navigation is really good, not fully featured enough, but decent and 'free' doesn't suck. But they are stuck on the small screen and that's their downfall. If down the road a company like BMW partners with Google or Apple to transmit their small screen apps for the big screen, different story, but right now the fully-integrated wide-screen nav is the best approach.

BJ
I just re-read your post and i must say i am very excited! This must be the first time you agreed!
If we are talking about resale value, and in a few years we can transmit apps to the idrive via HDMI cable, than obviously noone in their right mind would pay for a built in navi, so resale value is in the toilet.
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  #59  
Old 02-13-2013, 11:15 AM
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I just re-read your post and i must say i am very excited! This must be the first time you agreed!
If we are talking about resale value, and in a few years we can transmit apps to the idrive via HDMI cable, than obviously noone in their right mind would pay for a built in navi, so resale value is in the toilet.
We already have this feature now, and it doesn't use apps->HDMI->iDrive, it uses USB. An example of this is Pandora integration via BMW Apps. The iDrive interacts with the apps so you can do things like Thumbs up/down, favorites etc right in the iDrive menu.

The key thing to understand is that these advanced features are tied into the Navigation architecture, so the most cutting-edge features will always be bundled with the actual Navigation interface/option, not the F30-standard 6.5" screen.

So, you're not paying $2000 just for "navigation", you're getting the option to have your phone's apps interact with the car in a much more sophisticated manner than they ever will with the standard 6.5" non-Nav iDrive. And that current and potential integration is they key to why "navigation" could be a potential must-have option now, and in the future.

Last edited by SamS; 02-13-2013 at 11:17 AM.
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  #60  
Old 02-13-2013, 11:26 AM
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408Racer 408Racer is offline
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So, you're not paying $2000 just for "navigation", you're getting the option to have your phone's apps interact with the car in a much more sophisticated manner than they ever will with the standard 6.5" non-Nav iDrive. And that current and potential integration is they key to why "navigation" could be a potential must-have option now, and in the future.
Good point there. It is after all, the Tech Package. In the old days, the only reason for having a screen is the SatNav, now, we have a bunch of other stuff bundled along with it...or perhaps, we have a bunch of stuff in Tech and SatNav is just one component.

Now the next cool thing would be something more open...like plug in your device (whatever it may be) and have the car interface with that.
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  #61  
Old 02-13-2013, 11:27 AM
PK2348 PK2348 is offline
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The key thing to understand is that these advanced features are tied into the Navigation architecture, so the most cutting-edge features will always be bundled with the actual Navigation interface/option, not the F30-standard 6.5" screen.
I am having troubles understanding the above, maybe its too technical for me. Could you explain in simpler terms?
As far as i believe, we are just talking about a display screen able to display what is on a smartphone. Does not seem like a huge challenge technically, but has potential to eat away at BMWs profits, so of course they will kick and scream and make it a part of something else that you want just to get people to buy it.

I read an article recently, cant remember where about Ford's "idrive equivalent" dont remeber what it is called either. The system is completely separated from anything else in the car like steering, brakes, engine and such, because as some experts demonstrated it is very easy to hack into it and take over control, wirelessly.
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  #62  
Old 02-13-2013, 11:46 AM
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I am having troubles understanding the above, maybe its too technical for me. Could you explain in simpler terms?
As far as i believe, we are just talking about a display screen able to display what is on a smartphone. Does not seem like a huge challenge technically, but has potential to eat away at BMWs profits, so of course they will kick and scream and make it a part of something else that you want just to get people to buy it.
It is way more complex than that. To develop something like BMW's iDrive, HondaLink, Ford's MyFord Touch probably costs a billion (yes B) dollars. These systems have to be rock-solid and interface with the all aspects of the vehicles control systems. To have the simply hand over functionality to any device that wants to spit out 1280x480 (which no cell phone supports BTW) to be shown upon the screen is a tough hill to climb. The most technically efficient way to ensure mobile devices are compatible with these OEM systems is to to allow a developer kit interaction that third party apps can conform to in order to ensure everything works as expected.

Let's say you get your wish and you can mirror your phones screen onto a 8.8" iDrive screen. How would you control the things on the screen? Use the phone's touch screen? You might as well be interacting with the phone itself. Use the iDrive knob? No, that would take integration on how the car communicates with the phone, which leads us back to the development kit software I referenced above.

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I read an article recently, cant remember where about Ford's "idrive equivalent" dont remeber what it is called either. The system is completely separated from anything else in the car like steering, brakes, engine and such, because as some experts demonstrated it is very easy to hack into it and take over control, wirelessly.
You've just described a situation which makes the best argument for why BMW (etc) can't arbitrarily let any mobile device start interacting with the iDrive without conforming to the standards already in place for BMW Apps.
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  #63  
Old 02-13-2013, 12:06 PM
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Most likely such integration will be started by the Japanese/Korean companies, to make their cars more attractive to buyers. Then the german brands will have to follow. Right now they are making out like bandits because you bought a 2k navi system to perform a function that can be done by a smart phone for free. Is a slightly bigger screen really makes a 2k difference? Maybe, that is a personal choice.
My feeling is that since the LCD is the centerpiece of the interior, it looks funny to have the smaller screen in there. Additionally, the functionality I need from nav the iDrive more than covers without me needing the extra bells and whistles.

I'm vacationing next week in Florida. I'll be using my iPhone for navigation there, that's where it serves its purpose most, in a rent-a-car. My iPhone nav also got me through the streets of London and Paris quite well.

Point is, in-car nav can be simple and point-to-point, iDrive is just fine there. But for walking in a big city or locating a restaurant, smartphone nav is fine there. Two different navs, two different sets of functionality, and two very different screen sizes.

BJ
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  #64  
Old 02-13-2013, 12:10 PM
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I am not electronics expert, but i assumed satelite phone and satelite navi both communicate with a satelite (in case of a navi it has to communicate with at least 3 satelites at once i believe). So a problem in one would likely cause a problem in another. I was asking a question to see if my assumption is correct.
You're in a different area. For you navi might make sence. In NY Metro, cell phones work everywhere and getting better on a daily basis.
The difference is that an in-car nav has all the maps for North America onboard in its memory, on a disc spinning in the trunk.

An iPhone has no maps onboard, they get drawn in realtime from a provider data connection (3G, 4G, LTE) depending on where you are.

So next week when I'm driving through the Florida Keys using my iPhone as a nav, if I lose my AT&T data connection, I have no navigation.

GPS is all around us, it's very rare you hit a dead spot. But the maps and the data, different story.

BJ
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  #65  
Old 02-13-2013, 12:12 PM
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boltjaM3s boltjaM3s is offline
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I just re-read your post and i must say i am very excited! This must be the first time you agreed!
If we are talking about resale value, and in a few years we can transmit apps to the idrive via HDMI cable, than obviously noone in their right mind would pay for a built in navi, so resale value is in the toilet.
Yes, there we are in agreement.

If I could get Google Maps to appear on my big LCD in the middle of the F30 dash I'd be ecstatic. But, in the short term, having iDrive maps is fine enough for driving and traffic avoidance on the road and Google Maps is fine enough for walking directions and locating points of interest when I'm in a city. One is large for easy visibility at 80 mph, the other is small for detailed walks and POI's.

BJ
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Last edited by boltjaM3s; 02-13-2013 at 12:15 PM.
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  #66  
Old 02-13-2013, 12:14 PM
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An iPhone has no maps onboard, they get drawn in realtime from a provider data connection (3G, 4G, LTE) depending on where you are.
Certain iPhone Navigation apps (Navigon, for example) allow you to store maps locally. You choose which states you want.

Regardless, navigation in the car is always more stable than what's on your phone. And if the car can't find the destination, just use the send-to-car feature of Google Maps within the BMW Remote App.
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  #67  
Old 02-13-2013, 12:22 PM
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It is way more complex than that. To develop something like BMW's iDrive, HondaLink, Ford's MyFord Touch probably costs a billion (yes B) dollars. These systems have to be rock-solid and interface with the all aspects of the vehicles control systems. To have the simply hand over functionality to any device that wants to spit out 1280x480 (which no cell phone supports BTW) to be shown upon the screen is a tough hill to climb. The most technically efficient way to ensure mobile devices are compatible with these OEM systems is to to allow a developer kit interaction that third party apps can conform to in order to ensure everything works as expected.

Let's say you get your wish and you can mirror your phones screen onto a 8.8" iDrive screen. How would you control the things on the screen? Use the phone's touch screen? You might as well be interacting with the phone itself. Use the iDrive knob? No, that would take integration on how the car communicates with the phone, which leads us back to the development kit software I referenced above.
Another thing to understand:

Google Maps is web-based architecture and iDrive maps is disc-based architecture. The reason why it costs $300+ to buy a new disc for your trunk is because there is no realtime way to update for new roads, points of interest, that new restaurant who changed its phone number, etc.

BMW would have to go to a solely data-based platform like Google Maps which requires a constant connection to interface with a hard drive that doesn't exist and a data connection that doesn't exist. Both would cost a fortune to develop and maintain.

The smartphones have that all covered, what they need is a big screen to 'broadcast' it on. Problem is the car makers don't want to lose a $2000 add-on option for the sake of allowing a third-party to overtake their in-car screens. Not to mention that there would be dozens of new in-car LCD friendly nav companies coming out with dozens of apps and all would have to be tested to work with the protocol, voice command, and on and on.

BJ
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  #68  
Old 02-13-2013, 12:24 PM
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If you do the math, buying and keeping the car for 7 years and then selling it will only be worth $1000 at most to your pocket vs. leasing 3 brand new cars in the same span. And most people who intend to keep their cars for 7 years actually get out in Year 4 and really get killed.

The reasons:

1. BMW's unlimited warranty ensures $0 maintenance or repair costs for all 7 years you are leasing.

2. Investing the $50,000 you're going to give to a bank to pay off a note and depleting it slowly over 7 years will give you a significant return on that money.

3. Instead of owning a depreciating asset, you'll be making small monthly payments on something that won't depreciate.

There are tons of threads on the subject, lots of models run and personal experiences shared. The truth is, people who buy and drive for 7 years could have leased instead and in most cases broke-even or only lost $1000 or so. BMW's are not cheap to repair, and once out of warranty that eats into the "profit" that you expect when its time to sell the old thing.

The only way to get some sort of "win" in this game is to buy a CPO that's 3 years old off-lease. Keep that car for 7 years, you might make out. BMW's unlimited warranty and the value of the cars make leasing a much better option. The monthly payments are low and you can guarantee $0 repair costs. Over 60% of all BMW's are leased, and it's for this reason. Drive 3 brand new cars in the next 7 years, not 1 old one. It's not worth it.

BJ
Of course miles driven is the biggest indicator of cost.

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Old 02-13-2013, 12:24 PM
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Certain iPhone Navigation apps (Navigon, for example) allow you to store maps locally. You choose which states you want.

Regardless, navigation in the car is always more stable than what's on your phone. And if the car can't find the destination, just use the send-to-car feature of Google Maps within the BMW Remote App.
Right, but Navigon is not Google maps, doesn't have nearly the updates and POI's that Google does. Having Navigon on your iPhone eats up a ton of space, has lesser functionality than iDrive.

BJ
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Old 02-13-2013, 12:30 PM
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Right, but Navigon is not Google maps, doesn't have nearly the updates and POI's that Google does. Having Navigon on your iPhone eats up a ton of space, has lesser functionality than iDrive.

BJ
Complete maps for the state of NY takes up 47.4MB.

I'm definitely not arguing that iPhone + Maps app is in anyway superior to iDrive Navigation. I think there is a place for both. When I'm in a rental, I make do with iPhone + Navigon/etc. But every car I will ever buy will always have the built-in Nav option. I've been doing this since 2006, and will always pay for this option, no matter how good mobile devices get. In fact, built-in Nav is only getting better every year. Better traffic info, bigger screen, HUD integration. Auto manufacturers realize they have to "keep up", so that's why you see BMW, Audi, even GM/Ford really putting muscle behind their in-car infotainment systems.
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Old 02-13-2013, 12:33 PM
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The difference is that an in-car nav has all the maps for North America onboard in its memory, on a disc spinning in the trunk.

An iPhone has no maps onboard, they get drawn in realtime from a provider data connection (3G, 4G, LTE) depending on where you are.

So next week when I'm driving through the Florida Keys using my iPhone as a nav, if I lose my AT&T data connection, I have no navigation.

GPS is all around us, it's very rare you hit a dead spot. But the maps and the data, different story.

BJ
Most on board integrated navigation systems will go into a "dead reckoning" mode when they loose satellite connectectivity, which is rare but can happen if you are in a tunnel or surrounded by tall buildings or tall trees, and will continue to navigate based on the speed and direction the car is heading in. I am not sure if iDrive does this but I believe it does. Also the iDrive will mute the audio source when it has to "speak"

CA
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  #72  
Old 02-13-2013, 01:37 PM
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Most on board integrated navigation systems will go into a "dead reckoning" mode when they loose satellite connectectivity, which is rare but can happen if you are in a tunnel or surrounded by tall buildings or tall trees, and will continue to navigate based on the speed and direction the car is heading in. I am not sure if iDrive does this but I believe it does. Also the iDrive will mute the audio source when it has to "speak"

CA
Correct, i used to loose signal in brooklyn battery tunnel everytime. Then the navi would start telling me "Ferry on the way. Make a u turn if possible" WTF?
Google maps and Waze mute the radio same as built in system
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Old 02-13-2013, 01:39 PM
PK2348 PK2348 is offline
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Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
The difference is that an in-car nav has all the maps for North America onboard in its memory, on a disc spinning in the trunk.

An iPhone has no maps onboard, they get drawn in realtime from a provider data connection (3G, 4G, LTE) depending on where you are.

So next week when I'm driving through the Florida Keys using my iPhone as a nav, if I lose my AT&T data connection, I have no navigation.

GPS is all around us, it's very rare you hit a dead spot. But the maps and the data, different story.

BJ
If you loose satelite connection and the car can't calculate its location, then all of the maps loaded in your memory are pretty much worthless
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  #74  
Old 02-13-2013, 02:05 PM
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boltjaM3s boltjaM3s is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PK2348 View Post
If you loose satelite connection and the car can't calculate its location, then all of the maps loaded in your memory are pretty much worthless
I don't know what that means because I've never lost a satellite connection, ever, unless I'm in the Lincoln Tunnel for over 30 minutes.

I believe you are confusing two things:

1. Satellite Connection. This is a free wireless service that connects to military satellites in the sky. Has been around for 15+ years. So long as you are not under the ground, you have a GPS connection. As relates to this conversation, the nav in your BMW and the nav in your, say, five year old Garmin Nuvi will work 100% of the time you are not buried under ground because they store all the map data on the device itself. All the device needs is a connection to the satellite network. The satellites are a clock, merely tell the device where you are. The Nuvi or the iDrive have gigs and gigs of data onboard, just need to sync to the GPS satellites in the sky.

2. Data Connection. This is a paid wireless service most commonly used to give you text messages and internet access. Has been around in a semi-decent way for only 5 years. These connections can be very dicey, if you're near MetLife stadium on a football Sunday you can't get any data at all in a one mile radius around the place, if you're in Manhattan and signals are reflected incorrectly off of building surfaces you lose data, if you're in a dead zone in Paramus you lose LTE and only get 2G EDGE, and so on. As relates to this conversation, to use Google maps, Apple maps, or any of the free iPhone apps, you MUST have a data connection because the map data and points of interest are NOT stored on the phone; they are streamed to the iPhone over your 3G or 4G or LTE data connection in realtime as you drive.

Satellite connectivity is the easy part. Very simple set of signals from space, been going on for 15+ years. Cellphone data connectivity is hit-or-miss, costs money. If I bring my 5 year old Nuvi to Florida next week, doesn't matter if AT&T has no coverage in the Everglades; I'm still going to get precise directions. If I leave that home and bring only my iPhone 5 using Google maps for navigation, I'll always have satellite connectivity but if I lose the AT&T data connection I'm screwed, the maps will stop drawing, I'll get lost in the Everglades, have to ask an alligator for directions.

BJ
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Last edited by boltjaM3s; 02-13-2013 at 02:10 PM.
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Old 02-13-2013, 02:11 PM
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boltjaM3s boltjaM3s is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
Most on board integrated navigation systems will go into a "dead reckoning" mode when they loose satellite connectectivity, which is rare but can happen if you are in a tunnel or surrounded by tall buildings or tall trees, and will continue to navigate based on the speed and direction the car is heading in. I am not sure if iDrive does this but I believe it does. Also the iDrive will mute the audio source when it has to "speak"

CA
iDrive is very good in the tunnels, though no GPS signals are there they coordinate speed and last reported distance. If you're stuck in traffic, say 20+ minutes, then you'll get the iDrive "no signal" message until you're out again and the gyro's have recalibrated.

BJ
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