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F10 / F11 (2011 - Current)
The new chapter in the highly successful story of the BMW 5 Series Sedan (F10) and wagon (F11)

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  #101  
Old 02-10-2013, 11:43 PM
xofruitcake xofruitcake is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mryakanisachoad View Post
BMW was going to ring my brother up for tires and lease return damage until I called the dealer and told them I'd never buy another car from BMW if they did that to him. I looked at his car before he turned it in and it was fine for a lease return.

I've bought or leased over a million dollars of cars from this dealer. Maybe closer to a million and half if I added it up.

They never sent him a bill. I'm reasonably comfortable making my "accusation".

BTW - it's tough to read your writing.
Your assertion was that MSD allow manufacturer to have leverage on customer when they buy the next car. How does your story prove the point? The answer, not at all. All you are saying is that if you spend a million or a million a half with the same dealer, they cherish your business and willing to do a lot of things to make you happy. But your story has absolutely no relationship to MSD, so you are just making a baseless assertion that using MSD affect our next car purchase.
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  #102  
Old 02-11-2013, 07:13 AM
rparik01 rparik01 is offline
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Originally Posted by mryakanisachoad View Post
I'm not sure correlation would be the right word since there was definitely a mutual relation between my brother not getting hit with lease return charges and my association with BMW and the dealer.

But, I understand your point. You're claiming that my brother would not have paid a lease return charge even if he had a large deposit on the car, because of my leverage, right?

I addressed this in an earlier post. If BMW has a lot of your money, they may be disinclined to help you out if you don't spend any more money with them. In essence, you lose leverage. Leverage is a key component in any negotiation.
I was questioning your correlation between lease return charges and MSDs, and I still am. You may have addressed your concept in another post regarding BMW holding your money and that being directly related to lease charges, but you have yet to provide an example. On the other hand, multiple members have shared their repeated pleasant experiences with MSDs.

Furthermore, by providing the story of your brother you are contradicting your claim about MSDs as they tried to charge him even though he did not provide them with a large deposit. You are however re-enforcing your other thought that BMW will try to screw you if you don't continue to be a loyal customer. Regarding the latter, I believe that to be strictly a dealer by dealer experience. Again, by asserting that BMW attempted to over charge your brother not being a repeat customer has no correlation to MSDs and penalty charges.

Obviously, leverage is the crucial factor to a negotiation, but that can be obtained various ways. As far as I have seen, most BMW dealers attempt to avoid bad PR, so that alone could have saved your brother if he didn't have you to throw some weight around. If he is lucky enough to have competing BMW dealers in the area, he easily could have left your preferred dealer and tried somewhere else. Leverage can also easily be obtained by knowing the facts about what is considered "excessive wear and tear." The list is endless...
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  #103  
Old 02-11-2013, 07:14 AM
rparik01 rparik01 is offline
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Originally Posted by xofruitcake View Post
your assertion was that msd allow manufacturer to have leverage on customer when they buy the next car. How does your story prove the point? The answer, not at all. All you are saying is that if you spend a million or a million a half with the same dealer, they cherish your business and willing to do a lot of things to make you happy. But your story has absolutely no relationship to msd, so you are just making a baseless assertion that using msd affect our next car purchase.
+1
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  #104  
Old 02-11-2013, 11:26 AM
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jimpal jimpal is offline
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Originally Posted by dunderhi View Post
. . . BTW, the golden rule of leasing is not to put a penny down . .
I appreciate your knowledgeable comments on this, but I am curious about this one. Why do you say this? Doesn't it depend on the overall package?
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  #105  
Old 02-11-2013, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by jimpal View Post
I appreciate your knowledgeable comments on this, but I am curious about this one. Why do you say this? Doesn't it depend on the overall package?
As long as the interest rates are low, the financial downside of financing a few extra bucks is small, whereas the potential of losing all monies put down due to getting your car totaled or stolen has a much bigger downside. Granted it is an unlikely scenario, but the consequence can be quite large.

From a straight savings point of view, if you have $5,000 to put down on lease, you would reduce the interest cost by $450 on a 3yr 3% lease and you monthly payments would be reduced by $150/mo. If you put the $5,000 into MSDs and reduce your interest costs by about $1,800 or 50/mo, but still get your $5,000 back at the end of the lease. The MSD savings is highly dependant on the lease terms and when I get back home I recheck my own numbers, since what I am remembering is a bit low when compared to some of the other contributors.

Anyway, with the first option you will have lower lease payments, but with the second option you will have spent less on the lease.
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  #106  
Old 02-11-2013, 12:26 PM
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mryakanisachoad mryakanisachoad is offline
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Originally Posted by rparik01 View Post
I was questioning your correlation between lease return charges and MSDs, and I still am. You may have addressed your concept in another post regarding BMW holding your money and that being directly related to lease charges, but you have yet to provide an example. On the other hand, multiple members have shared their repeated pleasant experiences with MSDs.

Furthermore, by providing the story of your brother you are contradicting your claim about MSDs as they tried to charge him even though he did not provide them with a large deposit. You are however re-enforcing your other thought that BMW will try to screw you if you don't continue to be a loyal customer. Regarding the latter, I believe that to be strictly a dealer by dealer experience. Again, by asserting that BMW attempted to over charge your brother not being a repeat customer has no correlation to MSDs and penalty charges.

Obviously, leverage is the crucial factor to a negotiation, but that can be obtained various ways. As far as I have seen, most BMW dealers attempt to avoid bad PR, so that alone could have saved your brother if he didn't have you to throw some weight around. If he is lucky enough to have competing BMW dealers in the area, he easily could have left your preferred dealer and tried somewhere else. Leverage can also easily be obtained by knowing the facts about what is considered "excessive wear and tear." The list is endless...
I think we've both made our points. Your point is that a large security deposit won't be used as leverage against you for a lease return if you choose to do no more business with a company and my position is that it could be. Right?

I also think that a large security deposit limits your options in terms of assigning your lease to a third party. You may think that you would never need to assign your lease but some people would be uncomfortable losing that option.
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  #107  
Old 02-11-2013, 12:28 PM
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jimpal jimpal is offline
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Originally Posted by dunderhi View Post
. . . Anyway, with the first option you will have lower lease payments, but with the second option you will have spent less on the lease.
Thanks for the good info. BTW, in your example isn't a $150/mo. payment reduction for $5,000 down payment too much?

Last edited by jimpal; 02-11-2013 at 12:39 PM.
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  #108  
Old 02-11-2013, 12:40 PM
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mryakanisachoad mryakanisachoad is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xofruitcake View Post
Your assertion was that MSD allow manufacturer to have leverage on customer when they buy the next car. How does your story prove the point? The answer, not at all. All you are saying is that if you spend a million or a million a half with the same dealer, they cherish your business and willing to do a lot of things to make you happy. But your story has absolutely no relationship to MSD, so you are just making a baseless assertion that using MSD affect our next car purchase.
Ok, so now my "accusation" becomes an "assertion" - sounds a little better and less confrontational, thank you.

My story proves to me that the dealership has sway over determining whether or not to charge a leasee for excessive wear and tear. It also proves to me that a lessors return policy isn't set in stone.

From those facts, I can extrapolate all different sorts of scenarios.
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  #109  
Old 02-11-2013, 01:21 PM
rparik01 rparik01 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mryakanisachoad View Post
I think we've both made our points. Your point is that a large security deposit won't be used as leverage against you for a lease return if you choose to do no more business with a company and my position is that it could be. Right?

I also think that a large security deposit limits your options in terms of assigning your lease to a third party. You may think that you would never need to assign your lease but some people would be uncomfortable losing that option.
I don't want to continue on with this forever, so I will agree to disagree with almost everything you have offered. It seems as though when somebody disagrees with you, you add another element to the equation. MSDs vs. excessive lease return charges turned into leverage and now you bring up assigning your lease to a third party - another disagreement we will have.

I am going to a make a big assumption here: my assumption is that somebody looking to turn over their lease to a third party would be doing so for financial constraints not because they wanted something new (in which case they could potentially work out a deal with the new car dealer.) So if my scenario were true and we were comparing a lease with MSDs applied to that without MSDs and all else equal, the former would have the lower payment.

If the lessee was in such financial ruins that they had to give up their new BMW, they would find pleasure in being able to transfer their lower monthly payment sooner than a higher payment which will have less likely buyers.

At that point they could decide to sacrifice the MSDs in exchange for immediate third party payments as opposed to being stuck with the higher payments (no MSDs) and possibly lose tens of thousands instead of a few thousand. Many other scenarios are possible but I don't know the specifics of how a third party lease take over works i.e. leasetrader:
- work out a deal that the new lessee is not entitled to the MSDs upon return
- ask new lessee to pay for MSDs up front
- split the MSDs

After a quick scan of leasetrader.com, realizing that this conversation is really just a huge waste of time, it is evident that the majority of remaining trades (2012+ 535s) that are available are for $0 down and 780-949 a month. That does not sound like a deal to me.
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  #110  
Old 02-11-2013, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by jimpal View Post
Thanks for the good info. BTW, in your example isn't a $150/mo. payment reduction for $5,000 down payment too much?
I took the $5000 down, added $450 in savings, then divided by 36 to get $151.39, and then I rounded to the neareest whole number since it was only an example.
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  #111  
Old 02-11-2013, 01:46 PM
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mryakanisachoad mryakanisachoad is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rparik01 View Post
I don't want to continue on with this forever, so I will agree to disagree with almost everything you have offered. It seems as though when somebody disagrees with you, you add another element to the equation. MSDs vs. excessive lease return charges turned into leverage and now you bring up assigning your lease to a third party - another disagreement we will have.

I am going to a make a big assumption here: my assumption is that somebody looking to turn over their lease to a third party would be doing so for financial constraints not because they wanted something new (in which case they could potentially work out a deal with the new car dealer.) So if my scenario were true and we were comparing a lease with MSDs applied to that without MSDs and all else equal, the former would have the lower payment.

If the lessee was in such financial ruins that they had to give up their new BMW, they would find pleasure in being able to transfer their lower monthly payment sooner than a higher payment which will have less likely buyers.

At that point they could decide to sacrifice the MSDs in exchange for immediate third party payments as opposed to being stuck with the higher payments (no MSDs) and possibly lose tens of thousands instead of a few thousand. Many other scenarios are possible but I don't know the specifics of how a third party lease take over works i.e. leasetrader:
- work out a deal that the new lessee is not entitled to the MSDs upon return
- ask new lessee to pay for MSDs up front
- split the MSDs

After a quick scan of leasetrader.com, realizing that this conversation is really just a huge waste of time, it is evident that the majority of remaining trades (2012+ 535s) that are available are for $0 down and 780-949 a month. That does not sound like a deal to me.
You write that you don't want to continue and proceed to type out something longer than my doctoral thesis. lol
You already made a deal with MSD (sounds like a drug) so of course you think it's a good idea. Of course. Confirmation bias is very powerful.

Good luck with your car - you made a good decision!
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  #112  
Old 02-11-2013, 02:07 PM
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mryakanisachoad mryakanisachoad is offline
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If you assign your lease, the new leasee is credited with your deposit.
I've assumed leases in the past including one BMW. A large security deposit makes for a difficult if not impossible transaction. Persons shopping for lease assumptions generally aren't inclined to turn over a lot of cash no matter the circumstances.
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  #113  
Old 02-11-2013, 03:42 PM
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dunderhi dunderhi is offline
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Originally Posted by mryakanisachoad View Post
If you assign your lease, the new leasee is credited with your deposit.
I've assumed leases in the past including one BMW. A large security deposit makes for a difficult if not impossible transaction. Persons shopping for lease assumptions generally aren't inclined to turn over a lot of cash no matter the circumstances.
Hooray, you found a potential downside: MSDs make it harder to transfer a lease. I guess now you have reinforced you own confirmation bias for all of your great deals you have made in the past without MSDs. Congrats!

Anyway, I think most lease options have been presented here, so please buy, finance, or lease your next car in the manner that you prefer. Good luck with your choice. I am certain you will defend your decision as strongly as anyone else here.
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  #114  
Old 02-11-2013, 03:56 PM
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jimpal jimpal is offline
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Originally Posted by dunderhi View Post
I took the $5000 down, added $450 in savings, then divided by 36 to get $151.39, and then I rounded to the neareest whole number since it was only an example.
Looks good to me. Thanks again for your helpful input.
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  #115  
Old 02-11-2013, 04:11 PM
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mryakanisachoad mryakanisachoad is offline
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Originally Posted by dunderhi View Post
Hooray, you found a potential downside: MSDs make it harder to transfer a lease. I guess now you have reinforced you own confirmation bias for all of your great deals you have made in the past without MSDs. Congrats!

Anyway, I think most lease options have been presented here, so please buy, finance, or lease your next car in the manner that you prefer. Good luck with your choice. I am certain you will defend your decision as strongly as anyone else here.
Lol perhaps I'm guilty of breaking my earlier charge in this thread which was always compare apples to apples.

That said, and I think you're saying it too (more specifically writing it), there isn't a best or a right or a perfect or whatever adjective you choose way to get a vehicle.

I would never give a financing company a large deposit. Not because 5 thousand bucks is going to change my life one way another but because I don't like the idea of it. 15 or 50% interest on tip money doesn't interest me.

Last edited by mryakanisachoad; 02-11-2013 at 04:38 PM.
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  #116  
Old 02-11-2013, 04:22 PM
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mryakanisachoad mryakanisachoad is offline
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Originally Posted by dunderhi View Post
Hooray, you found a potential downside: MSDs make it harder to transfer a lease. I guess now you have reinforced you own confirmation bias for all of your great deals you have made in the past without MSDs. Congrats!

Anyway, I think most lease options have been presented here, so please buy, finance, or lease your next car in the manner that you prefer. Good luck with your choice. I am certain you will defend your decision as strongly as anyone else here.
One more thing: I've made some of the crappiest deals in car buying history. I can start with buying a 1 year old Lotus Turbo Esprit as a 24 year old because my boss told me all the depreciation comes out the first year. He was almost a billionaire at the time - he must know what he's talking about!

Should I continue? lol.

Last edited by mryakanisachoad; 02-11-2013 at 05:34 PM.
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  #117  
Old 02-11-2013, 07:16 PM
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K-A K-A is offline
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I declined MSD's on my car since I like to "put my money to work" and didn't want to sacrifice any capital. Though, the "return" would have been about 25%+ or so, which makes me think I should have just signed over the $4,500 (max amount they'd take as a MSD on my car). I sort of regret not doing it, but I chalk it up also to cold feet in giving a deposit, i.e if they'd try and "screw me" on the return, like find more reasons to deduct portions, or if the car got in an accident, etc. (most of which have been answered here), so I guess I wasn't "comfortable".

Would have been nice to save over $50 a month on my Lease and get the amount back at Lease end though!
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  #118  
Old 02-11-2013, 09:45 PM
PeterC4 PeterC4 is offline
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This turned into quite a thread. Let me try to give it a balanced perspective. MSD's are really cash collateral that lower the overall interest rate on a lease. The implied return is pretty good given what you have to post as collateral to get the "reported" reductions in interest and corresponding lease payments. Now to say, with some confidence, there is no risk in these MSD's and that their return to the customer, at least in part, are not at risk would be unrealistic. There has to be some risk or they wouldn't attract the return they do. Is it better than a lease down-payment? Interesting perspective. A lease down-payment is nothing more than that...a lump sum lease payment paid up-front to lower the lease payments. An MSD is cash collateral that lowers the future monthly lease payments in the same manner, but is (theoretically returned) when the lease is up. From a financial point of view an MSD is better. Is it a "security deposit" in name only...doubt it. If something goes wrong, you are likely at risk for some of it.
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  #119  
Old 02-11-2013, 09:52 PM
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Originally Posted by PeterC4 View Post
This turned into quite a thread. Let me try to give it a balanced perspective. MSD's are really cash collateral that lower the overall interest rate on a lease. The implied return is pretty good given what you have to post as collateral to get the "reported" reductions in interest and corresponding lease payments. Now to say, with some confidence, there is no risk in these MSD's and that their return to the customer, at least in part, are not at risk would be unrealistic. There has to be some risk or they wouldn't attract the return they do. Is it better than a lease down-payment? Interesting perspective. A lease down-payment is nothing more than that...a lump sum lease payment paid up-front to lower the lease payments. An MSD is cash collateral that lowers the future monthly lease payments in the same manner, but is (theoretically returned) when the lease is up. From a financial point of view an MSD is better. Is it a "security deposit" in name only...doubt it. If something goes wrong, you are likely at risk for some of it.
That's what I keep thinking. BMW isn't trying to give out free money. There HAS to be something in it for them, that they would realistically try and utilize, for giving you such a great return on your money?

But, proof would be in the pudding. Maybe a thread with a "hands up" for those who have gotten back MSD's once or more than once with no problems would be helpful.
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  #120  
Old 02-11-2013, 09:59 PM
PeterC4 PeterC4 is offline
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That's what I keep thinking. BMW isn't trying to give out free money. There HAS to be something in it for them, that they would realistically try and utilize, for giving you such a great return on your money?

But, proof would be in the pudding. Maybe a thread with a "hands up" for those who have gotten back MSD's once or more than once with no problems would be helpful.
If you take care of it, you are probably okay. All they do is use the security deposits to finance more leases. If you want to take residual risk, you can do all of this on your own. You know what would be good...residual insurance! Make sure I can trade my car at a specified price.
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  #121  
Old 02-12-2013, 01:42 AM
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That's what I keep thinking. BMW isn't trying to give out free money. There HAS to be something in it for them, that they would realistically try and utilize, for giving you such a great return on your money?

But, proof would be in the pudding. Maybe a thread with a "hands up" for those who have gotten back MSD's once or more than once with no problems would be helpful.
Let's see the F10 has tires that bubble, rims that bend, surges in acceleration, pulls to the right, has drivetrain malfunctions, etc. All of these issues have been well documented here.

BMW's MSD program has been around since 2006 (?) and I haven't seen the hundreds of posts where BMW is using the MSD program to take advantage of its customers.

I seen similar paranoia when newbies are introduced to the European Delivery program. After all why would BMW give you a big discount to pick up a car in Germany? There's got to be a catch.
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  #122  
Old 02-12-2013, 02:02 AM
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mryakanisachoad mryakanisachoad is offline
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Let's see the F10 has tires that bubble, rims that bend, surges in acceleration, pulls to the right, has drivetrain malfunctions, etc. All of these issues have been well documented here.

BMW's MSD program has been around since 2006 (?) and I haven't seen the hundreds of posts where BMW is using the MSD program to take advantage of its customers.

I seen similar paranoia when newbies are introduced to the European Delivery program. After all why would BMW give you a big discount to pick up a car in Germany? There's got to be a catch.
As a former Porsche guy, you could certainly understand this noob being paranoid about getting a discount to pick up a car Germany, yes?
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  #123  
Old 02-12-2013, 02:26 AM
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As a former Porsche guy, you could certainly understand this noob being paranoid about getting a discount to pick up a car Germany, yes?
Well that would explain a lot. Sometimes I think Porsche doesn't like their customers at all.

Without turning this into an ED thread, BMW's ED program is great! I am on ED #3 for BMW right now and I'm about to head out the door to whatch the Dance of the Market Women as part of their Fasching events.
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  #124  
Old 02-12-2013, 09:05 AM
mryakanisachoad's Avatar
mryakanisachoad mryakanisachoad is offline
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Location: brooklyn,ny
 
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Mein Auto: 550xi / 135i / M5
Quote:
Originally Posted by dunderhi View Post
Well that would explain a lot. Sometimes I think Porsche doesn't like their customers at all.

Without turning this into an ED thread, BMW's ED program is great! I am on ED #3 for BMW right now and I'm about to head out the door to whatch the Dance of the Market Women as part of their Fasching events.
I've never done it but everyone I know who has marks it as one of their best experiences in life.

*edit

You're there right now?!?! (((jealous)))

Is Garmisch one of your destinations? (((really jealous)))

Last edited by mryakanisachoad; 02-12-2013 at 09:11 AM.
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  #125  
Old 02-12-2013, 09:51 AM
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cordoor cordoor is offline
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Location: Utah
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mryakanisachoad View Post
I've never done it but everyone I know who has marks it as one of their best experiences in life.

*edit

You're there right now?!?! (((jealous)))

Is Garmisch one of your destinations? (((really jealous)))
Ok I have to know. Sorry for the hijack.

mryakanisachoad: What watch are you sporting in your avatar?
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