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F30 / F31 / F32 / F33 (2012 - current)
The sixth generation 3 series, chassis code F30. 2013 model year 328i and 335i sedans now in production. Read the F30 frequently asked question thread for all your basic question and dive into all the details in the ultimate F30 information thread.

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  #76  
Old 02-25-2013, 05:58 PM
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kpgray kpgray is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by White05X3 View Post
I have been pondering this issue as my son gets near 14...Our discussion has involved him researching the car he wants, putting together a rationale, and then restoring it together. One of my reasons for wanting something we can restore together is so that he has some blood, sweat, and tears in the car. That way when I hand him the keys he is less likely to do something colossally stupid (didn't say he won't...just less likely). We have been looking at late production e30's and e36's as a good place to start. But in your scenario I think any e46 with lower mileage would be a good choice. The ZHP is fun to drive for sure, but perhaps just a regular e46 coupe with sport package would work too. Cost would be lower, fun would still be there, and you wouldn't be as upset if something happened to it. Plus ZHP's have some expensive interior bits that are wear items, like the alcantara steering wheel. I'm just not sure there is value added in your use case by going with the ZHP.
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Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
I personally would not want my kids driving a convertible when they first started driving. I would worry about roll-overs and driving crazier because the top is down and the wind is blowing in a 16 year old's hair. That's too much of a testosterone stimulant, IMO.
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Originally Posted by cblandin View Post
In my case, my son got my hand-me down E36 - 328i 5 speed, sport package Hellrot sedan...and promptly totaled it 6 months later.
Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
My son's HS friend got a Mazda 3 and totalled it 2 weeks afterwards.
BJ said that he was looking for a car that he could drive to keep his mileage down on his F30 and yet enjoy a couple of years himself before he fully hands the keys over to his Son reaching his 15th birthday. BJ was thinking a drop top would be fun during the summer for him to drive and allow his son to learn under the restricted NJ driving laws. The 330 Ci Convertible ZHP would be a blast to drive but is this the car to hand over to a new driver? I guess I could summarize the following from various comments above:
  • BMW is above average safety and would be a good car to learn in
  • A Coupe or Sedan would be safer than a convertible
  • A smaller or less powerful engine would be safer (less HP)
  • Sport Package would not make a differance for a new driver
  • A vehicle in need of some minor cosmetic repair to add some sweat equity into the equitation
  • The Son needs to put in some real thought into the process on what he desires as options available and which ones he wants, etc.

I would only add that I would consider a stick shift as you have to concentrate more when driving, therefore I would believe it is safer (besides, I would bet few of his friends would be able to drive limiting exposure to someone else driving)
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  #77  
Old 02-25-2013, 06:36 PM
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FR-S or BR-Z. Or a M3 ZHP 'vert on Craigslist.
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  #78  
Old 02-25-2013, 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
FR-S or BR-Z. Or a M3 ZHP 'vert on Craigslist.
I really like that BRZ. I also agree that starting a son out with a manual transmission forces him to concentrate more on driving. It was that way with my son, who was not totally comfortable with his manual shifting skills, and where it became second nature even 2 years into driving. Concentrating on shifting made him more cautious, fortunately.
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  #79  
Old 02-25-2013, 07:37 PM
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I was torn between my M3 and the BR-Z. I wanted the BR-Z simply because it was light and a proper sports car, but I've wanted the M3 for a very long time and I needed to make my dream come true and get it out of my system. Can't say I've regretted it. The BR-Z is an amazing car.
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  #80  
Old 02-25-2013, 07:51 PM
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I was torn between my M3 and the BR-Z. I wanted the BR-Z simply because it was light and a proper sports car, but I've wanted the M3 for a very long time and I needed to make my dream come true and get it out of my system. Can't say I've regretted it. The BR-Z is an amazing car.
I was talking to my son tonight who had taken his daily driver M3 into an open and empty parking lot after a fresh snow a couple of weeks ago. He has 4 snow tires, but he was still a bit uneasy about how the car would handle in bad driving conditions. He was doing some donuts and hard cornering to try to break it loose, which he did, but he never felt out of control. The traction control system always kept him in control. He absolutely loves his car, and I'm pleased that he continues to discover just how great the M3 is, the more he drives it.

You made a great decision to get the M3.
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  #81  
Old 02-26-2013, 01:37 AM
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boltjaM3s boltjaM3s is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverX3 View Post
OP : so have you reached a verdict yet
No. Great opinions in this thread, lots to think about now. It'll be a BMW, just need to think hard on the convertible decision which I want for myself but might not be safe for my son.

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Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
Does it have to be base salary or can it include bonuses?
Base. Sorry.

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Originally Posted by Zeichen311 View Post
In the interest of the safety of BJ's son, I want to address a misconception here.

We're all a bit jaded when it comes whether we deem a car to be "fast" and "powerful." Older cars like an E46 are dismissed as slow "beaters" in comparison to current models. That's a mistake. Shopping cars for a new driver, it can be helpful to take a step back and remember how the car ranked against peers in its era.

An E46 330i/xi is an agile, powerful car--full stop. The ZHP, even more so. 225+ HP is nothing to sneeze at. Just because a modern grocery-getter may out-muscle either one does not make them milquetoast toys that are harmless to an inexperienced kid. If anything, quite the opposite: The highly-capable BMW chassis tends to inspire confidence not matched by the driver's skill. They don't know they're headed for trouble until too late and lack the car-control skills to avoid disaster.

BJ, before you hand down something like a ZHP to your son, please enroll him in a car-control clinic for new drivers, like the Tire Rack Street Survival program. You don't even have to go far: We (the NJ Chapter of the BMW CCA) host a Street Survival every spring right in your neck of the woods, at Campgaw Mountain Reservation.

As the line from Top Gun goes, it may be difficult to keep a teenage boy's ego from writing checks his body can't cash. So put a little extra allowance in his bank account of skills, as insurance against any lapses in judgement.
Great idea. Please PM or post up the NJ Street Survival detail. I'm in. Can he participate at 16 on a learners permit? Or just ride shotgun to take notes?

BJ
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  #82  
Old 02-26-2013, 01:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kpgray View Post
BJ said that he was looking for a car that he could drive to keep his mileage down on his F30 and yet enjoy a couple of years himself before he fully hands the keys over to his Son reaching his 15th birthday. BJ was thinking a drop top would be fun during the summer for him to drive and allow his son to learn under the restricted NJ driving laws. The 330 Ci Convertible ZHP would be a blast to drive but is this the car to hand over to a new driver? I guess I could summarize the following from various comments above:
  • BMW is above average safety and would be a good car to learn in
  • A Coupe or Sedan would be safer than a convertible
  • A smaller or less powerful engine would be safer (less HP)
  • Sport Package would not make a differance for a new driver
  • A vehicle in need of some minor cosmetic repair to add some sweat equity into the equitation
  • The Son needs to put in some real thought into the process on what he desires as options available and which ones he wants, etc.

I would only add that I would consider a stick shift as you have to concentrate more when driving, therefore I would believe it is safer (besides, I would bet few of his friends would be able to drive limiting exposure to someone else driving)
I have always found that a faster car has been safer for me, since I was a kid, in fact.

I guess it's because when I've gotten into trouble in my past it's because when I've made a bad decision it's always been about a lane change or a merge or an on-ramp where I thought I had enough room and the right timing but would up a bit short and a stomp on the accelerator solved all ills. My dad had me in some nice cars from 16-19, an '80 RX7 and an '81 733i both accelerated and handled magnificently. For a spell he got all gas conscious and got a Ford Escort and that 4 cylinder mouse nearly ruined me.

Especially here in NY Metro, power is needed for good defensive driving. Sounds silly, but everyone drives aggressively here and an underpowered putt-putt could easily get rear ended on Route 17 or Route 4, not to mention the taxi slollom when he graduates to Manhattan. I don't drive like a maniac, but my best defense has always been a good offense. Like Wayne Gretzky, you anticipate where the play is going to go, power away to that spot to avoid the congestion.

BJ
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Last edited by boltjaM3s; 02-26-2013 at 01:53 AM.
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  #83  
Old 02-26-2013, 06:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
I have always found that a faster car has been safer for me, since I was a kid, in fact.

I guess it's because when I've gotten into trouble in my past it's because when I've made a bad decision it's always been about a lane change or a merge or an on-ramp where I thought I had enough room and the right timing but would up a bit short and a stomp on the accelerator solved all ills. My dad had me in some nice cars from 16-19, an '80 RX7 and an '81 733i both accelerated and handled magnificently. For a spell he got all gas conscious and got a Ford Escort and that 4 cylinder mouse nearly ruined me.

Especially here in NY Metro, power is needed for good defensive driving. Sounds silly, but everyone drives aggressively here and an underpowered putt-putt could easily get rear ended on Route 17 or Route 4, not to mention the taxi slollom when he graduates to Manhattan. I don't drive like a maniac, but my best defense has always been a good offense. Like Wayne Gretzky, you anticipate where the play is going to go, power away to that spot to avoid the congestion.

BJ
Neither the 1981 BMW 733i nor the 1980 Mazda RX7 would be considered particularly fast accelerating cars if they were sold today as can be seen in the following 0-60 and Quarter Mile acceleration times below. I drove both a 1978 and 1981 Honda Accords in NYC rush hour traffic to commute from Queens to Manhattan every day for several years and never had an issue keeping up with traffic or merging from on ramps. I couldn't find acceleration figures for a 1978 Accord but it was noticeably slower than the 1978. I suppose at this point after being used to driving a BMW 335i, 750i a Jaguar XKR and various other powerful cars I would probably find the Accords to be painfully slow. FWIW the last time I got a speeding ticket I was in the 1981 Accord.

Cars of 20+ years ago.
1980 BMW 733i 0-60 mph 8.3 Quarter mile 16.4
1979 Mazda RX-7 GS 0-60 mph 9.1 Quarter mile 16.8

1981 Honda Accord 0-60 mph 13.1 Quarter mile 18.2

Contemporary cars.
2012 Honda Civic Si Sedan 0-60 mph 6.0 Quarter Mile 14.5
2012 Toyota Camry LE (2.5L) 0-60 mph 8.7 Quarter Mile 16.0
2012 Toyota Camry SE (V6) 0-60 mph 5.7 Quarter Mile 14.1
2011 Honda Accord SE 0-60 mph 9.0 Quarter Mile 16.8
2011 Honda Accord EX 0-60 mph 6.1 Quarter Mile 14.6

For the sake of comparison here are some cars from the Muscle/Pony Car era that were considered very fast at the time.
Who would have thought that a 2011 Accord EX was faster than the legendary '64 Pontiac GTO?

1964 Pontiac GTO 0-60 mph 6.8 Quarter mile 14.7
1971 Ford Mustang Boss 351 0-60 mph 5.7 Quarter mile 13.6
1967 Chevrolet Camaro SS 0-60 mph 7.9 Quarter mile 15.2
1972 Chevrolet Camaro Z28 0-60 mph 7.4 Quarter mile 15.3
1968 Chevrolet Corvette 427 0-60 mph 6.2 Quarter mile 13.9

CA
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Last edited by captainaudio; 02-26-2013 at 07:08 AM.
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  #84  
Old 02-26-2013, 06:52 AM
Jamesonsviggen Jamesonsviggen is offline
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Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
No. Great opinions in this thread, lots to think about now. It'll be a BMW, just need to think hard on the convertible decision which I want for myself but might not be safe for my son.



Base. Sorry.



Great idea. Please PM or post up the NJ Street Survival detail. I'm in. Can he participate at 16 on a learners permit? Or just ride shotgun to take notes?

BJ
The one I went to a mother brought her daughter who rode alone while on a permit. I think it was because it was on private property it was deemed ok.
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  #85  
Old 02-26-2013, 08:11 AM
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The one I went to a mother brought her daughter who rode alone while on a permit. I think it was because it was on private property it was deemed ok.
If an event is on private property a drivers license is not required. It is up to the organization sponsoring the event.
Trans Am driver John Edwards was racing (and winning) in the Skip Barber series when he was 14 and was too young to get a drivers license.

CA
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  #86  
Old 02-26-2013, 08:24 AM
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Technic Technic is offline
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Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
LOL.

Is there a way to get an M3 de-tuned?

Let's say that since the car is mostly for me (Year 1 he's 15 and in parking lots, Year 2 he's on a learner's permit with me riding shotgun) is it not possible that by Year 3 I could bring the M3 Cabrio to a shop and have them do something to cut the power in half? If I eventually sell it I can remove the mod, no harm no foul.

BJ
I have seen some crap done on the street by the youth on 115hp Civics, so 333hp will not make a difference. The driver is the difference.

I would say, before he drives anything at all enroll him into some nice, intensive driving school.
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  #87  
Old 02-26-2013, 08:27 AM
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Technic Technic is offline
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Thanks, I'm going to take the M3 Cabrio off the list.

Looks like a ZHP then.



Perfect. So I'll look for an '04-'06 ZHP Coupe or Cabrio, won't have any of the transmission issues. Any advice on options? Bluetooth even available back then? Does the ZHP have all the handling goodies that I'd want, or was there some additional ride/handling package that I should look out for? If this is my chance to get back to the 3 Series 'roots', don't want to blow it.

BJ
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  #88  
Old 02-26-2013, 08:29 AM
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We call it death by BMW here ...... seems like every year a 16 year old kills them self or another with the new BMW their parents gave them.

Boys need big, heavy, slow, cheap, since their brains are not fully developed at age 16. Land Rover Discovery worked well for our son who totaled his Jeep and the first Disco before he started paying attention with a second Discovery.

2002 330i worked for our daughter (more mature at the same age) and she is still driving this car 7 years later!
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  #89  
Old 02-26-2013, 08:34 AM
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BJ,

When you come to Climb to the Clouds 5 you and your son will meet our guest of honor Bob Green. Bob is a Senior Skip Barber Instructor and runs Survive the Drive (our charity for this years event). He will be a good source of info on how to teach your son to be a safe driver.

http://www.survivethedrive.org


CA
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  #90  
Old 02-26-2013, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by laser View Post
We call it death by BMW here ...... seems like every year a 16 year old kills them self or another with the new BMW their parents gave them.

Boys need big, heavy, slow, cheap, since their brains are not fully developed at age 16. Land Rover Discovery worked well for our son who totaled his Jeep and the first Disco before he started paying attention with a second Discovery.

2002 330i worked for our daughter (more mature at the same age) and she is still driving this car 7 years later!
We will agree to deeply disagree on that one... when you start working at 12 years old to get what you want -especially your own car- then by 16 you will be quite a veteran on a lot of things, including driving. Just because you are going to be the one paying for your own mistakes out of your own pocket.

It is all relative.
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  #91  
Old 02-26-2013, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Technic View Post
I have seen some crap done on the street by the youth on 115hp Civics, so 333hp will not make a difference. The driver is the difference.

I would say, before he drives anything at all enroll him into some nice, intensive driving school.
I like the idea of a comprehensive driver school for new drivers. There were not any "comprehensive" ones that I could find 10 years ago when my kids were 15. They took the local drivers education school and I spent countless hours with them driving with me in the passenger seat. I taught my son to drive a stick in my Corvette. That actually taught him to respect the power he felt and possibly made him a more defensive and cautious driver.

Being a parent is hard enough, but it's really tough when you see one of your kids driving away on their own for the first time. My heart still jumps everytime the phone rings late at night for the fear that something went wrong.

Articles with subject titles like this don't help either.

http://autos.aol.com/article/deadlie...6pLid%3D275395
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  #92  
Old 02-26-2013, 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
I like the idea of a comprehensive driver school for new drivers. There were not any "comprehensive" ones that I could find 10 years ago when my kids were 15. They took the local drivers education school and I spent countless hours with them driving with me in the passenger seat. I taught my son to drive a stick in my Corvette. That actually taught him to respect the power he felt and possibly made him a more defensive and cautious driver.

Being a parent is hard enough, but it's really tough when you see one of your kids driving away on their own for the first time. My heart still jumps everytime the phone rings late at night for the fear that something went wrong.

Articles with subject titles like this don't help either.

http://autos.aol.com/article/deadlie...6pLid%3D275395
In my opinion the Skip Barber School does an excellent job of teaching car control and defensive driving skills. I have been there many times when parents took the course with their children.

CA
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  #93  
Old 02-26-2013, 08:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Technic View Post
We will agree to deeply disagree on that one... when you start working at 12 years old to get what you want -especially your own car- then by 16 you will be quite a veteran on a lot of things, including driving. Just because you are going to be the one paying for your own mistakes out of your own pocket.

It is all relative.
No disagreement there! ......... that was me working from age 12 on various jobs ...... chicken farm, ice cream truck route, school bus driver at age 16 (South Carolina) ....... that's a rare start for our more affluent times and kids today.

A new fast BMW "given" to an affluent high school kid, boy especially, has done much harm in our nearby high schools.
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  #94  
Old 02-26-2013, 08:45 AM
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I would have paid from my own pocket for a proper driving school back in my teens in lieu of the Mickey Mouse driving class before the driver's license test.

To me, that is the single, most obvious reason of the mess in road manners. Most people do not drive, they really walk in their cars. The same way they bump into other people at the mall without paying attention, but at thousand of dollars and physical pain/death in damages.

Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
I like the idea of a comprehensive driver school for new drivers. There were not any "comprehensive" ones that I could find 10 years ago when my kids were 15. They took the local drivers education school and I spent countless hours with them driving with me in the passenger seat. I taught my son to drive a stick in my Corvette. That actually taught him to respect the power he felt and possibly made him a more defensive and cautious driver.

Being a parent is hard enough, but it's really tough when you see one of your kids driving away on their own for the first time. My heart still jumps everytime the phone rings late at night for the fear that something went wrong.

Articles with subject titles like this don't help either.

http://autos.aol.com/article/deadlie...6pLid%3D275395
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  #95  
Old 02-26-2013, 09:16 AM
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Zeichen311 Zeichen311 is offline
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Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Great idea. Please PM or post up the NJ Street Survival detail. I'm in. Can he participate at 16 on a learners permit? Or just ride shotgun to take notes?
Yes, he can drive--the program is open to licensed or permitted drivers, ages 15 through 21. Other frequently-asked questions are answered on the Street Survival website.

We have not yet scheduled the 2013 events but are planning one in the spring and another in the fall, as we did in 2012. Last year the event dates were 6/10 and 9/30; we are shooting for similar dates this year. I will PM you the info when we have it.

We recommend students who do not have their own car bring the one they will be driving most often. (There are some restrictions on SUVs and high-CG vehicles.) So I guess that means the F30 stays home...bring whatever you plan to let him drive until you acquire the beater.
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  #96  
Old 02-26-2013, 09:19 AM
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Chris90 Chris90 is offline
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Does it have to be base salary or can it include bonuses?
Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Base. Sorry.

BJ
Damnit.

Can you include your wife's income??
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Old 02-26-2013, 09:25 AM
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Chris90 Chris90 is offline
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Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
I have always found that a faster car has been safer for me, since I was a kid, in fact.

I guess it's because when I've gotten into trouble in my past it's because when I've made a bad decision it's always been about a lane change or a merge or an on-ramp where I thought I had enough room and the right timing but would up a bit short and a stomp on the accelerator solved all ills. My dad had me in some nice cars from 16-19, an '80 RX7 and an '81 733i both accelerated and handled magnificently. For a spell he got all gas conscious and got a Ford Escort and that 4 cylinder mouse nearly ruined me.
Can't speak for your son, but kids seem much less into cars (and driving fast) these days than our generation was. I think an older BMW is a great idea, they have so much more feedback than a typical car, which should help a young driver really learn to drive.

Just don't tell him about the 3 second press of the DSC button that disables stability control.

I will definitely take my son to BMW CCA teenager driving classes when he is of age.
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Last edited by Chris90; 02-26-2013 at 09:28 AM.
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Old 02-26-2013, 09:30 AM
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beden1 beden1 is offline
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My kids may have felt at times that I was too involved, but I was always discussing driving situations with them at the dinner table after they had been driving around during the day. Their friends would also have frank discussions with me about cars and driving because they knew I was into cars. They also knew me from my years of coaching a number of sports and that I had a genuine interest in how they were doing.

Like when I knew they were going to a party at a friend's house, I would always drive my kids and as many of their friends as could fit into our Suburban to the party and pick them up afterwards. That's why I've kept our '02 Suburban, because I still pick many of them up at the bar when they are home for the holidays. To this day, none of their parents have ever offered them the same service, and for the life of me, I can't understand how any parent can seemingly be so checked out from their kids lives.

Helping your child get a driver's license is just the beginning of yet another chapter of a parent's responsibility. Staying involved with them on a regular basis is a never ending job.
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Old 02-26-2013, 09:44 AM
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Zeichen311 Zeichen311 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
I like the idea of a comprehensive driver school for new drivers. There were not any "comprehensive" ones that I could find 10 years ago when my kids were 15. They took the local drivers education school and I spent countless hours with them driving with me in the passenger seat. I taught my son to drive a stick in my Corvette. That actually taught him to respect the power he felt and possibly made him a more defensive and cautious driver.
If we could adopt only one aspect of the German driving experience in this country, I wish it could be the requirement for professional, in-depth instruction and stringent testing to obtain a driver's license. Think of all the jobs it would create, too. (Long before this happens, I expect to see unicorns and bunnies capering through my yard, leaving small piles of gold coins in their wake.)

You make an interesting point about a high-powered car used as an educational tool. It reminded me of this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeichen311 View Post
Ages ago, when my kid sister was learning to drive [a manual] and I had my Mustang GT, she begged me to let her drive it up & down the (long) driveway, confident she'd have no trouble because she "could already do it" with a Toyota Tercel wagon (). I couldn't convince her it wasn't the same so I relented and let her try: 225 hp, 300 lb-ft, brutish cable-linked clutch and all. First attempt, stalled. Second attempt, stalled and bucked so hard it actually scared her. Short review of fundamentals ensues, reassure her I'm amused not angry, third attempt...got it moving, but spat gravel a good thirty yards. At the end of the driveway she told me to drive it back and admitted she still had a lot to learn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Technic View Post
To me, that is the single, most obvious reason of the mess in road manners. Most people do not drive, they really walk in their cars. The same way they bump into other people at the mall without paying attention, but at thousand of dollars and physical pain/death in damages.
Excellent point.

We periodically kick around the idea of offering car-control clinics for adults to complement TSS but struggle with the marketing needed to fill them. Most people either have no interest in becoming better drivers or think there is nothing they need to learn.
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  #100  
Old 02-26-2013, 10:09 AM
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kpgray kpgray is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
I have always found that a faster car has been safer for me, since I was a kid, in fact.

I guess it's because when I've gotten into trouble in my past it's because when I've made a bad decision it's always been about a lane change or a merge or an on-ramp where I thought I had enough room and the right timing but would up a bit short and a stomp on the accelerator solved all ills. My dad had me in some nice cars from 16-19, an '80 RX7 and an '81 733i both accelerated and handled magnificently. For a spell he got all gas conscious and got a Ford Escort and that 4 cylinder mouse nearly ruined me.

Especially here in NY Metro, power is needed for good defensive driving. Sounds silly, but everyone drives aggressively here and an underpowered putt-putt could easily get rear ended on Route 17 or Route 4, not to mention the taxi slollom when he graduates to Manhattan. I don't drive like a maniac, but my best defense has always been a good offense. Like Wayne Gretzky, you anticipate where the play is going to go, power away to that spot to avoid the congestion.

BJ
That part I certainly agree with is that an underpowered car can be dangerous such as your old Ford Escort (78 HP and 0-60 in 10.4 seconds) and your new 328i is ample power (F30 version). Therefore let me clarify the less HP comment I made, a M3 may be too much power (do you want your kid to have a faster car than you? ):

2004 E46 3-Series 0-60 times (from Consumers Guide):
  • 325i Auto - 8.1 seconds
  • 330i Auto - 7.0 seconds
  • 330 Manual - 6.4 seconds
  • M3 Manual - 5.4 seconds
  • 2012 328i Auto - 5.9 seconds
  • 2012 328i Manual - 5.7 seconds

What I find amazing is that the F30 328i Manual is nearly as quick as a 2004 M3!

http://consumerguideauto.howstuffwor...3-series-1.htm
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Last edited by kpgray; 02-26-2013 at 10:15 AM.
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