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E90/E91/E92/E93 (2006 - 2013)
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  #1  
Old 02-24-2013, 07:08 PM
rmnelson12 rmnelson12 is offline
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Question Mixing Non RFT with RFTs, Extreme Tread Wear

Hey all,
I purchased my CPO 09 E93 in October and the CPO inspection reported 3mm on the rear tires at 16,600 miles.
After visiting the dealership this weekend, I was told my rear tires need to be changed immediately at 20,857 miles. Yes the tread is low, but I need to change them so soon??

Currently I have Bridgestone Potenza RFT, F: 225/35-19, R: 255/30-19 (New and mounted at 11,250 miles)

After doing some research and the complaints about the RFT tires, I was looking at the Michelin Pilot Super Sport (non-RFT). I wanted to change all four at once, but the tread on the front tires is still in great condition and I don't want to throw away $500.

Would it be advisable to just change out the rear tires with the super sports? or should I change em all, at the cost of good tires?

Also, could I report any type of claim to BMW NA about the extreme tread wear in such short time/mileage?

Lastly, where do you all recommend getting the tires mounted, balanced and aligned? I am definitely going through Tire Rack to save.... would it be frowned upon to bring tires to the dealership??

Thanks all

Last edited by rmnelson12; 02-24-2013 at 07:23 PM.
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  #2  
Old 02-24-2013, 07:25 PM
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pointandgo pointandgo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rmnelson12 View Post
Hey all,
I purchased my CPO 09 E93 in October and the CPO inspection reported 3mm on the rear tires at 16,600 miles.
After visiting the dealership this weekend, I was told my rear tires need to be changed immediately at 20,857 miles. Yes the tread is low, but I need to change them so soon??

Currently I have Bridgestone Potenza RFT, F: 225/35-19, R: 255/30-19

After doing some research and the complaints about the RFT tires, I was looking at the Michelin Pilot Super Sport (non-RFT). I wanted to change all four at once, but the tread on the front tires is still in great condition and I don't want to throw away $500.

Would it be advisable to just change out the rear tires with the super sports? or should I change em all, at the cost of good tires?

Also, could I report any type of claim to BMW NA about the extreme tread wear in such short time/mileage?

Lastly, where do you all recommend getting the tires mounted, balanced and aligned? I am definitely going through Tire Rack to save.... would it be frowned upon to bring tires to the dealership??

Thanks all
Don't even think about mixing RF and non-RF tires. There's no tire manufacturer in the world that recommends this except for temporary emergency purposes (one tire).

I'm one that successfully "petitioned" my tire manufacturer (E92) on the basis of low tire mileage. Don't bother calling BMW NA as they'll blow you off.

My tires were 18" and the manufacturer (at first) tried to blow smoke up my *ss about them being "low profile, high performance tires," that "can't be expected to get many miles." It was fun to point out to this manufacturer that they had 40,000 MILEAGE WARRANTIES on so-called "low profile, high performance tires" on their web site," so why did I get only 20K?

We eventually "negotiated" a reasonable trade-in for my tires. I saved over $800.

You may have MORE difficulty in making a "mileage claim" with 19" tires, as there is a definite perception in the industry that 19...20" tires are just miserable for mileage (true).

You can try with your tire manufacturer...but don't have high expectations.
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  #3  
Old 02-24-2013, 10:21 PM
Bmr3sn Bmr3sn is offline
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"Don't even think about mixing RF and non-RF tires."

Guess I don't understand why you couldn't do this? I can see not running a rear tire set this way, but what's wrong with running them front to back?
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  #4  
Old 02-25-2013, 06:39 AM
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DSXMachina DSXMachina is offline
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"Lastly, where do you all recommend getting the tires mounted, balanced and aligned? I am definitely going through Tire Rack to save.... would it be frowned upon to bring tires to the dealership??"

They just might say "no thanks" but it wouldn't hurt to ask. Don't expect to win any friends doing that. Instead, buy from TireRack but then take the tires to one of their certified installers in your area. They vet all installer applicants to make sure they have the knowledge and correct equipment to properly install your tires. They also publish the associated costs and ensure all of their installers perform to standard. Everything you need to know is on their website.
I used to be a TR installer, still am a certified drop site, but stopped the arrangement when I was selling enough tires myself that I didn't need to try to make money on installs only. That's a narrow profit margin, and narrower still when risk is factored in. The simple fact is that your best relationship is going to be with the installer who also sold you the tires. If something goes wrong he eats it, there's no finger pointing at a third party.
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  #5  
Old 02-25-2013, 08:26 AM
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This thread has been posted on all the BMW sites, hope the OP is not looking for a different answer.
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  #6  
Old 02-25-2013, 09:03 AM
rmnelson12 rmnelson12 is offline
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Originally Posted by bear-avhistory View Post
This thread has been posted on all the BMW sites, hope the OP is not looking for a different answer.
No just looking for diversity.. seems pretty aligned.
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  #7  
Old 02-25-2013, 10:17 AM
Tom K. Tom K. is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bmr3sn View Post
"Don't even think about mixing RF and non-RF tires."

Guess I don't understand why you couldn't do this? I can see not running a rear tire set this way, but what's wrong with running them front to back?
The differing handling characteristics will often result in dangerous and unpredictable vehicle behavior - especially in emergency situations.

Back in the day when radials were first introduced to the US, some folks tried mixing them with existing bias ply rubber with some ugly results.

So if you plan to drive only on dry pavement and never over 30 mph, perhaps it will work for you. Otherwise, either replace your rear RFTs with the same tire as the fronts (RE 050A?), or buy 4 go-flats and sell your existing front tires to recoup some of the money.

My dealer is happy to mount and balance tires, but they will not mount non-RFTs, however Tire Rack will provide a list of recommended installers in your area.

Tom
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  #8  
Old 02-25-2013, 11:02 AM
CALLAWAY845 CALLAWAY845 is offline
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I would give a local, well known, tire shop a shot at the sale. I was going to do the tirerack/local install idea, but I actually saved money on a new set of 4 Michelin pilot super sports by having Discount tire take care of it. Their pricing was excellent, and I think there is value to being able to stop by with an issue; the first thing they ask is "did you buy those tires here". Answering yes to this question...they are more likely to go the extra mile for you.
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  #9  
Old 02-25-2013, 11:50 AM
Rainman519 Rainman519 is offline
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+1 on mixing RFT's and non-RFTs. Your setting yourself up for a bad situation. I just purchased Michelin PS, non-RFT from Tire Rack. I may be one of the lucky ones, but my dealer did mount/balance/install them (with a stern lecture on the evils of non-RFTs on a BMW of course). Make sure to get the car aligned afterwards. You'll be very happy in the end, it's like driving a totally different car. Good luck.
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  #10  
Old 02-25-2013, 12:29 PM
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SD Z4MR SD Z4MR is offline
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I used to buy all my tires from Tire Rack over at least a 20 year period but I haven't bought from them for at least 3 years. Prices have become more competitive between them and Discount Tire when you take into account the shipping fee and separate mounting and balancing fee. Part of the reason is that shipping costs have gone up dramatically due to fuel costs. Costco has also been very close in price and they include a free 5-year road hazard warranty so I've bought at least two sets from them in the last 2 years. However, all of this depends on where you live.

I also second the warning not to mix RFTs with non-RFTs because you will get unpredictable handling and braking. Most tire manufacturers even recommend not mixing different manufacturer's tires on the same car because different tires have different characteristics. It's much safer when all four tires have the same characteristics. Think about walking or running with a dress shoe on one foot and a running shoe on the other, it's pretty much the same thing. Google "mixed tires" and you'll get plenty of hits.
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  #11  
Old 02-25-2013, 01:28 PM
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furby076 furby076 is online now
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If you want to mix tires then only do so front to back. Your front two tires should be the same. Your back two tires should be the same. The front and back tires can be different. In other words. If Brand X is on your front two tires, you can use any brand Y on your rear two tires. Where you do not want the difference putting one set of tires on the left and a different set on the right.

For those that say "no don't do it, they are different sizes front to back and you can't do that"...I pointed you in the direction of Staggard Tires. If I can have 18 in the front, and 20 in the rear then I can have brand X in the front and brand Y in the rear.

On a side note, if you do go non-rft then make sure to have a spare or some way (fix-a-flat) to fix it.

Other than the mileage do you dislike RFT? I enjoyed my RFT because they did work. Minus punctures from nails I didn't have mileage issues with them. You may want to try different RFTs. I used pirelli p-zero nero. TireRack. Even the sales person at the dealership admitted they were much nicer then what they offer
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  #12  
Old 02-25-2013, 01:33 PM
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furby076 furby076 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom K. View Post
The differing handling characteristics will often result in dangerous and unpredictable vehicle behavior - especially in emergency situations.

Back in the day when radials were first introduced to the US, some folks tried mixing them with existing bias ply rubber with some ugly results.

So if you plan to drive only on dry pavement and never over 30 mph, perhaps it will work for you. Otherwise, either replace your rear RFTs with the same tire as the fronts (RE 050A?), or buy 4 go-flats and sell your existing front tires to recoup some of the money.

My dealer is happy to mount and balance tires, but they will not mount non-RFTs, however Tire Rack will provide a list of recommended installers in your area.

Tom
Let's not compare radials to ply rubber to this situation.

Can you explain why it's a bad idea, when staggered tires are perfectly fine - and those have dramatically different characteristics.
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I started to google to find a picture to match furby's suggestion to Gia, but it quickly became clear it was an inappropriate search to conduct at work.
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  #13  
Old 02-25-2013, 02:46 PM
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SD Z4MR SD Z4MR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by furby076 View Post
If you want to mix tires then only do so front to back. Your front two tires should be the same. Your back two tires should be the same. The front and back tires can be different. In other words. If Brand X is on your front two tires, you can use any brand Y on your rear two tires. Where you do not want the difference putting one set of tires on the left and a different set on the right.

For those that say "no don't do it, they are different sizes front to back and you can't do that"...I pointed you in the direction of Staggard Tires. If I can have 18 in the front, and 20 in the rear then I can have brand X in the front and brand Y in the rear.
I'm sure that you meant "staggered tires". Cars fitted with a staggered setup, like the 335 with the Sport Package or the M Sport Package, generally have the same size wheels (18" or 19") but the tire width and/or profile are different, with the wider tire being fitted to the rear. In all cases the tires are the exact same manufacturer and model, just different widths.

Here's the content of the page on Tire Rack about mixing tires. They must be one of those that say "no, don't do it". And it doesn't follow that if you have a staggered setup you can have brand X in the front and brand Y in the rear. If they have different handling and braking characteristics then that would be an unsafe combination.
As a general rule, tires should not be mixed on any vehicle unless specified as acceptable by the tire or vehicle manufacturer. Drivers should avoid mixing tires with different tread patterns, internal constructions or sizes, and use identical tires on all of their vehicle's wheel positions in order to maintain the best control and stability. Additionally, drivers should never mix winter tires with all-season/summer tires, or mix run-flat tires with non-run-flat tires.

This is one of the reasons that it is desirable to have all of a vehicle's tires wear out at the same time. It's confirmation that the vehicle design, driving conditions and maintenance practices worked in unison to equalize tire wear and performance. It also lets drivers know they got their money's worth out of the current tires and allows them to choose a set of replacements that will either maintain the Original Equipment (O.E.) tires' capabilities, or help tune the vehicle's qualities to even better suit their needs.

Unfortunately wearing out all tires at the same time isn't always possible. Sometimes vehicle design, the use of differently sized tires on front and rear axles, insufficient maintenance and/or driving conditions conspire to prevent it from happening.

If a vehicle's tires don't all wear out at the same time, drivers are typically forced to decide whether they should purchase a new set of tires (forfeiting the worth of the two tires not fully worn out) or just a pair of replacements. While purchasing a new set of tires is best because it will maintain the handling balance engineered into the vehicle while restoring poor weather traction, it is also more expensive. And while purchasing a pair of replacement tires reduces immediate expense, it brings with it the options of choosing exact, equivalent or alternative tires.

Of the three, the best choice is to select the exact tire currently on the vehicle. This assures that the tire's physical dimensions, internal construction, tread design and tread compound are equal to the tires being replaced.

The second option is to choose equivalent tires from the same tire performance category that share the same speed rating, handling and traction characteristics of the original tires. While this isn't as desirable as selecting the exact tire currently on the vehicle, it can become necessary when the original tires are no longer available.

The third option, choosing alternative tires, should only be considered as a temporary solution in an emergency situation. Using alternative tires from different tire performance categories, with alternate sizes or different speed ratings can unbalance the vehicle's handling in poor weather or when pushed to the limit in an emergency.

Because tires play such an important role in every vehicle's comfort qualities and handling capabilities, it is always best to drive on tires that are identical in every detail, including tire brand, model, size and remaining tread depth. Anything else involves some type of compromise.

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiret...currentpage=52
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Last edited by SD Z4MR; 02-25-2013 at 02:48 PM.
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  #14  
Old 02-25-2013, 02:59 PM
Tom K. Tom K. is offline
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Originally Posted by furby076 View Post
Let's not compare radials to ply rubber to this situation.

Can you explain why it's a bad idea, when staggered tires are perfectly fine - and those have dramatically different characteristics.
OEM staggered tires are always the same make and model and therefore have the SAME characteristics due to similarity of tread design, construction, etc.

Radials and bias ply tires have different characteristics due to differing belt construction. RFT and non-RFT tires have different characteristics due to differing sidewall construction. I'd say it's a legitimate comparison, especially as both instances can result in one abruptly and unexpectedly leaving the pavement.

Tom
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Old 02-25-2013, 06:57 PM
Texus Texus is offline
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I just ordered super sports from Tire rack. They are actually more expensive than local dealers on these tires. The problem is, all the locals can't get super sports (rears) since they are back ordered until end of March. After a few more miles I'll give them a nice test on the local clover leaf entrance ramp. :-)

Last edited by Texus; 02-25-2013 at 06:58 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 02-25-2013, 07:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rmnelson12 View Post
Hey all,
I purchased my CPO 09 E93 in October and the CPO inspection reported 3mm on the rear tires at 16,600 miles.
After visiting the dealership this weekend, I was told my rear tires need to be changed immediately at 20,857 miles. Yes the tread is low, but I need to change them so soon??

Currently I have Bridgestone Potenza RFT, F: 225/35-19, R: 255/30-19 (New and mounted at 11,250 miles)

After doing some research and the complaints about the RFT tires, I was looking at the Michelin Pilot Super Sport (non-RFT). I wanted to change all four at once, but the tread on the front tires is still in great condition and I don't want to throw away $500.

Would it be advisable to just change out the rear tires with the super sports? or should I change em all, at the cost of good tires?

Also, could I report any type of claim to BMW NA about the extreme tread wear in such short time/mileage?

Lastly, where do you all recommend getting the tires mounted, balanced and aligned? I am definitely going through Tire Rack to save.... would it be frowned upon to bring tires to the dealership??

Thanks all

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Old 02-25-2013, 07:36 PM
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CALWATERBOY CALWATERBOY is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rmnelson12 View Post
Hey all,
I purchased my CPO 09 E93 in October and the CPO inspection reported 3mm on the rear tires at 16,600 miles.
After visiting the dealership this weekend, I was told my rear tires need to be changed immediately at 20,857 miles. Yes the tread is low, but I need to change them so soon??

Currently I have Bridgestone Potenza RFT, F: 225/35-19, R: 255/30-19 (New and mounted at 11,250 miles)

Get an alignment - set rear camber to the minimum of the range. E9x is famous for rear tire wear, RFT or no. 20k mi is high for rears.

You'll bless the day you score PSS's - I did. If you get the bug to suspension mod, I'll route you to what I did. Otherwise consider switching to Koni FSD's.

Capt'n?
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Old 02-25-2013, 07:40 PM
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CALWATERBOY CALWATERBOY is offline
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Originally Posted by DSXMachina View Post
...***** from TireRack but then take the tires to one of their certified installers in your area. They vet all installer applicants to make sure they have the knowledge and correct equipment to properly install your tires. They also publish the associated costs and ensure all of their installers perform to standard. Everything you need to know is on their website.

A big +1 on that.

TireRack sends tires directly to a certified installer - there are several in my area. Pick who you like and let it happen - my experience has been uniformly good.

48 hrs from order to delivery here, coming from Nevada.
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Old 02-25-2013, 11:45 PM
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SD Z4MR SD Z4MR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Texus View Post
I just ordered super sports from Tire rack. They are actually more expensive than local dealers on these tires. The problem is, all the locals can't get super sports (rears) since they are back ordered until end of March. After a few more miles I'll give them a nice test on the local clover leaf entrance ramp. :-)
I have Michelin Pilot Super Sports on my M Roadster. They're awesome tires!
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Old 02-26-2013, 06:49 AM
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furby076 furby076 is online now
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Originally Posted by Tom K. View Post
OEM staggered tires are always the same make and model and therefore have the SAME characteristics due to similarity of tread design, construction, etc.

Radials and bias ply tires have different characteristics due to differing belt construction. RFT and non-RFT tires have different characteristics due to differing sidewall construction. I'd say it's a legitimate comparison, especially as both instances can result in one abruptly and unexpectedly leaving the pavement.

Tom
Unless there is solid evidence, not the manufacturer stating that when you replace one tire you have to replace all four tires, and when you replace them you can only use their brands in an all or none situation, then I will be in disbelief for front vs back. The size of the tires (18 to 20) plus the height difference (some due to car some due to suspension some due to tires) makes a bigger difference then the tread design. Also, I definitely disagree about the sidewall as a legitimate comparison. While it makes for a stiffer ride, it doesn't impact enough for emergency situation. I think the key thing is to have tires with good tread.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Texus View Post
I just ordered super sports from Tire rack. They are actually more expensive than local dealers on these tires. The problem is, all the locals can't get super sports (rears) since they are back ordered until end of March. After a few more miles I'll give them a nice test on the local clover leaf entrance ramp. :-)
Tirerack more expensive than dealers? Hmm. Do yourself a favor, check out what the dealers are charging for install. Potentially the dealers are lowering the price of the tires, but jacking up the install price. Also, if the dealers can't get the tires until the end of March, but TireRack can, then it doesn't hurt the dealer at all to lower prices on non-existant inventory.

I also recommend buying a couple spares. I kept two in my basement which was nice if I got a flat and didn't want to be at the mercy of the dealer prices and dealer availability (I prefer the Pirelli which the dealer did not have)
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