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  #1  
Old 02-20-2013, 07:48 AM
hughfr4nc15 hughfr4nc15 is offline
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INPA Values and DISA Rattle - Need Opinion

Hello,

I bought an E46 318i (M43) a couple of months ago. Although it was/is in a very good condition, I'm a meticulous guy so I've done some maintenance on it:

- Fuel Filter
- Oil Filter
- Polen Filter
- Air Filter
- Engine Oil
- Gearbox Oil
- Differential Oil
- V-Belts and Pulleys
- Oil Filter Cover O-Ring and Gasket
- Spark Plugs

At the moment there are two things that are bugging me the most, first some INPA Values that I would like some opinions:






1 - Load Value: What causes this, from what i've read maybe MAF?
2 - Ignition Angle Degree: Any thoughts?
3 - Pulse duty factor: ICV? MAF?
4 - Lambda Sensor Voltage Before KAT: This oscillates quite a bit @ idle, defective?
5 - Rough Values: Cylinder 4 used to be near or higher than max value, then I replaced all the spark plugs and it lowered. What do you think of this values? Why is Cylinder 3 always around 0?

Error 171 is also showing up on INPA.

Second, I hear some rattling when I'm driving mostly around 2500 rpm. I believe it might be the DISA. Below is a recording I've made with my phone placed near it, what's your opinion? From what I've seen in other videos it seems like it needs to be replaced...

Thanks in advance!

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  #2  
Old 02-20-2013, 02:05 PM
mr_bean mr_bean is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hughfr4nc15 View Post

1 - Load Value: What causes this, from what i've read maybe MAF?
2 - Ignition Angle Degree: Any thoughts?
3 - Pulse duty factor: ICV? MAF?
4 - Lambda Sensor Voltage Before KAT: This oscillates quite a bit @ idle, defective?
5 - Rough Values: Cylinder 4 used to be near or higher than max value, then I replaced all the spark plugs and it lowered. What do you think of this values? Why is Cylinder 3 always around 0?

Error 171 is also showing up on INPA.

Second, I hear some rattling when I'm driving mostly around 2500 rpm. I believe it might be the DISA. Below is a recording I've made with my phone placed near it, what's your opinion? From what I've seen in other videos it seems like it needs to be replaced...

Thanks in advance!

  #3  
Old 02-20-2013, 03:07 PM
hughfr4nc15 hughfr4nc15 is offline
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Errm... It might be me but I can only see you quoting me..!?
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  #4  
Old 02-21-2013, 03:40 AM
mr_bean mr_bean is offline
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Weird. I can see it.
Here's a repost:
1. Load value is a calculated percentage of total power that the engine is currently producing. Engine off=0, wide open throttle at peak power RPM = 100.
2. This is the ignition timing from TDC. Obviously, this will change under different driving conditions.
3. I believe this is the duration of fuel injector pulses. Larger duty factor means more fuel is being delivered to the engine.
4. It's perfectly normal for this value to fluctuate in a sine pattern while the engine is running. Frequency of the sine wave increases with RPM. If the post cat sensor is fluctuating, then you have a problem. This one should remain constant for any given engine load/speed.
5. This is an indication of quality of spark delivered by the spark plug. It calculates this by looking at the voltage drop across the low tension side of the ignition coil immediately before and after the spark is delivered. A high value indicates cylinder misfire. It would make sense that the values went down after replacing the plugs. The ideal value for all cylinders is zero.

Does inpa give a description of code 171? Usually it does. That info would be helpful

Not sure about the rattle.
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  #5  
Old 02-21-2013, 03:46 AM
hughfr4nc15 hughfr4nc15 is offline
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Thanks for yout comment.

The message is in German but I believe it is Check Fuel Supply System. From my "googling" this error is common with the symptoms/values I have in the screens.

1. I'm planning on replacing my DISA and also clean MAF, the throttle body and the ICV, I guess it would help if any of the sensors is gone already.
5. Do you think it might be worth to check the Wires or Coil? Or these are acceptable values? Can I test them without buying new ones?
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  #6  
Old 02-21-2013, 04:14 PM
mr_bean mr_bean is offline
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Chances are that the coils and wires are not causing the error codes. Cleaning the MAF and replacing the DISA are likely to help. Do that first, clear the code and see what happens. While you're under the hood, check the intake boot between the MAF and throttle body for cracks and tears (very carefully, removing them for inspection, ideally).
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  #7  
Old 02-22-2013, 03:40 AM
hughfr4nc15 hughfr4nc15 is offline
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Will do.

I'll post the results after.
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  #8  
Old 03-11-2013, 03:22 AM
hughfr4nc15 hughfr4nc15 is offline
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I've cleaned my ICV, throttle body and MAF and no big difference in INPA values. Idle is a bit more steady though. The boot between the MAF and the throttle body is ok, no cracks.
I plan to replace the DISA ASAP.






I also plan to replace the wires based to try to improve the rough values. IMO the car seems a bit hesitant sometimes when driving.
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Last edited by hughfr4nc15; 03-11-2013 at 03:25 AM.
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  #9  
Old 11-24-2013, 08:02 AM
gmak2012 gmak2012 is offline
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What was the final result

Bump.
Did you ever get the "!" to go away on the load?
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  #10  
Old 11-25-2013, 03:09 AM
hughfr4nc15 hughfr4nc15 is offline
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Hello,

I haven't checked lately but i guess not.
Already replaced most common parts that cause this symptoms (MAF, ICV, CCV + Hose, O2 Sensor, Spark Plus, Cables, Injectors Breather Pipes (were cracked)...). One of this days I noticed that when I sprayed Carb cleaner to the area around and below the intake manifold the revs go up so there is definitely a leak in that area and my plan would be to replace the hose (Nr17) and gasket (Nr7).

After replacing the gaskets and hose I'll recheck the values again after a few km's to see if it improved anything.

Cheers.
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  #11  
Old 11-25-2013, 04:37 AM
gmak2012 gmak2012 is offline
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Thumbs up 'brigado

Quote:
Originally Posted by hughfr4nc15 View Post
Hello,

I haven't checked lately but i guess not.
Already replaced most common parts that cause this symptoms (MAF, ICV, CCV + Hose, O2 Sensor, Spark Plus, Cables, Injectors Breather Pipes (were cracked)...). One of this days I noticed that when I sprayed Carb cleaner to the area around and below the intake manifold the revs go up so there is definitely a leak in that area and my plan would be to replace the hose (Nr17) and gasket (Nr7).

After replacing the gaskets and hose I'll recheck the values again after a few km's to see if it improved anything.

Cheers.


I've done the vacuum hose / intake manifold replacement recently, on a 1998 528i. Also did the secondary air pump and the control valve (the metal one on the exhaust manifold that looks like the Tin Man's head). I spent two days this weekend reading threads and it seems that my symptoms point to the pre-cat oxygen sensors followed by the catalytic converter itself.

I've ordered the sensors and I'm really really hoping that that is the issue. The idea of spending 1000 -$2000 on the cats is not a pleasant thought. I think first that I will do a ittle checking on the injectors (using the volmeter showed them to be fine). In the spring, I'll pull the plugs and check them (were ony changed 10 - 15K miles ago) for clues. I'm running rich and the gas is coming from somewhere, or else the sensors are feeding the ECU false information. Car runs great apart from those numbers in INPA. I've got -30 on sensor additive adaptive (both of them). My load and ICV air both have "!" on them. I really wish that I had an enclosed garage to deal with this. Maybe I can find some space to rent for a day.


ON a side note - where does that hose go to? Is it the one to the brake boost assist under the cabin filter? (different engine...).
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  #12  
Old 11-25-2013, 04:57 AM
hughfr4nc15 hughfr4nc15 is offline
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The other side of the hose is the Nr. 5 in this picture.
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  #13  
Old 01-28-2014, 05:41 AM
gmak2012 gmak2012 is offline
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Talking Explanation for Load

I did some research and found an explanation of the LOAD "!" in INPA. It is a calculated value that is:

[MAF air mass / Maxium air mass] x [Sea level pressure / Barometric Pressure]

The MAF air mass is the reading from the MAF. I believe that Maximum air mass is a value stored in a table in the DME (BMW's acronym for ECU - the Electronic Control Unit) that is based upon RPM. Sea level pressure is a constant. The Barometric Pressure is a reading from the Altitude sensor, which in the M52-type set up is usually in front of the passenger-side strut "cap" in the engine.

What this says to me is that if the MAF is fine, and the data tables (ECU) are not corrupt, then that "!" comes from a value out of range due to the Barometric Pressure. There is a DIY by cn90 where he replaces the vacuum hose attached to the sensor.

I'm going through my 'next 15 years' pro-active maintenance schedule on my 1998 528i. As part of this, I will take a look at the altitude sensor, because replacing the MAF and the Throttle position sensor, along with new coils, has not eliminated the "!". When it didn't, this told me that there was some other factor besides the MAF involved in its derivation.

If the altitude sensor DIY, or replacment if needed, doesn't eliminate the "!", then I'm not going to worry about it. My car seems to run fine anyway - but I think that this might eventually manifest itself in some error code if there is really something wrong (I have NEVER had a CEL or SES light come on in the 10 years that I've had this car).

The ICV air reading "!" is something else entirely and I haven't gotten my head around that one yet.

The ignition angle is usually a table lookup. If the actual retard / advance angle for the spark explosion (based on where the piston is in its cycle and how close to the explosion when the spark is initiated ) is not the same as the table (based on RPM and engine load) then it is flagged with a "!". The car is still running fine - but only because the DME is compensating for something that is out of whack - albeit admirably.

The idle injector time is right beside the ignition angle and it shows how long the injectdor is open. Too long at idle means too much fuel and running rich - and then one should be able to see the lambda adaptation be negative to compensate. I don't know what too long means - I've seen an M5 with 4 ms described as being too rich, but I reallly don't know and this will require more research.

Here is a link to the basics of tuning that provides some insight into the relationship between ignition angle, rpm, and load.

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=493245

If you do the google search here in Bimmer fest on 'lambda control fuel trim', the first item that shows up is a PDF that is the Baum Tools guide to fuel trim which explains how the whole closed loop cycle works. It has the formula for Load.

Happy hunting.


Quote:
Originally Posted by hughfr4nc15 View Post
Hello,

I haven't checked lately but i guess not.
Already replaced most common parts that cause this symptoms (MAF, ICV, CCV + Hose, O2 Sensor, Spark Plus, Cables, Injectors Breather Pipes (were cracked)...). One of this days I noticed that when I sprayed Carb cleaner to the area around and below the intake manifold the revs go up so there is definitely a leak in that area and my plan would be to replace the hose (Nr17) and gasket (Nr7).

After replacing the gaskets and hose I'll recheck the values again after a few km's to see if it improved anything.

Cheers.
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  #14  
Old 01-29-2014, 07:05 AM
gmak2012 gmak2012 is offline
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Mein Auto: 2006-530xi; 1998-528i
Boy was I wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gmak2012 View Post
I did some research and found an explanation of the LOAD "!" in INPA. It is a calculated value that is:

[MAF air mass / Maxium air mass] x [Sea level pressure / Barometric Pressure]

The MAF air mass is the reading from the MAF. I believe that Maximum air mass is a value stored in a table in the DME (BMW's acronym for ECU - the Electronic Control Unit) that is based upon RPM. Sea level pressure is a constant. The Barometric Pressure is a reading from the Altitude sensor, which in the M52-type set up is usually in front of the passenger-side strut "cap" in the engine.

What this says to me is that if the MAF is fine, and the data tables (ECU) are not corrupt, then that "!" comes from a value out of range due to the Barometric Pressure. There is a DIY by cn90 where he replaces the vacuum hose attached to the sensor.

I'm going through my 'next 15 years' pro-active maintenance schedule on my 1998 528i. As part of this, I will take a look at the altitude sensor, because replacing the MAF and the Throttle position sensor, along with new coils, has not eliminated the "!". When it didn't, this told me that there was some other factor besides the MAF involved in its derivation.

If the altitude sensor DIY, or replacment if needed, doesn't eliminate the "!", then I'm not going to worry about it. My car seems to run fine anyway - but I think that this might eventually manifest itself in some error code if there is really something wrong (I have NEVER had a CEL or SES light come on in the 10 years that I've had this car).

The ICV air reading "!" is something else entirely and I haven't gotten my head around that one yet.

The ignition angle is usually a table lookup. If the actual retard / advance angle for the spark explosion (based on where the piston is in its cycle and how close to the explosion when the spark is initiated ) is not the same as the table (based on RPM and engine load) then it is flagged with a "!". The car is still running fine - but only because the DME is compensating for something that is out of whack - albeit admirably.

The idle injector time is right beside the ignition angle and it shows how long the injectdor is open. Too long at idle means too much fuel and running rich - and then one should be able to see the lambda adaptation be negative to compensate. I don't know what too long means - I've seen an M5 with 4 ms described as being too rich, but I reallly don't know and this will require more research.

Here is a link to the basics of tuning that provides some insight into the relationship between ignition angle, rpm, and load.

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=493245

If you do the google search here in Bimmer fest on 'lambda control fuel trim', the first item that shows up is a PDF that is the Baum Tools guide to fuel trim which explains how the whole closed loop cycle works. It has the formula for Load.

Happy hunting.
The forumula is outdated. Load is in INPA in mg / stroke suggeesting that it is a function of the air mass (MAF) and the engine speed (RPM) adjusted for units to get it to mg / stroke, and probably for the air pressure difference as well.

Looking back at the INPA charts - the car is neither running rich nor lean. Those "!" on load and ignitioin angle are only there because of the range underneath the bar chart. I suspect that there is an issue with some INPA .ipo and daten (??) files that is leading to an invalid range.

I'm ignoring those "!" for now and focusing on what the adaptation values are. If lean, then too much air is getting in = vacuum leak, likely. IF rich (negative adaptation) then not enough air is getting in (assuming there are no injector leaks). This can be due to a blockage from after the MAF to the intake manifold (ICV, throttle), or by something taking the place of the air - say gas fumes from the EVAP purge / release valve or (maybe?? I'm not sure here), something from the CCV - could oil be making it into the intake manifold in a small enough form that it goes through the spark process and makes it look rich at the O2 sensors?

Anyway, sorry for any confusion.
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