Are all X5's from South Carolina?

Originally Posted by bkhk

Even BMW knows their build quality is poor, they only fix squeaks and rattles for 12 months after new purchase under warranty.

This is not the policy in the US

Originally Posted by bkhk

Quack

Not even people here in Australia laud the build quality of a Holden, which is a GM car = USA (again) Not many people drive them here which is why they will not survive. I have had 2 RRS and neither has had creaking plastics or a rattling tailgate. Even BMW knows their build quality is poor, they only fix squeaks and rattles for 12 months after new purchase under warranty. Land Rover don't have such a restriction.

Kzang

Maybe you have difficulty with English comprehension or you don't read further back than 2 posts. BUT, I have been clear in my build quality criticisms, creaking poor quality plastics and a rattling (probably poorly aligned) tailgate which is documented in many places on this forum.

My point is that any serious discussion of 'build quality' as a result of the workforce, MUST involve data. We have people here comparing their experiences with different models, different years, different marques..yet blithely attributing 'build quality' differences to the country of manufacture/assembly. (And 'build quality' is apparently 'any rattle'??? Really? I mean that is just an astonishingly stupid assertion. Lets go back to grade school and the venn diagrams- a rattle can be a sign of poor assembly; poor assembly can cause rattles; but all rattles are not always due to faulty assembly...there is a great big portion of the circles where rattles can be due to poor design and poor assembly instructions...among others.)

You want to hold firm on your personal bias of "anything german (or not american) is best, and the american workers are bad", you are free to do so. But it is laughable. (I must note that when quack pointed out the Holden was a POS car built in Australia, you felt the need to imply this was, apparently, due to the "GM=USA(Again)" effect... we have a name for this: DBAggery...or just being bigoted and intellectually dishonest.)



I'll bet BMW has a pretty good idea of workforce skill and the impact on product quality... do you think anyone would EVER be able to get near it?

Originally Posted by maxeaus

And yet you bought one.

Reliability is pretty low on my list of priorities when I'm shopping for a car. I expect that the more complex a car is, the more likely that it will have some issues. I'll take excitement over reliability anyday.

http://autos.jdpower.com/ratings/dep...ss-release.htm

Originally Posted by RockChips

http://autos.jdpower.com/ratings/dep...ss-release.htm

That's horrble! 71% of Lexus owners wil have a problem with their car.

ard

First, I have never mentioned Germany or German Built vehicles in my posts. Second, Holden is a GM company. I have never seen a GM car which I would consider well built (wherever assembled) but that's MY interpretation, obviously many people think they are fine.

Whether its due to design or assembly, who knows. Since there are no X5s made anywhere other than SC, it is not possible to gather data. Build quality is subjective, even to seasoned vehicle testers. They frequently disagree in test articles, I am sure you have seen that. In my subjective opinion, whether it be to poor design or assembly, there are 2 or 3 areas on the X5 which were missed at LCI. They spoil an otherwise good car. If your cure for rattles and squeaks on a $100k (in Australia) car is to ignore them or turn up the radio then fine. Maybe at your age you are hard of hearing. Maybe if you paid $100k you would think differently. Or maybe you just don't like anyone disagreeing with your domineering style and rudeness. Maybe it upsets you that I criticise a product built in the USA.

I am certainly not anti American. I have previously lived in the USA for 5 years. My company buys and operates exclusively US made aircraft in preference to European aircraft. I visit the US regularly and have many American friends who are like family after 20-30 years. You are just not one of them.

German one is better in my opinion.

Originally Posted by dunderhi

That's horrble! 71% of Lexus owners wil have a problem with their car.

You are misinterpreting the results. Based on your statement, it would be true to say 220% of Land Rover customers will have problems.... which is not the case.

One owner may have 10 problems in his one car and one owner may have no problems...

Based on that study, Lexus is the MOST reliable

Originally Posted by boostedX5SAV

You are misinterpreting the results. Based on your statement, it would be true to say 220% of Land Rover customers will have problems.... which is not the case.

One owner may have 10 problems in his one car and one owner may have no problems...

Based on that study, Lexus is the MOST reliable

Actually, I would have joked 100% of Land Rover owners have at least one problem. Without the mean and standard deviation there is no way of telling the percentage of owners affected, but these surveys don't seem to be about getting useful data out to the public. Anyway I think you missed the at the end of my joke.

The real joke is what is called reliability in these surveys. Most of the issues cited in these surveys are "problems" that do not prevent the car from getting you from point A to point B in a reliable manner. It's been a couple of decades since I had a car break down on the side of the road leaving me stranded. On the other hand my string of German made cars (BMW, Mercedes, & Audi) each had warranty problems that had zero effect on the car's mobility, but were reportable offenses for these surveys.

Finally, based on the survey, Lexus has the least number of reported problems by Lexus owners. I won't bother getting into the biases in these types of surveys...

Originally Posted by dunderhi

Reliability is pretty low on my list of priorities when I'm shopping for a car..... I'll take excitement over reliability anyday.

Yeah, everyone has different priorities, often depending upon how they use their vehicle. Since I use mine for long trips in the West, often in areas where there is no cell phone coverage, and crossing deserts where 110 degrees in the Summer is not unusual, I myself put reliability high on my list. If, OTOH, I drove mostly in major urban areas I would probably move reliability down the priority list.

Originally Posted by Kar Don

Wow it is fascinating! First of all it's not my sig, it's in my profile. To clarify, I have had an e46, e46 coupe, e70, f10 and f02. This means I've had German, USA, and SA built cars. Too bad, you must've felt like you nailed it! Sucks to have your bubble burst.

So what you meant to say is "I have had BMW's assembled in Germany and the US and I prefer the ones assembled in Germany." Which is a lot different than your original comment That said, made in Germany all the way for me (when it comes to BMW)! You have difficulty expressing yourself clearly, yet you can quibble when someone calls your sig your profile. You truly are full of sh*t .

Originally Posted by bkhk

Quack

Not even people here in Australia laud the build quality of a Holden, which is a GM car = USA (again) .

Do you realize how bi-polar you sound? You originally argued that the place of ASSEMBLY is a critical issue for you, and that a BMW assembled in Spartanburg is "worse" than a BMW assembled in Germany. Then in your next post, you state the Holden is a piece of crap, not because of where it was assembled, but because of where the parent company is located. You can't have it both ways.

Good to hear you are not biased against goods manufactured / assembled in the US. I would like to think that I am not biased against goods manufactured / assembled in Oz. Except the only one I can think of is that POS Holden. Do you guys manufacture anything at all that is worth exporting? (And that roo piss called Foster's doesn't count).

The reality is that if a manufacturer is going to sell a vehicle at a given price point with a reasonable profit, they must make some compromises. For the E70, BMW's emphasis was handling, so fit and finish may have been a lower priority. That works fine for me, and probably for the majority of folks on this board. If my priorities had been reversed, I would likely have a Lexus. (Though certainly not a Range, as I need my ride to be reliable).

Sadly, BMW seems to be losing their way. Our F10 has beautiful fit and finish, but it lacks the steering feel and driving excitement of prior BMW's. I suspect the next gen X5 will be similarly impaired, so it may be more to your liking.

As long as you can get over your silly prejudice about where the vehicle is assembled.

"Do you guys manufacture anything at all that is worth exporting?" -- Well, there is always Nicole Kidman!
Back in the day, I seem to remember that VW and MB also had plants in Oz and turned out some credible iron. Of course Ford did as well (may still do) and there was Holden which back many years ago was quite a nice car. They had a thing called a "ute" which we would know as an El Camino in Chevy guise -- Ford had their own version called a Ranchero as well.

Originally Posted by dunderhi

Anyway I think you missed the at the end of my joke.

Yes, you are right. I didn't know if you were because you thought Lexus was unreliable or if you were joking.

"Our F10 has beautiful fit and finish, but it lacks the steering feel and driving excitement of prior BMW's."
We are in Maui now and we have a Camaro vert. rental. At a glance there are no surprises, the plastics lacks any quality feel, the rag top lock mechanism is a hit and miss and the suspension is fussy giving the blocky unneccessary huge chassi a life of it's own. The tranny is super smooth and responsive but never feels like it locks up. However the steering is shocking for an American car, it has IMO way better feel and weight than any F-series BMW,modern Audi, MB or Lexus and it tracks true and calm with no play on center and this is on 55 profile tires. It seems that as the art of making good steering is dropped by BMW it's finally discovered by the Americans.

In regards to the steering, I think BMW is just caving in to the "majority" of the consumers that buy their cars.. these consumers also look at Lexus and MB for their soft supple, brain numbing steering feel and rides.
Perhaps it is a new trend that is highly sought out by these new consumers... I don't know.. I do understand fully that the F10 had horrible steering feel compared to my E60... One of the reasons why I came to a E70.

Originally Posted by Kzang

In regards to the steering, I think BMW is just caving in to the "majority" of the consumers that buy their cars.. these consumers also look at Lexus and MB for their soft supple, brain numbing steering feel and rides..

This +1,000,000

When I was first researching the X5d, 50% of the complaints on research sites were criticizing the heavy steering and complaining about how wives couldn't stand parking them because they took so much arm strength.

It's in my top 5 favorite things about my X.

Jay

Originally Posted by jashearer

This +1,000,000

When I was first researching the X5d, 50% of the complaints on research sites were criticizing the heavy steering and complaining about how wives couldn't stand parking them because they took so much arm strength.

It's in my top 5 favorite things about my X.

Jay

I do you one better, it's my no. 1 favourite thing about the X5. It's also the one area where it's IMO clearly superior to the Cayenne.

FWIW, the steering is definitely lighter in our '12 compared to the '10. Where the '10 is almost too heavy in my opinion, the '12 is just about perfect. Don't know if it is the tires (Bridgestone's on the '10 vs Michelins on the '12) or if BMW did something with the LCI after the complaints.

Originally Posted by Penguin

Actually, I've noticed the reverse, with the German-source vehicles in the show room, such as a 5 series, having worse orange peel than my 2004 Red Z4 and my 2010 Space Gray X5.

Someone please tell me what "Nationality" are those computers and spray arms that put on the paint ??? It is obvious that you have never visited the plant and observed the process ? Too many of you here have been watching the "rebuild" shows on TV where they actually mix and paint each car by hand ...The closest a human gets to the paint process is updating the program when changes are made and the plant does not write the program, just installs it and the paint is premixed prior to shipment .....probably in India or some exotic place..

The whole manufacturing process for the last 50 yrs was to take as much out of human hands as possible..and for good reason...you cannot relay on consistency with a changing
undisciplined workforce you cannot fire for incompetency...wait that is the schools...

Originally Posted by Kzang

In regards to the steering, I think BMW is just caving in to the "majority" of the consumers that buy their cars.. these consumers also look at Lexus and MB for their soft supple, brain numbing steering feel and rides.

I do not feel that consumers had anything to do with it. It is mostly attributed to the electric steering & BMWs desire for all their vehicles to have Efficent Dynamics (BMW Marketing tactics). More & more manufacturers are moving to electric steering to help improve MPG.

Porsche has also been receiving complaints over their new electric steering in the new 991 (911) & 981 (Boxster).


Hydraulic Power Steering V/S Electric Power Steering

Hydraulic power steering is a primitive technology used for decades and has improved a lot with time. Earlier, it did not have any difference in steering response with speed of the car, but the new age of hydraulic power steering are speed sensitive and work better than the older hydraulic power steering.

Electric power steering are comparatively new technology with less complicated build and mechanism, takes less space and are more durable. Electric power steering use sensors to sense the car speed and will take care of the different steering response required for different speeds.

Some of the main differences are as below:

1. Hydraulic Power Steering System is complicated compared with Electric Power Steering

2. Hydraulic Power Steering System usually weighs more than Electric Power Steering

3. Hydraulic Power Steering uses hydraulic fluids for operation whereas there is no such fluid needed for Electric Power Steering, thus Electric Power Steering needs less maintenance compared to hydraulic power steering.

4. Electric Power Steering gives better response at different speeds as compared to Hydraulic Power Steering

5. Electric Power Steering is less prone to problems and faults and are more durable as compared to Hydraulic power steering.

6. Hydraulic power steering extracts power from engine, so it reduces the fuel mileage of the engine. Electric power steering consumes power from battery which is also charged by engine, but it consumes less power compared to Hydraulic power steering. So a car having Electric power steering will give more mileage than one with Hydraulic power steering.

Originally Posted by finnbmw

FWIW, the steering is definitely lighter in our '12 compared to the '10. Where the '10 is almost too heavy in my opinion, the '12 is just about perfect. Don't know if it is the tires (Bridgestone's on the '10 vs Michelins on the '12) or if BMW did something with the LCI after the complaints.

Our '13 steering is heavier than our former '07. '13 has 20s w/ Bridgestones whereas the '07 had 19s w/ Bridgestones when new & later Michelins.

Originally Posted by jashearer

This +1,000,000

When I was first researching the X5d, 50% of the complaints on research sites were criticizing the heavy steering and complaining about how wives couldn't stand parking them because they took so much arm strength.

It's in my top 5 favorite things about my X.

Jay

And I'll return the +1,000,000. :-)

My mother in law has a 2010 Toyota highlander and every time I drive her SUV and then return to my X5 I really appreciate the heavier feel of the steering. On the highlander the steering was so light that I could not tell how much I was turning. It was almost like I was steering a bicycle.

The OP simply asked about whether the X5 was only made from SC. Question Answered, thread done.

Instead of that, we the clowns aka all those, including myself made this into a reliability debate/b*$@#-fest. LOL


We should probably move the reliability debate/b*^&^-fest to the general BMW/Off topic section lol

The hydraulic vs Electric steering debate WTF, the OP never asked LOL! Again General BMW lol.

Originally Posted by NoI4plz

The OP simply asked about whether the X5 was only made from SC. Question Answered, thread done.

Instead of that, we the clowns aka all those, including myself made this into a reliability debate/b*$@#-fest. LOL


We should probably move the reliability debate/b*^&^-fest to the general BMW/Off topic section lol

The hydraulic vs Electric steering debate WTF, the OP never asked LOL! Again General BMW lol.
__________________
BMW and Mercedes Build Beta Products!
Lexus build Release Candidate Products!

Why does this matter?
CAUSE EVERY TIME someone says Lexus has better build quality, one should consider what Toyota their Lexus Engine and chassis platform comes out of and how long that part has been tested in the real world!

Looking at your signature, it would appear, as you suggest above, that all of your posts belong in the Off Topic forum.

Just an interesting tidbit on manufacturing quality. For a while in the recent past, the Ford Wixom plant was rated as putting-out the highest quality vehicles of any major automotive manufacturing plant worldwide. (Wixom has since been closed due to dropping the Towncar/Crown Vic)

Most people in the industry put this down to the fact the Wixom plant was manufacturing Lincoln Towncars and Crown Victorias -- cars that hadn't changed much for 15-20 years, i.e., if you do the same thing for a long, long time you can get very good at it!

"[2007] For the first time since 1999, a North American assembly plant receives the Platinum Plant Quality Award for producing vehicles yielding the fewest defects. Ford Motor Company's Wixom assembly plant in Michigan, which produced the Lincoln Town Car, averages just 35 PP100"

"BMW's Regensburg, Germany, plant, which produces the BMW 3 Series Coupe and 3 Series Sedan, receives the Gold Plant Quality Award for Europe. Earning the Silver Quality Plant Award is the DaimlerChrysler Sindelfingen, Germany, plant, which produces the Mercedes-Benz C-Class, CL-Class, CLS-Class, E-Class Sedan, E-Class Wagon, and S-Class. Volkswagen of America's Neckarsulm, Germany, plant, which produces the Audi A6 Avant, A6 Sedan, A8 Sedan, RS 4 Sedan, S6 Sedan and S8 Sedan, receives the Bronze Plant Quality Award."

Which tends to support the idea that manufacturing quality depends more on the management and product design, than the physical location.

Originally Posted by dunderhi

Looking at your signature, it would appear, as you suggest above, that all of your posts belong in the Off Topic forum.

The signature is to ward off the Lexus Leather Dash lovers who tend to point the amazing reliability of their snooze mobiles with outdated tech as a quality that makes them better than their German counterparts.



I expect the Lexus Leather Dash Lover Pac to come with a with my name on it any second now...