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7 Series - F01 / F02 (2009 - current)
The new re-designed 7 series F01 / F02 leads off the BMW Fxx chassis code!

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  #1  
Old 02-13-2013, 06:13 PM
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azbimmer azbimmer is offline
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BMW Dependability Below Industry Average

No surprise here, given how many problems I have seen in the 3 BMWs I have owned. Look at Porsche and Mercedes: Right up there with Lexus/Toyota/Honda.



Make PP100 (problems per 100 vehicles)
Lexus 71
Porsche 94
Lincoln 112
Toyota 112
Mercedes-Benz 115
Buick 118
Honda 119
Acura 120
Ram 122
Suzuki 122
Mazda 124
Chevrolet 125
Industry Average 126
Ford 127
Cadillac 128
Subaru 132
BMW 133
GMC 134
Scion 135
Nissan 137
Infiniti 138
Kia 140
Hyundai 141
Audi 147
Volvo 149
MINI 150
Chrysler 153
Jaguar 164
Volkswagen 174
Jeep 178
Mitsubishi 178
Dodge 190
Land Rover 220
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Last edited by azbimmer; 02-13-2013 at 06:15 PM.
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  #2  
Old 02-13-2013, 06:37 PM
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Saw that as well, I'm a bit skeptical of any broad brand-based reliability study. As with any statistic it can be skewed in whatever direction you want it to go. Sometimes they refer to problems as "cupholder design" and other BS issues. I've had 3 Chryslers, 2 Jeeps and a Dodge and only one of my Jeep's I had to fight to have it lemoned from DaimlerChrysler. The rest were completely bulletproof, so I don't buy these studies sometimes. My previous Dodge Charger SRT8 had no issues, no quality issues either. Chrysler is mostly the same apart from the Panoramic roof creaking.

I can't say I'm sold on BMW's build quality, I love my car just glad I'm leasing it. I'd definitely feel more confident getting a Merc if I had to keep it for 7+ years. Too bad S Classes are (too) common around SoCal, makes them less special when you see them everywhere.
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Last edited by ChrisF01; 02-13-2013 at 06:41 PM.
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  #3  
Old 02-13-2013, 06:39 PM
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Mercedes impresses me - they suffered from this prior and have apparently turned it around. What's sad is all of the import brands worse then BMW. Land rover seems to continually suck so no surprise there.
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Old 02-13-2013, 09:44 PM
Deutsch100 Deutsch100 is offline
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Very surprised to see Audi and Volvo so low. I always thought they were very reliable. My last Range Rover (2011 Supercharged, Full Size) was 100% flawless. I had it about 18-20 months, and it was as reliable as a Lexus. Very shocked to see Jaguar so low, the past few years they were up with Lexus and Porsche in reliability!
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Old 02-14-2013, 05:16 AM
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Leslierc Leslierc is offline
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Makes me wonder about the types of "problems" being registered by owners. Of the 6 BMWs I've owned so far, only one had to be brought in for unscheduled service and that was my first one, a 645Cic convertible, to replace one of the sensors that affected the operation of the top. I recently experienced a series of "fault codes" with the engine in my Pana. The dealer fixed it, but what was most impressive to me was how thoroughly they tested to car to ensure that the problem was corrected. They also delivered the car to my home after the repairs were made. For me, the moral is always "bad things happen", what matters more are the things that are done to compensate and make corrections.
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Last edited by Leslierc; 02-14-2013 at 08:08 AM.
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Old 02-14-2013, 06:32 AM
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in this thread: anecdotes versus statistics of unknown statistical significance

i too wonder what exactly constitutes a "problem"... "wheels fell off" versus "cupholder design made me spill my "


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Old 02-14-2013, 08:08 AM
dbs600 dbs600 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leslierc View Post
The dealer fixed it, but was was most impressive to me was how thoroughly they tested to car to ensure that the problem was corrected.
Therein lies the rub(!); this vs. BMW's "cannot verify complaint" culture. How I'd love to experience level of service you've stated.

Last edited by dbs600; 02-14-2013 at 09:11 AM.
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  #8  
Old 02-14-2013, 09:17 AM
Deutsch100 Deutsch100 is offline
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Originally Posted by dbs600 View Post
Therein lies the rub(!); this vs. BMW's "cannot verify complaint" culture. How I'd love to experience level of service you've stated.
I have always found BMW and Mercedes to rely on the 'Could not duplicate' answer and solution to anything that was not a simple, mechanical fix. They just do not care. They have so many cars and so many issues to deal with!! I found Range Rover Service however, to be quite good actually; it seemed they really cared and really tried!

Rolls Royce Service, even though a BMW Group Brand, is unbelievably amazing. The level of care, concern, time and precsision given is totally out of this world. After dealing with Rolls Royce, it will be very, very hard to return to BMW :-O
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  #9  
Old 02-14-2013, 11:56 AM
likegadgets likegadgets is offline
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My experienced is different. I leased several Lexus LS - the '04 was the most perfect car I owned. However I very much disliked the 2007 LS (last one I had) - had noise issues, design flaws (such as the wind noise and the door pillars constantly being damaged), a couple of recalls, they changed windows, pillars, door switches). Went back to the dealer many times. An the Toyota attitude to service had dramatically deteriorated by 2007.

My 2010 750 was very good - only issue was a bad sound AMP in the first few months and then only regular service. I am enjoying the 2013 - 750 that replaced it - so far perfect (and keeping fingers crossed)
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  #10  
Old 02-14-2013, 01:14 PM
dbs600 dbs600 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deutsch100 View Post
I have always found BMW and Mercedes to rely on the 'Could not duplicate' answer and solution to anything that was not a simple, mechanical fix. They just do not care. They have so many cars and so many issues to deal with!! I found Range Rover Service however, to be quite good actually; it seemed they really cared and really tried!
I CAN'T AGREE MORE (almost always on the same page, Deutsch!). I too have a Range Rover and even with the MILLION problems I've had, they ALWAYS acknowledge and fix same; how long before the same problem needs to be fixed again is another story.

Nevertheless, BMW's "Cannot Duplicate" shenanigans are truly disgusting.

Last edited by dbs600; 02-14-2013 at 08:15 PM.
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  #11  
Old 02-14-2013, 03:21 PM
AdamG13 AdamG13 is offline
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+1 on this. BMW are the only cars I've owned that the dealer has ever given me the "cannot duplicate" response. I've fought them every time until they've fixed the issues, but having to act like a dick to the service guys gets old after a while.
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  #12  
Old 02-14-2013, 04:59 PM
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ChrisF01 ChrisF01 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leslierc View Post
Makes me wonder about the types of "problems" being registered by owners. Of the 6 BMWs I've owned so far, only one had to be brought in for unscheduled service and that was my first one, a 645Cic convertible, to replace one of the sensors that affected the operation of the top. I recently experienced a series of "fault codes" with the engine in my Pana. The dealer fixed it, but what was most impressive to me was how thoroughly they tested to car to ensure that the problem was corrected. They also delivered the car to my home after the repairs were made. For me, the moral is always "bad things happen", what matters more are the things that are done to compensate and make corrections.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deutsch100 View Post
Very surprised to see Audi and Volvo so low. I always thought they were very reliable. My last Range Rover (2011 Supercharged, Full Size) was 100% flawless. I had it about 18-20 months, and it was as reliable as a Lexus. Very shocked to see Jaguar so low, the past few years they were up with Lexus and Porsche in reliability!
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Originally Posted by AdamG13 View Post
+1 on this. BMW are the only cars I've owned that the dealer has ever given me the "cannot duplicate" response. I've fought them every time until they've fixed the issues, but having to act like a dick to the service guys gets old after a while.
Just my opinion & guess here...

Remember that BMW is a volume luxury seller. If they don't find a fault code or something they can duplicate, they'll just give it back to you with the cannot duplicate or whatever nomenclature they use.

My guess is that Land Rover, Porsche, Rolls-Royce and other small(er) volume manufacturers might have more time and less backlog to work on individual cars. To me that would explain why MB and BMW are more apt to throw that response back so quickly; Because they're busy, and have to strike a balance between trying to fix and satisfy you the customer, and keep the line of cars coming into service, so there is not a long line to piss off other customers.

Again just a guess
Chris
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Old 02-14-2013, 08:25 PM
dbs600 dbs600 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisF02 View Post
My guess is that Land Rover, Porsche, Rolls-Royce and other small(er) volume manufacturers might have more time and less backlog to work on individual cars. To me that would explain why MB and BMW are more apt to throw that response back so quickly; Because they're busy, and have to strike a balance between trying to fix and satisfy you the customer, and keep the line of cars coming into service, so there is not a long line to piss off other customers.
Can only speak w/r/t Land Rover (MB, BMW, Lexus, Chevrolet and GMC), but sorry, Chris, that's complete rubbish. Land Rover's are problem plagued and their service centers are always bustling - max capacity - at least by me. Scale has nothing to do with the 'balance' between incompetence and arrogance many BMW dealerships exude; obviously corporate culture at play. There's no excuse. This is customer service 101 - get it done right the first time instead of having the customer return 2, 3 or 4 times. It's shameful and has made me lose faith in a company once loved; sad.

Last edited by dbs600; 02-14-2013 at 10:43 PM.
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Old 02-14-2013, 09:50 PM
Deutsch100 Deutsch100 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbs600 View Post
I CAN'T AGREE MORE (almost always on the same page, Deutsch!). I too have a Range Rover and even with the MILLION problems I've had, they ALWAYS acknowledge and fix same; how long before the same problem needs to be fixed again is another story.

Nevertheless, BMW's "Cannot Duplicate" shenanigans are truly disgusting.
Word Brother! I've had 3 Range Rovers (1 nightmare, 1 so so and 1 Flawless) and Service was always top notch. Even if the same issues came up, they always tried to resolve them quickly,

Seriously, this "Cannot Duplicate" BS has somewhat burned me with Mercedes and BMW. My last 3-4 BMWs and at least 8 Mercedes....the dealers either tried to blame problems on me or just say no problem exsisted. I would tell them: "Do you really think I want to ruin my day and very valuable time, make up a problem and then come here and try and sell you my imaginary car problem"? BMW and Mercedes burn bridges left and right, IMO!
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Old 02-14-2013, 10:02 PM
mr29 mr29 is offline
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interesting

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Old 02-14-2013, 10:33 PM
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Originally Posted by dbs600 View Post
Can only speak w/r/t Land Rover (MB, BMW, Lexus, Chevrolet and GMC), but sorry, Chris, that's complete rubbish. Land Rover's are problem plagued and their service centers are always bustling - max capacity - at least my by me. Scale has nothing to do with the 'balance' between incompetence and arrogance many BMW dealerships exude; obviously corporate culture at play. There's no excuse. This is customer service 101 - get it done right the first time instead of having the customer return 2, 3 or 4 times. It's shameful and has made me lose faith in a company once loved; sad.
Again just a guess, the Porsche dealership in the same automall where I had gotten my BMW is rarely busy. Thats either a really good sign of Porsche quality/reliability, people go elsewhere for service, or like I guessed maybe just low volume = no waiting for service.

And as far as BMW dealerships go, I guess I'm more fortunate than most. Mine is FANTASTIC, I do recommend BMWs to friends and family, and to go to that dealer because their service department is just that good. They've repeatedly bent over backwards for me, and went out of their way to accommodate me several times when I first had issues with my 7er. Dealers are all different, its the people more so than the dealer as a whole. Its a shame they treat you poorly after you're paying for such an expensive car.
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Old 02-14-2013, 10:58 PM
dbs600 dbs600 is online now
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Dealers are all different, its the people more so than the dealer as a whole. Its a shame they treat you poorly after you're paying for such an expensive car.
There's no question there are exceptions, but there's something to be said about the overall corporate culture, which I believe centers on corporate being overly strict (stricter than its peers) in reimbursing dealer work, which results in dealers not investigating many legitimate customer complaints, causing the customers to leave and return with the same problem, which results in waste and pissed off customers(!); time is money.

Otherwise, I'm not treated poorly (wouldn't have that!), as they pull this BS with a [fake] smile, which ironically makes matters more difficult because instead of reacting, the customer must make to first move to inflame matters.

Last edited by dbs600; 02-16-2013 at 09:06 PM.
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Old 02-16-2013, 05:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deutsch100 View Post
I have always found BMW and Mercedes to rely on the 'Could not duplicate' answer and solution to anything that was not a simple, mechanical fix. They just do not care. They have so many cars and so many issues to deal with!! I found Range Rover Service however, to be quite good actually; it seemed they really cared and really tried!

Rolls Royce Service, even though a BMW Group Brand, is unbelievably amazing. The level of care, concern, time and precsision given is totally out of this world. After dealing with Rolls Royce, it will be very, very hard to return to BMW :-O
When you spend that much on a car, the level of service should commensurate.
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