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E90/E91/E92/E93 (2006 - 2013)
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  #1  
Old 02-11-2013, 06:09 PM
bobkat09 bobkat09 is offline
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Waterless Coolant

I just watched an episode of Wheeler Dealers where they replaced water based coolant with a waterless coolant. They talked about the many advantages of it including being able to handle higher engine temperatures and being a lifetime coolant.

I admit that this is the first I've heard of this and know nothing about it. Is this something that would work in our BMWs?
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  #2  
Old 02-11-2013, 07:24 PM
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floydarogers floydarogers is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobkat09 View Post
I just watched an episode of Wheeler Dealers where they replaced water based coolant with a waterless coolant. They talked about the many advantages of it including being able to handle higher engine temperatures and being a lifetime coolant.

I admit that this is the first I've heard of this and know nothing about it. Is this something that would work in our BMWs?
IMHO, it's just snake oil. I've looked at the Evans website: that's a good place to start. Yes, it will work (probably) in a BMW.

But the "higher engine temperature": garbage, as there is only one thermostat available, and the ECU won't let it get higher. BMW engines use electronically-controlled thermostats to run at high temp for efficiency anyway. Even if you could change the programming and/or thermostat, other engine pieces might well not handle them - and think about putting higher temp coolant into the radiator/expansion tank, which have already proven themselves to be fragile.

Anti-corrosion? BMW (and others) specify low-phosphate low-silicate coolant for that very reason.

Lifetime: you probably won't spend as much money on BMW coolant over the cars' lifetime as it would take to convert to waterless.

And the Evans coolant is arguably more dangerous to the environment as the ethylene glycol in your standard coolant.
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  #3  
Old 02-11-2013, 07:44 PM
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fun2drive fun2drive is offline
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Great advice from someone that ISN'T using the product.
For what it is worth I have used Evans NPG for 9 years in my Ford SuperDuty Diesel and for 6 years in my M3 and will never need to change the coolant again. As soon as I hit about 70K miles on my E93 I will change the water pump out and the tstat then covert to Evans and forget BMW or anyother coolant.

Anyone in racing and over the roads trucks have been using this for years.
It is an excellent product and I have no affiliation whatsoever with Evans.

One note if you wanted to you can run a totally unpressurized coolant system as I did in my SuperDuty since the boiling point is someplace around 370F or so.
I can't verify their claims but the users I talked too had nothing but good things to say about Evans...
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  #4  
Old 02-11-2013, 08:51 PM
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floydarogers floydarogers is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fun2drive View Post
Great advice from someone that ISN'T using the product.
For what it is worth I have used Evans NPG for 9 years in my Ford SuperDuty Diesel and for 6 years in my M3 and will never need to change the coolant again. ...
Whatever, dude. Glad you like it. But please note that you did not rebut any of my points... Your opinions are not likely to change the facts: for the great majority of BMW owners, there is little or no reason to use it.
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  #5  
Old 02-11-2013, 09:37 PM
HPIA4v2 HPIA4v2 is offline
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I heard some people use wetting agent, claims it run cooler since it conduct better than just 50/50 coolat distilled water. But I have a feeling the engine is controlled by thermostat on how much the flow from water-pump, so at the end the engine will run at operating temp regardless. Hard to substantiate claims, if you believe it then use it; just don't tell the neighbors.
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  #6  
Old 02-12-2013, 03:35 AM
mr_bean mr_bean is offline
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The engineers at BMW spent a lot of time designing the cooling system, including the formulation of the coolant itself. Trying to one up them is pointless.
Unless the engine is heavily modified and the stock cooling system can't handle the extra load causing the engine to overheat, then it's not worth monkeying around with it, IMHO.

Evans may make a great product, but why bother? Flushing coolant every few years is no big deal.
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  #7  
Old 02-12-2013, 06:09 AM
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CALWATERBOY CALWATERBOY is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by floydarogers View Post
IMHO, it's just snake oil. I've looked at the Evans website: that's a good place to start. Yes, it will work (probably) in a BMW.

But the "higher engine temperature": garbage, as there is only one thermostat available, and the ECU won't let it get higher. BMW engines use electronically-controlled thermostats to run at high temp for efficiency anyway. Even if you could change the programming and/or thermostat, other engine pieces might well not handle them - and think about putting higher temp coolant into the radiator/expansion tank, which have already proven themselves to be fragile.

Anti-corrosion? BMW (and others) specify low-phosphate low-silicate coolant for that very reason.

Lifetime: you probably won't spend as much money on BMW coolant over the cars' lifetime as it would take to convert to waterless.

And the Evans coolant is arguably more dangerous to the environment as the ethylene glycol in your standard coolant.

Waterless heat exchange fluids have been around 40 years or more for industrial use. They deliver real benefits as described, but, yup, car's not designed or programmed for that. Could easily be in the design phase, but that's long gone and BMW will be of no help here.

Low phosphate & silicate are spec'd to avoid solids formation w/associated mechanical corrosion - both can be corrosion inhibitors and phosphate is a common scale inhibitor in combo w/other materials but hardness salts thereof will abrade & impinge - silica is particularly good at causing seal failure.

See, here's the thing: Water is very successfully inhibited and remains available & cost effective. There is little motivation to go waterless.

.

Last edited by CALWATERBOY; 02-12-2013 at 06:20 AM.
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  #8  
Old 02-12-2013, 06:16 AM
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CALWATERBOY CALWATERBOY is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fun2drive View Post
Great advice from someone that ISN'T using the product.
For what it is worth I have used Evans NPG for 9 years in my Ford SuperDuty Diesel and for 6 years in my M3 and will never need to change the coolant again. As soon as I hit about 70K miles on my E93 I will change the water pump out and the tstat then covert to Evans and forget BMW or anyother coolant.

Anyone in racing and over the roads trucks have been using this for years.
It is an excellent product and I have no affiliation whatsoever with Evans.

One note if you wanted to you can run a totally unpressurized coolant system as I did in my SuperDuty since the boiling point is someplace around 370F or so.
I can't verify their claims but the users I talked too had nothing but good things to say about Evans...

Whoa, F2D! Pull back on them reins!


Your ride's rather tightly engineered to specific temperature limits. Going up is ill advised - metal changes dimension at higher temps, and according to Dr. Murphy, the famous Irish Mechanical Engineering PhD, unpredictable results may occur!
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  #9  
Old 02-12-2013, 06:27 AM
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DSXMachina DSXMachina is offline
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It's my understanding that nothing beats pure water for its ability to pick up heat, move it, and release it where desired. Of course there are many reasons using pure water in our engines would be a major mistake. Therefore it's neccessary to come up with a blend which will meet all the demands placed on it over a 'lifetime'.
One thing I wonder about this Evans product is how well it transfers heat. Sure it may have a higher boiling point, but it'll need it if it is an inefficient heat transfer medium. Anyone have independent graphs showing how well Evans does at its core job, moving heat? Then I wonder about what the long term effects are on rubber (hoses), other non-metallic components (seals), and adjacent dissimilar metals (pressed in cylinder liners for instance). OEMs have multi million dollar test budgets and a hundred years experience with ethylene glycol. They're sticking with it, so am I.
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  #10  
Old 02-12-2013, 06:38 AM
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CALWATERBOY CALWATERBOY is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSXMachina View Post
It's my understanding that nothing beats pure water for its ability to pick up heat, move it, and release it where desired. Of course there are many reasons using pure water in our engines would be a major mistake. Therefore it's neccessary to come up with a blend which will meet all the demands placed on it over a 'lifetime'.
One thing I wonder about this Evans product is how well it transfers heat. Sure it may have a higher boiling point, but it'll need it if it is an inefficient heat transfer medium. Anyone have independent graphs showing how well Evans does at its core job, moving heat? Then I wonder about what the long term effects are on rubber (hoses), other non-metallic components (seals), and adjacent dissimilar metals (pressed in cylinder liners for instance). OEMs have multi million dollar test budgets and a hundred years experience with ethylene glycol. They're sticking with it, so am I.

Well, the point of high boiling point and specific heat fluids is to move more heat per volume per flow, delivering performance gains, often to avoid using steam and/or to lower capital costs. Waterless heat exchange fluids are developed to optimize that, and scale/corrosion inhibition - they're much better than water for their intended use, and that includes equipment designed for them.
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  #11  
Old 02-12-2013, 06:48 AM
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DSXMachina DSXMachina is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CALWATERBOY View Post
Well, the point of high boiling point and specific heat fluids is to move more heat per volume per flow, delivering performance gains, often to avoid using steam and/or to lower capital costs. Waterless heat exchange fluids are developed to optimize that, and scale/corrosion inhibition - they're much better than water for their intended use, and that includes equipment designed for them.
Understood. I just did some research on Evans coolants. Their supporting tech info has a lot of weasel wording which makes me suspicious of any real benefit to using the product in street cars.
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  #12  
Old 02-12-2013, 07:41 AM
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floydarogers floydarogers is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by floydarogers View Post
And the Evans coolant is arguably more dangerous to the environment as the ethylene glycol in your standard coolant.
I'm kind of wrong about this. Ethylene glycol kills you fast, propylene kills you slow; it's generally "safer".

OT: Reading all this reminded me (for some reason) of nuclear reactor design. When they were figuring out how to cool them, they had to choose something that would slow but not absorb neutrons, yet be able to carry off waste heat. The choices really were Helium, Water (including heavy water), and Sodium. Sodium melts at around 97 C IIRC, it's a metal that carries much more heat than water, and doesn't boil until 883 C. But there are reasons that it hasn't been used in many reactors...

BTW, the thermal conductivity of water is much higher than either of the glycols: http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/th...ds-d_1260.html
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  #13  
Old 02-12-2013, 08:35 AM
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Zooks527 Zooks527 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by floydarogers View Post
I'm kind of wrong about this. Ethylene glycol kills you fast, propylene kills you slow; it's generally "safer".[/url]
Propylene pretty much kills you not at all. With an LD50 of 20g/kg, the typical adult would need to ingest 3.5 pounds of the stuff at a sitting before having a 50/50 chance of dying. It's used extensively in various personal care products and is often a constituent in artificial vanilla extract.

Big push to use it in commercial cooling systems for the "environmental friendliness". Problem is pressure loss in the piping systems when it gets cold, as the viscosity runs up faster than ethylene. Past 50% in water with either of them and the thermal transfer performance of the system goes all to hell. Very often used in systems contacting pharmaceutical products, as the consequences from a leak into the product far less.
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Last edited by Zooks527; 02-12-2013 at 08:38 AM.
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