Advice Needed: Older 3 Series For Fun (and eventually) Son Getting Learner's Permit

Originally Posted by kpgray

That part I certainly agree with is that an underpowered car can be dangerous such as your old Ford Escort (78 HP and 0-60 in 10.4 seconds) and the 328i is ample power (F30 version). Therefore let me clarify the less HP comment I made, a M3 may be too much power (do you want your kid to have a faster car than you? ):

2004 E46 3-Series 0-60 times (from Consumers Guide):

• 325i Auto - 8.1 seconds
• 330i Auto - 7.0 seconds
• 330 Manual - 6.4 seconds
• M3 Manual - 5.4 seconds
• 2012 328i Auto - 5.9 seconds

http://consumerguideauto.howstuffwor...3-series-1.htm

Instead of discussing more power versus less, young drivers should learn how to anticipate their upcoming driving situations. Eyes on the road ahead and driving defensively. Learning to power out of near mistakes is the wrong mindset, IMO.

The less "he who hesitates is lost" situations a young driver gets into, the better as far as I'm concerned.

Originally Posted by beden1

Instead of discussing more power versus less, young drivers should learn how to anticipate their upcoming driving situations. Eyes on the road ahead and driving defensively. Learning to power out of near mistakes is the wrong mindset, IMO.

The less "he who hesitates is lost" situations a young driver gets into, the better as far as I'm concerned.

I can agree with the above but the situation is learned, therefore the question is which car is balanced between dangerously slow and frightenly quick to get you out of the situation. I guess the 330ci with a manual is a 0-60 seconds in 6.4 seconds, pretty quick but not scary fast IMHO.

Originally Posted by beden1

Instead of discussing more power versus less, young drivers should learn how to anticipate their upcoming driving situations. Eyes on the road ahead and driving defensively. Learning to power out of near mistakes is the wrong mindset, IMO.

The less "he who hesitates is lost" situations a young driver gets into, the better as far as I'm concerned.

Powering out of near mistakes can be good way to transform a near mistake into a real mistake. Most drivers have no idea what to do when something goes wrong.

CA

Originally Posted by captainaudio

Powering out of near mistakes can be good way to transform a near mistake into a real mistake. Most drivers have no idea what to do when something goes wrong.

CA

Exactly, and compounded by the higher rate of speed and force.

It would appear that many drivers have no idea what to do when something is about to go wrong, regardless of age, judging from what I see on the road.

There was a suggestion here to send kids to the Tire Rack Street Survival School. Having coached a number of them now, I can tell you that it is pure lunacy to send any child out into the driving world without TRSS. It is an incredible program that teaches all of the hands-on skills teens need. As a parent of a soon-to-be teen driver, I can tell you with absolute certainty that my kids will complete at least two TRSS before being allowed to go out alone on the street.

Please look at http://www.streetsurvival.org

Originally Posted by beden1

Exactly, and compounded by the higher rate of speed and force.

It would appear that many drivers have no idea what to do when something is about to go wrong, regardless of age, judging from what I see on the road.

That is why car control clinics are so valuable. If you have never felt a car lose grip you will not know what it feels like when it is about to lose grip. In far too many cases a driver's only experience with a skid was the one just before the crash.

The limits in modern cars are so high that drivers can easily become overconfident and keep pushing closer and closer to the limits until they eventually exceed them and the car breaks traction. At that point they frequently have no idea what to do and will often either snap off the accelerator or jam on the brakes and go into a spin. Another frequent error is to try to correct understeer by applying more steering.

When people ask what I have gained from high performance driver training and track experience I tell them I have learned two important things.

1. I am a much better driver than I was,
2. I am no where near as good a driver as I thought I was.

CA

Originally Posted by kpgray

I guess the 330ci with a manual is a 0-60 seconds in 6.4 seconds, pretty quick but not scary fast IMHO.

My ZHP is supposedly 0-60 in 5.5 sec.

Originally Posted by captainaudio

1. I am a much better driver than I was,
2. I am no where near as good a driver as I thought I was.

CA

I could not have said it better. Although I did not send any of my kids to a drivers school (excluding drivers training ), the first few inches of snow after they had their permit, I have taken each of them to a local empty parking lot (free from any vehicles or other obstructions) and set up a small course to let them experience some of the auto's limits and how to recognize or handle a spin or a slide. Although this is not a wet or dry pavement slip, it certainly gives some respect to the cars capability.

My oldest daughter started with a 2002 325 back in 2006. She enjoyed the heck out the car and now has a 2009 328 which feels much bigger. My other daughter started with Mitsubishi Eclipse convertible and 2 years ago move to a 2007 335 with the N54 engine. So you can start kids out with a BMW, but you might want to start out with the lower powered model.

FWIW, my first car was a 1970 Boss 302 Mustang. Back in 1972 you could get one for $2,000. I enjoyed the heck out that car, but by the time I was 16 I had 3+ years of driving experience.

Originally Posted by Chris90

Damnit.

Can you include your wife's income??

Yes, most definitely, so long as there is a child or prenup at the time of purchase.

BJ

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

Yeah, that's the rub.

He'll be 15 in July '13 and learners-permit age in July '14, a highly restricted daytime licence in July '15 and on his own as an 18 year old in July '16.

So, for him, it'll be occasional weekend use, supervised, in a parking lot for Year 1 and on the roads for Year 2. Won't be able to take the car out on his own until Year 3, won't truly have complete freedom until Year 4.

For me, it'll be every-other-day midweek use for fun and to keep the mileage off the leased F30. As such, this car is 90% for my use, only 10% for his use, likely not going to be much of a car left by the time 2015 rolls around and he could do some serious damage anyway.

BJ

I met your son. I swore he was like 10 years old and it was only two years ago. That's awesome he will be driving soon.

He gonna drive the old man to C2C-VI?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kpgray
That part I certainly agree with is that an underpowered car can be dangerous such as your old Ford Escort (78 HP and 0-60 in 10.4 seconds) and the 328i is ample power (F30 version). Therefore let me clarify the less HP comment I made, a M3 may be too much power (do you want your kid to have a faster car than you? ):

2004 E46 3-Series 0-60 times (from Consumers Guide):
325i Auto - 8.1 seconds
330i Auto - 7.0 seconds
330 Manual - 6.4 seconds
M3 Manual - 5.4 seconds
2012 328i Auto - 5.9 seconds
http://consumerguideauto.howstuffwor...3-series-1.htm


TRUE but all modern BMW are turbo cars.... Turbo can be pain in the butt later on

Originally Posted by beden1

[Y]oung drivers should learn how to anticipate their upcoming driving situations. ... Learning to power out of near mistakes is the wrong mindset, IMO.

The less "he who hesitates is lost" situations a young driver gets into, the better ....

Originally Posted by captainaudio

Powering out of near mistakes can be good way to transform a near mistake into a real mistake. Most drivers have no idea what to do when something goes wrong.

Ditto to all of that. So many good driving habits flow from thinking ahead, yet so many people were apparently never taught to do so. One of the easiest examples to recognize, and to explain to a young driver, has to be a highway entrance ramp and acceleration lane. I can't count how many times a week I see cars enter an Interstate with a 20mph speed differential that could have been erased with just a few seconds' forethought and a smidgen of confidence.

As CA said, the vast majority of modern cars have scary-high limits compared to what the average driver can control. The flip side of being shown/taught where those limits really are is the realization of how much safe maneuvering capability goes unused, in everyday situations where it might have been useful.

Originally Posted by kpgray

[T]he question is which car is balanced between dangerously slow and frightenly quick to get you out of the situation. I guess the 330ci with a manual is ... pretty quick but not scary fast IMHO.

Not meaning to pick on you or dispute your point, but here's something to consider: I could put you in the hands of any of over a dozen CCA instructors or highly-skilled drivers (some of whom are members here) who, in one lap of a road course, could demonstrate that a ten-year-old 330Ci is in fact not merely scary fast, but downright terrifying. Many a self-proclaimed enthusiast has had their definitions of "fast car" and "driver skill" permanently elevated after one such quick session--even at an autocross, let alone a racetrack. Just a light snack for thought.

Originally Posted by Zeichen311

Not meaning to pick on you or dispute your point, but here's something to consider: I could put you in the hands of any of over a dozen CCA instructors or highly-skilled drivers (some of whom are members here) who, in one lap of a road course, could demonstrate that a ten-year-old 330Ci is in fact not merely scary fast, but downright terrifying. Many a self-proclaimed enthusiast has had their definitions of "fast car" and "driver skill" permanently elevated after one such quick session--even at an autocross, let alone a racetrack. Just a light snack for thought.

From, experience yes.

I wanted to do a driving school/car control clinic the month before I added a couple of hundred hp to my E36/7. It had felt slow, hence wanting to add the power. I figured I would know more what it was capable of NA, then come back and get a handle of the new found power.

I quickly learned, that even at 220whp, it was enough to scare the crap out of me and was far more capable of a car than I was a driver. It's quite humbling, but in a good way.

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

From, experience yes.

I wanted to do a driving school/car control clinic the month before I added a couple of hundred hp to my E36/7. It had felt slow, hence wanting to add the power. I figured I would know more what it was capable of NA, then come back and get a handle of the new found power.

I quickly learned, that even at 220whp, it was enough to scare the crap out of me and was far more capable of a car than I was a driver. It's quite humbling, but in a good way.

That's why I like to drive cars that can handle much better than I can handle driving.

Originally Posted by beden1

That's why I like to drive cars that can handle much better than I can handle driving.

Well, the more experience you have driving a car on a track/near it's limit, the more I find your own limits increase.

So at the start, a novice may find a 116hp Miata more than a handful. But time invested, he may want to move to a Boxster, 911, Vette etc.

I know just from my day in the Roadster, my confidence increased from the beginning of the day to the end of the day. It's always good admitting you know what you know, knowing it's not enough and you can always get better.

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

Well, the more experience you have driving a car on a track/near it's limit, the more I find your own limits increase.

So at the start, a novice may find a 116hp Miata more than a handful. But time invested, he may want to move to a Boxster, 911, Vette etc.

I know just from my day in the Roadster, my confidence increased from the beginning of the day to the end of the day. It's always good admitting you know what you know, knowing it's not enough and you can always get better.

I've been a into boating and offshore sport fishing for most of my life, and in all kinds of sea conditions except for hurricane force winds, thank God. I've navigated from over 100 miles offshore during an overnight tuna trip at the canyons off of Maryland; and back to port in Southern NJ in 7+ foot beam seas and near gale force winds in a 36' sport fisherman (the storm came out from nowhere and trapped us offshore). During white knuckle trips like these, you become very humble in the face of mother nature's fury. I always trust my boat more than my own limitations, and fortunately, we keep making it back to home port.

I look at my cars like a boat. I try to select the ones that will save my ass when it's hanging out in the wind.

Originally Posted by beden1

I look at my cars like a boat. I try to select the ones that will save my ass when it's hanging out in the wind.

...and then, no doubt, do your level best to keep said ass out of said wind.

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

My grandfather bought two Oldsmobile Toronado's simultaneously for himself and his son in 1966, one was harvest gold the other hunter green. I don't remember them (I was all of 2 years old) but I do remember them giving me a plastic showroom model which I played with until I was 10.

My uncle's next car was a 1968 Jaguar XKE, burgandy, which he sold for peanuts in 1975. Still hate him for that. Even though he's dead.

BJ

When I returned from VietNam, I got stationed in Ft Worth and my boss had also returned from the war and being a Colonel he was able to afford a golden '67 Toronado...what a beauty! I used to take the long walk around the parking lot after work, just to stand next to that golden car. I remember how he used to go on trips during weekends to Central Texas to the BBQ famous joints and would come back bragging about that huge engine's 8.9 mpg.

Of course, here in TX about that time, gas was around .30/gal and they gave you cutlery or dishes or TX Cowboys glasses with 8 gal purchase or more. Those where the days!!!!

I'd probably go for a new, non-performance compact (e.g. Golf or Mini) over a 10 year old BMW. I would imagine a newer car has better safety features (airbags etc.) and will hopefully be more reliable. Also, a kid with a BMW is probably going to be under more peer pressure to drive it fast since that's what BMWs are supposed to do.

[QUOTE=Chris90;7405637]Damnit.

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

No. Great opinions in this thread, lots to think about now. It'll be a BMW, just need to think hard on the convertible decision which I want for myself but might not be safe for my son.



Base. Sorry.


BJ

so im driving the wrong car i knew it, i should have gotten an audi

E46 325 with stick. Not so big he can pack a bunch of friends in it. Cheap to work on.

Sent from my MB525 using Bimmer App

[QUOTE=BMW X Series;7408333]

Originally Posted by Chris90

Damnit.





so im driving the wrong car i knew i should have gotten an audi

My wife's considering an audi next...I almost kicked her out of bed last night.

[QUOTE=suneil;7408772]

Originally Posted by BMW X Series

My wife's considering an audi next...I almost kicked her out of bed last night.

I'm considering one as well. I want to check out the new S8 as a replacement for our Florida car.

CA

[QUOTE=captainaudio;7408972]

Originally Posted by suneil

I'm considering one as well. I want to check out the new S8 as a replacement for our Florida car.

CA

Sat in one at the show. Its pretty sweet. I have driven an f01...if it was my money I would take the S8.