Drivetrain Malfunction... Again!!!

Originally Posted by svp66

Agree that there are differences between residual values. But as residual values go, I think they are useful when you sell rather than when you buy. The rapid drop in value works in your advantage if you buy a used car. Pick up a 1-2 year old CPO MB, BMW, Porsche (or the more rarefied brands) at a sharp discount, then keep it for 7-8 years. The difference in depreciation between brands at that point (9-10 years) is not worth talking about. Of course if you use the car for only couple years, it is a different story.

I get easily bored by cars, so for me the best option is a lease. As stated before here, BMW leases are hard to beat. That way I can enjoy an awesome car, and not worry about the repair costs. Last time I checked the price for work at BMW /MB /Porsche was certainly not cheap.

Very true about the CPO option. I usually buy and hold for quite a while. But that does bring up long term repair costs, as you mention are very high. And given the original subject of this thread, if 1 year old 2012's are having these kind of problems, I don't want to think of the bills 6-8 years down the road for a 650. And as this would be a weekend/pleasure car for me, not sure a lease would be to my best interest. I really like the 6 series, but starting to look at other options.

Got an update from my SA, he said all eight fuel injectors will be replaced. I should have the car back by tomorrow. Let's see what happens. I would advise against keeping these cars long term, especially after the warranty expires. The scary truth is that cars are becoming more advanced, the cost of maintaining and repairing is increasing tremendously. The turbo repair on my F02 would have cost upwards of $25k. These cars are not great investments, enjoy it while you can, and move on to a new one before the warranty runs out.

Originally Posted by hammadurb

Got an update from my SA, he said all eight fuel injectors will be replaced. I should have the car back by tomorrow. Let's see what happens. I would advise against keeping these cars long term, especially after the warranty expires. The scary truth is that cars are becoming more advanced, the cost of maintaining and repairing is increasing tremendously. The turbo repair on my F02 would have cost upwards of $25k. These cars are not great investments, enjoy it while you can, and move on to a new one before the warranty runs out.

Glad you got in fixed. But I mean all 8 injectors bad on a 1 year old car? I mean what is happening to German quality? Happened to pick up a copy of Consumer reports at the barber and it has the quality ratings. All top performers are Japanese brands.
BMW was all over the map, some models good (328, 535) others bad (550, x3)
and the worst was the 7 series - "much worse than average" rating. Nothing for 6 series as it was too new a model to have data. Audi was best German brand quality wise. All cars are getting more advanced, but really gets me we can't buy a $90,000 high end car to keep long term.

Is the fuel injector issue in your car similar to the HPFI issues BMW was having in the past?

Would an independent shop charge 25 large? Seems as if your could get a new engine for that price.

A thing of beauty is only skin deep.

That was my problem - it just happened in two episodes (one bank of injectors each).

Do you guys have the piezo electronic fuel injector system? I understand these are complicated and expensive.

Originally Posted by Ace535i

Is the fuel injector issue in your car similar to the HPFI issues BMW was having in the past?

Would an independent shop charge 25 large? Seems as if your could get a new engine for that price.

A thing of beauty is only skin deep.

Ace, I believe that the HPFI issue was prior to 2008 and was the first gen valvtronic engine. This is the 2nd gen so I believe that they are separate issues. BTW, for 25K, you can get more than 1 engine!!!

I just got my car back with the same issue. Injectors were replaced at a cost of about 3500.00. Thank god is was covered by the warrantee.

I have had the same drive train malfunction problem with a 7 series. It started just 3 weeks after i bought a CERTIFIED pre owned w 20,000 miles. i had to bring it back for the same problem 4 times within 8 weeks. BMW North America told me it was fixed and that my only option was to get into another vehicle and absorb a $20,000 loss on the 7 series that i owned for less than 2 months. STunning response from the manufacturer given the fact that the vehicle presents a recurring dangerous condition. The 20k loss part almost made me fall out of my chair in the Dealerships managers office.

Originally Posted by yeti11

I have had the same drive train malfunction problem with a 7 series. It started just 3 weeks after i bought a CERTIFIED pre owned w 20,000 miles. i had to bring it back for the same problem 4 times within 8 weeks. BMW North America told me it was fixed and that my only option was to get into another vehicle and absorb a $20,000 loss on the 7 series that i owned for less than 2 months. STunning response from the manufacturer given the fact that the vehicle presents a recurring dangerous condition. The 20k loss part almost made me fall out of my chair in the Dealerships managers office.

veti, you should have made that manager part of that chair!!!

Originally Posted by Ace535i

Is the fuel injector issue in your car similar to the HPFI issues BMW was having in the past?

Would an independent shop charge 25 large? Seems as if your could get a new engine for that price.

Sadly, in the F02, the HPFI was also an issue for me. Later it became the fuel injectors and spark plugs and eventually the turbos gave out. The SA explained, besides the parts, it's the labor that would have been substantial. They had to take out the engine and transmission. They had to take the engine apart and clean off all the carbon deposits and then put everything back together. They had my car for a full month. I only paid $50 which was the deductible for the warranty so I'm happy.

Originally Posted by mrjoed2

... if 1 year old 2012's are having these kind of problems, I don't want to think of the bills 6-8 years down the road for a 650. And as this would be a weekend/pleasure car for me, not sure a lease would be to my best interest. I really like the 6 series, but starting to look at other options.

I think you should not be immediately discouraged by the 6 series. Probably the 2012 has more issues than 2013 or 2014, but I suspect the people with real problems are still a minority. Most of the owners tend to post when they have issues. I bet if you go on MB / Porsche forums, you will find similar threads.

That being said, I had the same drivetrain malfunction issue on day 2 of my lease. The dealer replaced the injector pump on one side the very same day, filled tank, and gave me an iPhone craddle - nice service, I'd say. 12,000 miles later no problem at all. I agree that I would not like to own such an expensive to fix car outside of a waranty though.

Next time they don't have a loaner for me, I think I'll tell them that they can buy my silence and cooperation for the low, low cost of a credit for an iPhone 5 cradle (whenever they finally get around to selling one - likely the week the next iPhone is announced ).

Originally Posted by svp66

I think you should not be immediately discouraged by the 6 series. Probably the 2012 has more issues than 2013 or 2014, but I suspect the people with real problems are still a minority. Most of the owners tend to post when they have issues. I bet if you go on MB / Porsche forums, you will find similar threads.

That being said, I had the same drivetrain malfunction issue on day 2 of my lease. The dealer replaced the injector pump on one side the very same day, filled tank, and gave me an iPhone craddle - nice service, I'd say. 12,000 miles later no problem at all. I agree that I would not like to own such an expensive to fix car outside of a waranty though.

I get your point, but still have a hard time with the frequency & severity of the problems many have had with new 650's. Another info source from consumer reports surprisingly shows BMW and Benz V8 versions of the same model had much worse reliability
compared to the V6 versions. Very strange. My reading of many posts does bear this out - numerous people reporting bad injectors, fuel pumps, plugs ect. on the 650 V8. Now maybe the 2013/14 models have improved on this, like to hear from some folks with '13's for input. All cars can have problems, but the 6 is a flagship model, I frankly expect better than this for almost 6 figures.

BMW corporate policy is a another concern, look at the poor guy with the CPO 7 series. I mean don't they back up a CPO with any warranty? And I know it's now a throwaway society, but if you can't plan to keep a premium top of the line car past the warranty period, it's a sad state of affairs for sure.

Just to put in a contrarian view of CPO... I bought a CPO'd 2007 650 vert in fall of 2010 with 34K miles off a single owner/lease. Sticker was $97K and I got it for less than $40K. Now, 2.5 years later, I have had several major issues fixed under CPO for either $50 or $0. For example, the dealer adjusted and replaced convertible top sensors a couple of times, replaced the vacuum pump and seals to fix oil leak, replaced mechantronics sleeve and tranny pan to fix tranny fluid leak, etc. All of these were done with no hassle, a free loaner car (as long as I scheduled in advance) and with great service.

So, all in all, I'm happy with the CPO program and will likely buy a CPO 2013 vert with low miles in a couple of years when they come back in off lease (which is why I've been cruising this forum

Someone should check the 5er boards. Same N63 engine as our 2012s. Here's one guy with no drivetrain problems.

Originally Posted by gregb

Just to put in a contrarian view of CPO... I bought a CPO'd 2007 650 vert in fall of 2010 with 34K miles off a single owner/lease. Sticker was $97K and I got it for less than $40K. Now, 2.5 years later, I have had several major issues fixed under CPO for either $50 or $0. For example, the dealer adjusted and replaced convertible top sensors a couple of times, replaced the vacuum pump and seals to fix oil leak, replaced mechantronics sleeve and tranny pan to fix tranny fluid leak, etc. All of these were done with no hassle, a free loaner car (as long as I scheduled in advance) and with great service.

So, all in all, I'm happy with the CPO program and will likely buy a CPO 2013 vert with low miles in a couple of years when they come back in off lease (which is why I've been cruising this forum

Very glad you have had good experience with your CPO. Problem is it seems BMW is becoming like corvette - one guy loves his/no problems, the next is a living nightmare of issues/bad corporate support. I honestly think BMW is having quality control issues.

Originally Posted by mrjoed2

I get your point, but still have a hard time with the frequency & severity of the problems many have had with new 650's. Another info source from consumer reports surprisingly shows BMW and Benz V8 versions of the same model had much worse reliability
compared to the V6 versions. Very strange. My reading of many posts does bear this out - numerous people reporting bad injectors, fuel pumps, plugs ect. on the 650 V8. Now maybe the 2013/14 models have improved on this, like to hear from some folks with '13's for input. All cars can have problems, but the 6 is a flagship model, I frankly expect better than this for almost 6 figures.

BMW corporate policy is a another concern, look at the poor guy with the CPO 7 series. I mean don't they back up a CPO with any warranty? And I know it's now a throwaway society, but if you can't plan to keep a premium top of the line car past the warranty period, it's a sad state of affairs for sure.

That's where we are sadly.. I've owned several high end cars used. I owned a 2003 Range Rover and I had warranty repairs in excess of $20k.. Transmission, Alternator, Radiator, and more all went on this car before the clock ticked passed 100k miles.

I owned a 2006 650 before my current one. I had an issue with active steering that one repair was $3500.. This was before the clock hit 60k miles.. This is all in addition to scheduled maintenance etc. I sold the car at 75k miles because there were some issues that I didn't not want to deal with as the car aged. I say all that to say this. Planned obsolescence is real and I truly believe these cars are engineered to run problem free until the warranty period is up. Which usually coincides with when the original owner moves on to a new vehicle and an unsuspecting 2nd owner has to deal with the headache of maintaining a money pit.

I mean it's no coincidence that most dealerships make the lion share of their money through the service department and the sale of used cars. It's all put together to systematically Rob folks of their coins or their peace of mind. For me I would rather lease and fix my costs and know that if anything happens I am covered.

I had this problem as well in my 550i. They updated the software stating that the code for the faulty fuel injectors wasn't present. They checked the fuel injectors as well, and said they were fine. I haven't really had any problems with the car. I was a bit paranoid when I got it back, and I thought I felt the engine misfire - I pulled over and re-started the engine and no further issues. I'll be interested to see what happens to those of you who had the injectors changed and those who only had the software update.

Originally Posted by EmM HoLLa

That's where we are sadly.. I've owned several high end cars used. I owned a 2003 Range Rover and I had warranty repairs in excess of $20k.. Transmission, Alternator, Radiator, and more all went on this car before the clock ticked passed 100k miles.

I owned a 2006 650 before my current one. I had an issue with active steering that one repair was $3500.. This was before the clock hit 60k miles.. This is all in addition to scheduled maintenance etc. I sold the car at 75k miles because there were some issues that I didn't not want to deal with as the car aged. I say all that to say this. Planned obsolescence is real and I truly believe these cars are engineered to run problem free until the warranty period is up. Which usually coincides with when the original owner moves on to a new vehicle and an unsuspecting 2nd owner has to deal with the headache of maintaining a money pit.

I mean it's no coincidence that most dealerships make the lion share of their money through the service department and the sale of used cars. It's all put together to systematically Rob folks of their coins or their peace of mind. For me I would rather lease and fix my costs and know that if anything happens I am covered.

I agree with you overall assessment of the situation. But would like to add planned obsolescence is usually refereed to as a product being engineered to be out of date quickly - not necessarily of bad quality or workmanship. Computers or a Ipad would be a good example. But this is a little different. And I would have to add that on this subject many are having problems within the first year of the new car, well before anywhere near the end of warranty period is involved. Let's call it was it is, if a product's components are designed to last no more than the warranty period - we would normally call it a lousy, or low quality item- be a TV, lawn mower or $100K car. Hate to think of BMW as the new Range Rover as their quality history is sadly horrific, as is their countryman Jaguar.

Leasing normally is a good alternative, as you turn in the keys every 2-4 years - but in my case I am looking for something nice that can be a keeper as it will be a low mileage pleasure car. Maybe it's a fruitless search.

Originally Posted by mrjoed2

I agree with you overall assessment of the situation. But would like to add planned obsolescence is usually refereed to as a product being engineered to be out of date quickly - not necessarily of bad quality or workmanship. Computers or a Ipad would be a good example. But this is a little different. And I would have to add that on this subject many are having problems within the first year of the new car, well before anywhere near the end of warranty period is involved. Let's call it was it is, if a product's components are designed to last no more than the warranty period - we would normally call it a lousy, or low quality item- be a TV, lawn mower or $100K car. Hate to think of BMW as the new Range Rover as their quality history is sadly horrific, as is their countryman Jaguar.

Leasing normally is a good alternative, as you turn in the keys every 2-4 years - but in my case I am looking for something nice that can be a keeper as it will be a low mileage pleasure car. Maybe it's a fruitless search.

I have never really compared a lease to a purchase, I lease my car through the company so it just makes more sense for me.

But if a $100,000 car costs about $1100 a month for a lease, in 6 years that would be $79200 while being able to change cars after 3 years. If you purchased that car would it really be worth much more than $20,000 after 6 years? The lease will probably end up costing a little more, but you will also have a new car after 3 years and you will never have to worry about not having a warranty. Considering the reliability of luxury cars these days it's very possible the lease might actually save you money.

From the play "Oliver", "I'm reviewing the situation". Sounds logical. But if they can't make them reliable, what's the point of even owning the brand?

In February I leased a 2013 640i GC and drove the car for two days when the problems began. The sattelite radio was cutting on and off along with the bluetooth. The dealership replaced the radio but this did not fix the problem. I was told a new amplifier would need to be ordered from Germany. I've been out of my car since the 25 of February and the dealer provided me with his personal 640i GC to drive until my car is fixed. I can only say positive and great things about this north Alabama dealership. I was also told if this doesn't fix the problem, the next step would be a trade assist. Several cars ago, I had a trade assist on a late model 2005 545i and was given an early model 2007 550i to finish out my remaining 3 year lease. This dealership support for their customers is the reason I have continued to do business with them for 16 years.

Originally Posted by Designer Girl

In February I leased a 2013 640i GC and drove the car for two days when the problems began. The sattelite radio was cutting on and off along with the bluetooth. The dealership replaced the radio but this did not fix the problem. I was told a new amplifier would need to be ordered from Germany. I've been out of my car since the 25 of February and the dealer provided me with his personal 640i GC to drive until my car is fixed. I can only say positive and great things about this north Alabama dealership. I was also told if this doesn't fix the problem, the next step would be a trade assist. Several cars ago, I had a trade assist on a late model 2005 545i and was given an early model 2007 550i to finish out my remaining 3 year lease. This dealership support for their customers is the reason I have continued to do business with them for 16 years.

I can understand your loyalty. It sounds like your dealership provides exceptional service. By the way, I am on the side of this argument that these are unfortunate problems but that, overall, BMWs are quality products.

Originally Posted by mrjoed2

I get your point, but still have a hard time with the frequency & severity of the problems many have had with new 650's. Another info source from consumer reports surprisingly shows BMW and Benz V8 versions of the same model had much worse reliability
compared to the V6 versions. Very strange. My reading of many posts does bear this out - numerous people reporting bad injectors, fuel pumps, plugs ect. on the 650 V8. Now maybe the 2013/14 models have improved on this, like to hear from some folks with '13's for input. All cars can have problems, but the 6 is a flagship model, I frankly expect better than this for almost 6 figures.

BMW corporate policy is a another concern, look at the poor guy with the CPO 7 series. I mean don't they back up a CPO with any warranty? And I know it's now a throwaway society, but if you can't plan to keep a premium top of the line car past the warranty period, it's a sad state of affairs for sure.

I believe it goes back to the dealer as to what they are willing to do for a customer. As I posted above, I have received exceptional treatment/service from my dealer. They were instrumental in getting me a trade assist in 2007, and will do the same again if the 2013 640i GC is not fixed. I also received my first payment statement and it has a zero balance. BMW Financial has waived the first payment since I am not in the car though I'm driving the dealer's personal 640i GC.