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E30 (1982 - 1993)
God's Chariot. The E30 was produced primarily from 1982 through 1991. The cabriolet was the one exception which was produced through 1993.

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  #1  
Old 02-11-2013, 02:07 PM
bMarcusW bMarcusW is offline
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'84 M10 Carb'd 316 -- Ignition timing issues?

Hi Guys,

I'm really stuck, so I thought maybe I'd post here and explain my car's symptoms, just in case someone has seen this sort of thing before.

1) On cold mornings (we're talking 3c or 37f), it will not start until I crank it over for 5 seconds at a time, giving the starter short breaks, for a good 5 minutes. It doesn't even begin to catch or sound like its starting until the very end, then on the next try it will start. Then, it revs to around 2000RPM, and slowly backs down if I bump the throttle (I've checked to make sure the throttle cable isn't too tight and affecting my idle, etc). Oh and giving it some gas when its all sad sounding and not starting doesn't do anything

2) When the engine finally decides to start, its a little shakey, then slowly smooths out after about 20 seconds. If I try and drive it right away, it's guaranteed that it will stall. The colder the engine is, the more sensitive it is to the gas pedal it seems. To get the RPMs to climb, I have to gently feather the gas (this takes sometimes a good 3 seconds to go from 1000 to 2000RPM) otherwise it stalls. When the temperature needle goes over 1/3rd, it is almost okay (meaning I can give it a good amount of gas, but not too much, and it will rev better / not stall from it), but there is still that gap from 1k to 2k where theres almost no power (in 1st gear)

3) Starting off on a slight hill, I have to use my ebrake to hold me as I gently feather the gas to rev up the engine to around 2500-3000RPM, and ride the clutch to keep it over 2k (or else I stall due to complete lack of power).

4) Up hills, RPMs will not climb, but the car is great at staying the same speed. On a steep 30 degree hill, have to climb in second gear doing about 4000RPM to do so (and it rocks and shakes back and forth, kind of scary as this is my new baby), but at least I can do it...so you better approach the hill fast (that's what I've learned )

It's also getting about 12L/100km or 19MPG, which is pretty bad for a 1.6L, so that makes me think im running quite rich :/

I'm thinking about taking the car in to an import specialist here in town, but he's tied up till a week from now, and I really would like to try and fix this myself before dishing out any money.

On a more upbeat topic, I love this car SO MUCH, and will be restoring it and attempting to get British Columbia collector plates for it. The precise steering, the clutch, the butter smooth tranny, the suspension, the quiet ride on the highway...I could go on forever! Just wish it ran better...

Does anyone have any ideas on where to start, or what to look for? Thanks
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  #2  
Old 02-11-2013, 08:02 PM
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BMWFatherFigure BMWFatherFigure is offline
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Running rich and poor cold start are opposites. Does the choke even work? Is it jammed off? It sound like you have several problems, What is your timing set at now? Do you have a workshop manual or even an owner manual? Even in the temps you describe 2 x throttle quickly to the floor and the hit the starter should give instant start. Check that choke for smooth function first.
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  #3  
Old 02-11-2013, 10:32 PM
bMarcusW bMarcusW is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWFatherFigure View Post
Running rich and poor cold start are opposites. Does the choke even work? Is it jammed off? It sound like you have several problems, What is your timing set at now? Do you have a workshop manual or even an owner manual? Even in the temps you describe 2 x throttle quickly to the floor and the hit the starter should give instant start. Check that choke for smooth function first.
Thanks for the response I will check the choke tomorrow, as well as read through the workshop PDF I found to figure out how to properly set the ignition timing, etc.

Also, I forgot to mention, it diesels when I shut it off, and it will run until I kill it with the clutch (this scares me, so I've never let it do that for more than around 5 seconds).
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Old 02-11-2013, 11:51 PM
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BMWFatherFigure BMWFatherFigure is offline
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Running on is DEATH TO MOTORS as the oil pump is not running at a speed fast enough to produce oil pressure. Stall it as you turn the ign off.
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  #5  
Old 02-12-2013, 01:19 AM
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Nick323 Nick323 is offline
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Check if your idle jet (the one in the ICOV ) is properly fastened in the carb, for a start
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  #6  
Old 02-12-2013, 10:56 AM
bMarcusW bMarcusW is offline
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Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWFatherFigure View Post
Running on is DEATH TO MOTORS as the oil pump is not running at a speed fast enough to produce oil pressure. Stall it as you turn the ign off.
Okay, I'm now dumping the clutch in 5th at the same time as turning the ignition off. Really hoping the PO didn't let it run like that...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick323 View Post
Check if your idle jet (the one in the ICOV ) is properly fastened in the carb, for a start
Thanks Nick, I will definitely add that to the list of things to check.

However, the idle is a smooth 800-900rpm after the initial start, would the jet not being properly fastened cause a rough initial start, then correct itself shortly after?

Ps. I've been following your "from the ashes" thread and I'm impressed!
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Old 02-14-2013, 05:41 PM
bMarcusW bMarcusW is offline
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Okay so the carb is going to need a rebuild and cleaning. Does anyone know where to get a rebuild kit for a Pierburg 2be? I found a "g052" part number online but can't seem to locate anything.
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Old 02-14-2013, 10:23 PM
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Nick323 Nick323 is offline
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Should be easy ?
Tomco used to sell rebult cars (stay away from unless yours is mechanically worn) & rebuild kits in the USA.
Or must I send you one from Namibia
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Old 02-15-2013, 12:09 PM
bMarcusW bMarcusW is offline
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I found a local place that sells used bimmer parts (bimmerparts.ca) with my carb and intake manifold! Yay!

Do you think I should make a picture step by step tutorial on here of what I do when I get the part? I think that would be a great resource for anyone with a carb'd m10
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Old 02-15-2013, 12:11 PM
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Absolutely. Very few of us have carbed BMWs, but it would be valuable for those that do, or those that search for info on the carb setup in the future.
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  #11  
Old 02-24-2013, 08:18 PM
bMarcusW bMarcusW is offline
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A little update!

I found out that the car had been sitting for quite a while, which makes me think the problem might be a clogged fuel line. The guy before me replaced the carb and said the problems continued even with the new carb, and I found that the fuel filter was completely clogged.

My question is, what's the best way to go about cleaning (or just checking) my lines?
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  #12  
Old 02-24-2013, 08:20 PM
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_Ethrty-Andy_ _Ethrty-Andy_ is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bMarcusW View Post
A little update!

I found out that the car had been sitting for quite a while, which makes me think the problem might be a clogged fuel line. The guy before me replaced the carb and said the problems continued even with the new carb, and I found that the fuel filter was completely clogged.

My question is, what's the best way to go about cleaning (or just checking) my lines?
they perish with age anyway, and you were all geared up for the expence of a carb rebuild.. why not just replace all the fuel lines and the filter? just blow compressed air down the metal ones that run the length of the car. you should be able to use non-EFI hose too which is cheaper
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Old 02-24-2013, 08:25 PM
bMarcusW bMarcusW is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _Ethrty-Andy_ View Post
they perish with age anyway, and you were all geared up for the expence of a carb rebuild.. why not just replace all the fuel lines and the filter? just blow compressed air down the metal ones that run the length of the car. you should be able to use non-EFI hose too which is cheaper
I guess I could replace the lines, never even thought of that haha

As far as the carb rebuild goes, I just haven't found the time ..yet.. with college and work where I could take the car apart and risk it not working at all (it's my daily driver). Eventually though
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Old 02-24-2013, 08:28 PM
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_Ethrty-Andy_ _Ethrty-Andy_ is offline
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yea i havent tackled a carb rebuild before, i have never owned a carb'd car (except my Merc 190E but thats sort of a EFI carb hybrid setup)
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  #15  
Old 02-24-2013, 08:42 PM
bMarcusW bMarcusW is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _Ethrty-Andy_ View Post
yea i havent tackled a carb rebuild before, i have never owned a carb'd car (except my Merc 190E but thats sort of a EFI carb hybrid setup)
EFI/Carb hybrid? Sounds similar to this thing...at least with the amount of electronics

What I've read about this Solex (or Pierburg) 2BE carb, is that it's nothing like any carb you'll ever see....and very complex due to the fact that BMW reinvented the wheel once again and used a bunch of extra electronic components to control fuel mixture, etc... woohoo! Kind of makes me scared to even start taking it apart

According to some of the people online, the 2BE is a very good and reliable carb when properly configured and not abused. Others will call it a piece of crap and advise to replace it with a Weber.

However, the issue I have with the Weber is:
1) Fuel economy drop
2) Manual choke
3) Linear throttle (the Solex is designed so that the pedal will "feel" better, and it seems to!)
4) Most importantly, it costs money, which is the main hold-back here.

I think I'll throw up a video on YouTube tomorrow morning, because I think I've found a possible problem. There was a very quiet electrical noise, almost like a motor working at something but not getting anywhere, coming from part of the carb when the key was on ignition (but the car wasn't started yet). Guessing this is the choke that doesn't work, but I draw a blank when I look at it, way too used to good old EFI.
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Old 02-24-2013, 09:45 PM
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Merc called it continuous fuel injection. used just one injector so had all the pressure of EFI, but then the mixture was controlled like a normal carberattuer. i dont know exactly how it works but its a strange system. they even used it on thier V8s etc too, but i presume that was a double injector or something
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Old 02-25-2013, 03:51 AM
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Nick323 Nick323 is offline
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Post 5 $ tune-up

Andy, do not recreate nightmares for me
Merc. did run some amazingly good & interesting EFi systems when they started off with Fool Injection. Take the Kugelfischer system and their 7-Bar K-jetronic.
They (like everybody else) also made some grand muck ups
Luckily this particular Beemer runs a mildly electronically controlled carb

Marcus please consider the carb rebuild carefully. I have rebuilt 1000's of carbs through the year successfully- it is part of my job.
a lot of these carbs just came form a rebuild
If you are ham-fisted, non-technically minded (if you can't figure systems out) and do not have a good memory (yeah, take lots of pictures whilst disassembly) do NOT attempt this.

Now for a tip. The 5 $ tune-up:
Remove your aircleaner (& centre stud if there is one) & put a bucket of water next to the car.
Spray enough carb cleaner into your carb to loosen the gunk inside.
Warm up your motor and spray the carb inside again with cleaner until it dies.
Wait 5 minutes before you restart your car and then immediately give the motor full throttle (if you must ask whether it should be in or out of gear- do NOT attempt this).
Once the motor is about to hit redline, smother the carb's opening with the flat of your hand
Keep the throttle floored and when the RPM dip to about 2000 remove your hand. You will be scared as to how your hand is sucked onto the carb ! Don't worry
After your motor coughs & stumbles, the RPM will aproach redline again.
repeat above about 3 or so times.
The water bucket is needed, should your car backfire whilst part of your body is near it
Also remember that your hand will be smothered in fuel

As far as Weber goes. Being their agent, as I used to work for Magnetti Marrelli, I must say they work IF you choose the right type.
You have 3 choices:
Get the OE Weber replacement unit, there should be one. As linkages, base & aircleaner fit & apart from idle, you need adjust nothing.
Get the 36 DCD, as it can be made to work anything from a Topolino to a 2.5 Chevy, but you will not have an automatic choke anymore
Use a 32 36 DGAV
On the above Weber options you will get better fuel consumption, driveability, throttle response and performance
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  #18  
Old 02-25-2013, 01:16 PM
bMarcusW bMarcusW is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick323 View Post
Andy, do not recreate nightmares for me
Merc. did run some amazingly good & interesting EFi systems when they started off with Fool Injection. Take the Kugelfischer system and their 7-Bar K-jetronic.
They (like everybody else) also made some grand muck ups
Luckily this particular Beemer runs a mildly electronically controlled carb

Marcus please consider the carb rebuild carefully. I have rebuilt 1000's of carbs through the year successfully- it is part of my job.
a lot of these carbs just came form a rebuild
If you are ham-fisted, non-technically minded (if you can't figure systems out) and do not have a good memory (yeah, take lots of pictures whilst disassembly) do NOT attempt this.

Now for a tip. The 5 $ tune-up:
Remove your aircleaner (& centre stud if there is one) & put a bucket of water next to the car.
Spray enough carb cleaner into your carb to loosen the gunk inside.
Warm up your motor and spray the carb inside again with cleaner until it dies.
Wait 5 minutes before you restart your car and then immediately give the motor full throttle (if you must ask whether it should be in or out of gear- do NOT attempt this).
Once the motor is about to hit redline, smother the carb's opening with the flat of your hand
Keep the throttle floored and when the RPM dip to about 2000 remove your hand. You will be scared as to how your hand is sucked onto the carb ! Don't worry
After your motor coughs & stumbles, the RPM will aproach redline again.
repeat above about 3 or so times.
The water bucket is needed, should your car backfire whilst part of your body is near it
Also remember that your hand will be smothered in fuel

As far as Weber goes. Being their agent, as I used to work for Magnetti Marrelli, I must say they work IF you choose the right type.
You have 3 choices:
Get the OE Weber replacement unit, there should be one. As linkages, base & aircleaner fit & apart from idle, you need adjust nothing.
Get the 36 DCD, as it can be made to work anything from a Topolino to a 2.5 Chevy, but you will not have an automatic choke anymore
Use a 32 36 DGAV
On the above Weber options you will get better fuel consumption, driveability, throttle response and performance
Thanks for the useful information. It's really nice to hear after all the confusion.

I will try your method of cleaning the carb later today, and maybe throw a video up on youtube if some friends come to help

I would consider myself quite technically minded, as I am a computer science student

I have a decent photographic memory and a camera for video while dissecting the carb...so I think I might do that after I replace the fuel lines.

I'll go for the weber in the summer I think, as I'll be working full time again and will be able to afford it.

I uploaded a video to youtube showing the issue with giving it gas and having it stall. It also makes a buzzing noise when I have the key in ignition, which makes me think a motor is working hard and getting nowhere (maybe the fuel pump?)

Anyway, here it is just in case it helps determine what could be wrong (it's still processing, and will be ready in approx. 10 minutes):
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