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F30 / F31 / F32 / F33 (2012 - current)
The sixth generation 3 series, chassis code F30. 2013 model year 328i and 335i sedans now in production. Read the F30 frequently asked question thread for all your basic question and dive into all the details in the ultimate F30 information thread.

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  #101  
Old 03-05-2013, 04:24 PM
metrathon metrathon is offline
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If being seen in a luxury car embarrasses you, stop buying them.

BJ
Smart reply and to the point. Keep up the good job
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  #102  
Old 03-05-2013, 04:56 PM
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Smart reply and to the point. Keep up the good job
Thanks.

Too many people are trying to make their BMW into something it isn't. One could make the argument that an E36 and maybe even an E46 were sportscars made by a luxury car company, but the F30 is clearly a luxury car made by a luxury car company.

BJ
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  #103  
Old 03-05-2013, 05:10 PM
metrathon metrathon is offline
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Thanks.

Too many people are trying to make their BMW into something it isn't. One could make the argument that an E36 and maybe even an E46 were sportscars made by a luxury car company, but the F30 is clearly a luxury car made by a luxury car company.

BJ
BJ, if the F30 is luxury in your opinion, then what do you consider a F01? Extra-super-dooper-unimaginable-out-of-this-world luxury? Or a Bentley? Or a Phantom?

Don't confuse softer suspension and numb steering with luxury. Just because the Dreier lost some of "sportscar" characteristics, doesn't mean it's more "luxury" now.
Yes it is softer, more mainstream. But luxury it's about sophistication, low availability, excess, sumptuousness and high desirability. The 328i has none of this. An S Klass is luxury, a 750i or an A8. The 3 (28i especially) at the most, it's a cheap, entry level, wanna-be luxury.

Anyway, to each his own.
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  #104  
Old 03-05-2013, 06:03 PM
Jamesonsviggen Jamesonsviggen is offline
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Right now I think the 3 series is running on fumes, on past glory. In my opinion they still have a few strong points, but fewer and fewer. They charge too much just because once they were king of the hill. That started to change (A4, C, ATS, G, damn even Genesis) and it will become more apparent in the next few years.
Dont agree.

There are people like me, people that had reservations about living with a prior three series.

It was like I was Goldilocks, and there was no "just right. The car felt cramped, the trunk too small, the back seat too tight. Gas mileage of models with X drive were not competitive, fairly stripped base models.

Here comes the F30, finally feels just the right size, decent trunk, far more inhabitable back seats, lots more standard features like the dual power seats, split fold rear seats, etc. Class leading fuel economy and acceleration.

It has lost a small percentage of steering weight and steering feel, and it's a bit softer, feels like a bit more body roll. But its all a stiffer and better balanced chassis.

So it gave up a small bit in column A that enthusiasts like me miss, but also gave a lot more in a variety of other columns. So how that makes it less competitive, I don't know-I don't see it that way.

If you want to go by sales numbers...1) Its more competitive out there than ever, if the F30 was out 2.5 years ago, it would get praise galore, but now we have more compelling options. 2)Just wait, the F30 is still in newborn status, Xdrive is only a thing to be seen on lots in the past 5 months, the Wagon, the coupe and convertible sales will kick in too and F30 sales will continue to climb. I am confident if you compare sales at beginning of cycle mid and end, the F30 will bring in more buyers than the E90.

Again, I can't be the only person that finds the F30 is finally the right size. I am sure plenty of buyers found the past 3 series took too much effort to steer or rode too firm. We mock those people. But guess what, they may love the F30 which makes it competitive as ever.
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  #105  
Old 03-05-2013, 06:07 PM
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BJ, if the F30 is luxury in your opinion, then what do you consider a F01? Extra-super-dooper-unimaginable-out-of-this-world luxury? Or a Bentley? Or a Phantom?

Don't confuse softer suspension and numb steering with luxury. Just because the Dreier lost some of "sportscar" characteristics, doesn't mean it's more "luxury" now.
Yes it is softer, more mainstream. But luxury it's about sophistication, low availability, excess, sumptuousness and high desirability. The 328i has none of this. An S Klass is luxury, a 750i or an A8. The 3 (28i especially) at the most, it's a cheap, entry level, wanna-be luxury.

Anyway, to each his own.
BMW is a luxury brand. They could put a plastic milk crate on aluminum roller skate wheels, it's still a luxury car.

Rolex makes some basic, functional, uncomplicated watches. They're still Rolexes.

BJ
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  #106  
Old 03-05-2013, 06:09 PM
metrathon metrathon is offline
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Dont agree.

There are people like me, people that had reservations about living with a prior three series.

It was like I was Goldilocks, and there was no "just right. The car felt cramped, the trunk too small, the back seat too tight. Gas mileage of models with X drive were not competitive, fairly stripped base models.

Here comes the F30, finally feels just the right size, decent trunk, far more inhabitable back seats, lots more standard features like the dual power seats, split fold rear seats, etc. Class leading fuel economy and acceleration.

It has lost a small percentage of steering weight and steering feel, and it's a bit softer, feels like a bit more body roll. But its all a stiffer and better balanced chassis.

So it gave up a small bit in column A that enthusiasts like me miss, but also gave a lot more in a variety of other columns. So how that makes it less competitive, I don't know-I don't see it that way.

If you want to go by sales numbers...1) Its more competitive out there than ever, if the F30 was out 2.5 years ago, it would get praise galore, but now we have more compelling options. 2)Just wait, the F30 is still in newborn status, Xdrive is only a thing to be seen on lots in the past 5 months, the Wagon, the coupe and convertible sales will kick in too and F30 sales will continue to climb. I am confident if you compare sales at beginning of cycle mid and end, the F30 will bring in more buyers than the E90.

Again, I can't be the only person that finds the F30 is finally the right size. I am sure plenty of buyers found the past 3 series took too much effort to steer or rode to firm. We mock those people. But guess what, they may love the F30 which makes it competitive as ever.
I don't think it's less competitive but what I'm saying is that it's re-positioning itself as we speak, from the Ultimate Driving Machine to ... something else. More main stream I would say. And when you drop what made you special and unique over the last 30 years, you leave the door open for the competitors to come in.

The 3 series is not known for more room. It's known for handling, and crispness and balance and yes - the steering weight, etc, etc. Pretty much what they have been giving up with the last models. Those are the fumes I was talking about.

In my opinion the entry barrier for the 3 Series wanna-be has been lowered.
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  #107  
Old 03-05-2013, 06:11 PM
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Again, I can't be the only person that finds the F30 is finally the right size. I am sure plenty of buyers found the past 3 series took too much effort to steer or rode too firm. We mock those people. But guess what, they may love the F30 which makes it competitive as ever.
+1

Sums my motivation very nicely. And, I'll add, they did something magical and unexpected with a 4 cylinder powerplant. It wasn't just the too-firm suspension that doomed the 328i E90. It was the lack of torque that was its biggest performance challenge, and BMW has now addressed it. The car is bigger, softer, and faster. Just what the doctor ordered.

BJ
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  #108  
Old 03-05-2013, 06:13 PM
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I don't think it's less competitive but what I'm saying is that it's re-positioning itself as we speak, from the Ultimate Driving Machine to ... something else. More main stream I would say. And when you drop what made you special and unique over the last 30 years, you leave the door open for the competitors to come in.

The 3 series is not known for more room. It's known for handling, and crispness and balance and yes - the steering weight, etc, etc. Pretty much what they have been giving up with the last models. Those are the fumes I was talking about.

In my opinion the entry barrier for the 3 Series wanna-be has been lowered.
True points all, but this is an incomplete work, the painting is still in-process.

The 4 Series looks incredible and will be very sporty when released in 2014.

The 1 Series Sedan will return to BMW's roots when released in 2015.

The 3 Series is the new E39. The 1 Series will be the new E46. Had they released the second car first, you'd be ecstatic but BMW would have lost a customer in me, several million, in fact. First they serve the mass, then they'll serve the niche. Be patient.

BJ
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  #109  
Old 03-05-2013, 06:17 PM
Jamesonsviggen Jamesonsviggen is offline
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I don't think it's less competitive but what I'm saying is that it's re-positioning itself as we speak, from the Ultimate Driving Machine to ... something else. More main stream I would say. And when you drop what made you special and unique over the last 30 years, you leave the door open for the competitors to come in.

The 3 series is not known for more room. It's known for handling, and crispness and balance and yes - the steering weight, etc, etc. Pretty much what they have been giving up with the last models. Those are the fumes I was talking about.

In my opinion the entry barrier for the 3 Series wanna-be has been lowered.
If you read my reply to you, it applies here again.

If you think the 3 series has abandoned what makes it a 3 series, you are mistaken and perhaps only see things in black and white. That is ok.

But there is a difference between a reduction and elimination.

What I said was, there is a small reduction in some of the factors that defined the car. But that reduction is not an elimination. For it's reduction, its doing a fair amount of things better than it ever has.

Now plenty of car mags have reviewed it. They mention some of the reductions that drivers like them miss, but they also say much of the 3 series DNA is still there and its been awarded the top prize in most head to heads, 10 best lists etc.

If it is really as bleak as you say, then every writer would say the 3 series has been killed, they got rid of everything that made the 3 series great, buy a Camry. That simply has not happened.

But you can be the pessimist and say that all those magazine writers are on some payroll and only praising the car because of its PREVIOUS showings.

Fine.

Maybe then the F30 can be a flop, you guys are right, and so many of us driving our cars can be wrong. Less people will buy them so it can be more of an inside secret.
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  #110  
Old 03-05-2013, 06:23 PM
metrathon metrathon is offline
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BMW is a luxury brand. They could put a plastic milk crate on aluminum roller skate wheels, it's still a luxury car.

Rolex makes some basic, functional, uncomplicated watches. They're still Rolexes.

BJ
For a guy that usually has tons of arguments, now you're behaving weird. Repeating the same thing without an argument - just your opinion - won't change the reality, even if you make it Italic.

Look: for you it might be luxury because that's what you decided based on your experience, and I'm absolutely fine with that, I respect it. I'm happy that you are excited about your Dreier - so am I, but probably for other reasons.

Like you said, I'm sure that if BMW would decide to put a plastic milk crate on wheels, there will be some that will call that luxury. Chances are they are brainwashed and drooling at every BMW commercial - I know a few guys like that. That's cool. But to have them fools trying to tell me that that crate it's the pinnacle of luxury ... that's another story.

I asked you a simple question and you didn't answer: if the 3 is luxury in your book, then what is a 7?
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  #111  
Old 03-05-2013, 06:28 PM
Jamesonsviggen Jamesonsviggen is offline
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I asked you a simple question and you didn't answer: if the 3 is luxury in your book, then what is a 7?
For arguments sake...
3=ENTRY LEVEL LUXURY, assistant to so and so-aspirational
5=MIDDLE WEIGHT, middle management LUXURY -getting there
7=LUXURY LUXURY, boss man-arrived
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  #112  
Old 03-05-2013, 06:32 PM
metrathon metrathon is offline
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If you read my reply to you, it applies here again.

If you think the 3 series has abandoned what makes it a 3 series, you are mistaken and perhaps only see things in black and white. That is ok.

But there is a difference between a reduction and elimination.

What I said was, there is a small reduction in some of the factors that defined the car. But that reduction is not an elimination. For it's reduction, its doing a fair amount of things better than it ever has.

Now plenty of car mags have reviewed it. They mention some of the reductions that drivers like them miss, but they also say much of the 3 series DNA is still there and its been awarded the top prize in most head to heads, 10 best lists etc.

If it is really as bleak as you say, then every writer would say the 3 series has been killed, they got rid of everything that made the 3 series great, buy a Camry. That simply has not happened.

But you can be the pessimist and say that all those magazine writers are on some payroll and only praising the car because of its PREVIOUS showings.

Fine.

Maybe then the F30 can be a flop, you guys are right, and so many of us driving our cars can be wrong. Less people will buy them so it can be more of an inside secret.
Now you're pushing my words into extreme, to make your point

You're right, it's a reduction not an elimination. But it's a CONTINUOUS reduction, from model to model and in 5 years it will be indeed an elimination, if you compare the next Dreier with the E46 let's say.

How come, the first ATS that gets through the door of Cadillac factory gets reviewed as being more "sportier" than the 3 Series? How did that happened? Did Cady get lucky and draw the right lines, or indeed the 3 lost its sporty mojo?

Anyway, the changes the 3 went through is something that I personally like. I'm not a sporty driver, I prefer a softer car, bigger, better sound proofing. I like the direction. But soon is not going to be the Ultimate Driving Machine anymore. It's like you say that Magic Johnson is the best player. No dude, he's 800 pounds now and cannot climb 40 steps. He WAS the best, now all he has is the name.
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  #113  
Old 03-05-2013, 06:34 PM
metrathon metrathon is offline
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For arguments sake...
3=ENTRY LEVEL LUXURY, assistant to so and so-aspirational
5=MIDDLE WEIGHT, middle management LUXURY -getting there
7=LUXURY LUXURY, boss man-arrived
Lol, then Mini is an entry-entry luxury, for the intern

I love my non-luxury 328i because I take it for what it is
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  #114  
Old 03-05-2013, 06:46 PM
Jamesonsviggen Jamesonsviggen is offline
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Now you're pushing my words into extreme, to make your point

You're right, it's a reduction not an elimination. But it's a CONTINUOUS reduction, from model to model and in 5 years it will be indeed an elimination, if you compare the next Dreier with the E46 let's say.

How come, the first ATS that gets through the door of Cadillac factory gets reviewed as being more "sportier" than the 3 Series? How did that happened? Did Cady get lucky and draw the right lines, or indeed the 3 lost its sporty mojo?

Anyway, the changes the 3 went through is something that I personally like. I'm not a sporty driver, I prefer a softer car, bigger, better sound proofing. I like the direction. But soon is not going to be the Ultimate Driving Machine anymore. It's like you say that Magic Johnson is the best player. No dude, he's 800 pounds now and cannot climb 40 steps. He WAS the best, now all he has is the name.

I am busting your balls a bit because you said one thing like the three is less and less and then name the A4 etc, but then didn't want to say you were saying it is less competitive. I mean, they are pretty much the same statement, just word play.

I cannot speak to what the 3 WILL become if this keeps up. When I dated the adorable blonde when I was 23, I cared about what she was at 23, not about how she might get fat and droopy at 35 as I was not planning on being around by that time anyway.


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Lol, then Mini is an entry-entry luxury, for the intern

I love my non-luxury 328i because I take it for what it is

I am confident in my shoes, and confident in my car purchases too. Dunno what all the fuss is about.
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  #115  
Old 03-05-2013, 06:57 PM
metrathon metrathon is offline
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I am busting your balls a bit because you said one thing like the three is less and less and then name the A4 etc, but then didn't want to say you were saying it is less competitive. I mean, they are pretty much the same statement, just word play.
My poor English or poor choice of words might have led to this little misunderstanding. Let's clarify it:

1. I strongly believe that the 3 has become more competitive with the F30. It is more main stream, so it addresses a wider market, so probably it will sell better compared to last iterations.

2. However, as a result of this opening process, the core characteristics which gained the Dreier its fame are continually diluted until nothing, except its name, will remind us of the "enthusiast" years of '90. With (a respectable) delay, people will start realizing that they are not getting the Ultimate Driving Machine anymore.

Who knows? Maybe the Dreier will still be the bestseller in 10 years from now, but for other reasons and not for what made it famous.

Hmmm ... are we off topic?

Last edited by metrathon; 03-05-2013 at 07:00 PM.
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  #116  
Old 03-05-2013, 07:13 PM
Jamesonsviggen Jamesonsviggen is offline
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My poor English or poor choice of words might have led to this little misunderstanding. Let's clarify it:

1. I strongly believe that the 3 has become more competitive with the F30. It is more main stream, so it addresses a wider market, so probably it will sell better compared to last iterations.

2. However, as a result of this opening process, the core characteristics which gained the Dreier its fame are continually diluted until nothing, except its name, will remind us of the "enthusiast" years of '90. With (a respectable) delay, people will start realizing that they are not getting the Ultimate Driving Machine anymore.

Who knows? Maybe the Dreier will still be the bestseller in 10 years from now, but for other reasons and not for what made it famous.

Hmmm ... are we off topic?
I am glad the f30 is bigger without being heavier.

Look at the power to weight ratio of the base 3 over the past 10 years, pretty sure the F30 is on top.
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  #117  
Old 03-05-2013, 07:19 PM
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I asked you a simple question and you didn't answer: if the 3 is luxury in your book, then what is a 7?
BMW's strategy is like Armani suits. It's one thing in multiple sizes.

Depending on your age, family size, and status-symbol needs, grab a BMW Sedan, pick your size, enjoy your luxury.

3 = Small
5 = Medium
7 = Large

As a daily commuter car, travel-soccer driver, ballet-recital mover, and travel-baseball hauler in swanky Bergen County, I chose a $50,000 3 Series fully loaded. I could have instead chosen a $50,000 5 Series stripped if my family needs required it. The 7 Series will never be for me, it's just too big, I've got a minivan or an SUV for that purpose.

BJ
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  #118  
Old 03-05-2013, 07:22 PM
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I love my non-luxury 328i because I take it for what it is
Or, you accidentally bought the status-seeker stripper because you didn't get the memo that BMW stripped out the performance and you have to pay for it now.

There are at least a dozen other car brands out there to satisfy someone on a budget who is ashamed of status-symbols; pity you didn't pick one, wouldn't be so grumpy.

BJ
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  #119  
Old 03-05-2013, 07:28 PM
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I am confident in my shoes, and confident in my car purchases too. Dunno what all the fuss is about.
The fuss is about the fact that there is, as always, a disconnect between the performance myth and the status-symbol reality.

Last time we checked, the average age of a 3 Series driver is 47, she's 50% female, 60% of them are leasing, under 5% feature a "sport" configuration or a 335i powerplant.

What's amusing is that the progression from the E46 to E90 to F30 couldn't possibly make BMW's intentions more clear, yet some just want to deny that the 3 Series is now a larger and softer family car with a focus towards comfort and luxury and away from performance and sport. Those things are still there, are still possible, but no longer in the stripper $35,000 version. You need to spend $45,000 or more to get back what BMW used to give you for free.

BJ
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  #120  
Old 03-05-2013, 07:42 PM
Jamesonsviggen Jamesonsviggen is offline
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Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post

Last time we checked, the average age of a 3 Series driver is 47, she's 50% female



BJ
Wow, so I can be warned, which portion of the typical 3 series driver is female, the top half or bottom half?
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  #121  
Old 03-05-2013, 07:48 PM
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boltjaM3s boltjaM3s is online now
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Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
Wow, so I can be warned, which portion of the typical 3 series driver is female, the top half or bottom half?
Both, but I prefer the boot to the bonnet.

BJ
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  #122  
Old 03-05-2013, 08:21 PM
shag shag is offline
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Originally Posted by metrathon View Post
My poor English or poor choice of words might have led to this little misunderstanding. Let's clarify it:

1. I strongly believe that the 3 has become more competitive with the F30. It is more main stream, so it addresses a wider market, so probably it will sell better compared to last iterations.

2. However, as a result of this opening process, the core characteristics which gained the Dreier its fame are continually diluted until nothing, except its name, will remind us of the "enthusiast" years of '90. With (a respectable) delay, people will start realizing that they are not getting the Ultimate Driving Machine anymore.

Who knows? Maybe the Dreier will still be the bestseller in 10 years from now, but for other reasons and not for what made it famous.

Hmmm ... are we off topic?
You want an "enthusiast edition" 3er? Get an M Sport package car with DHP, Variable Steering & M Brakes. What's wrong with a little bit of technology? As far as I'm concerned, the glory days of the E30/E36 are long gone. Different car, different buyer, people grow older, times change.
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  #123  
Old 03-05-2013, 10:19 PM
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122 posts and no one has mentioned LED headlights! I thought this thread was supposed to be about headlights, right?
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  #124  
Old 03-06-2013, 07:37 AM
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Mark K Mark K is online now
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Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
Maybe then the F30 can be a flop, you guys are right, and so many of us driving our cars can be wrong. Less people will buy them so it can be more of an inside secret.
If I understood metrathon correctly, it is quite the opposite. Huge sales success will prove him correct. Just like VW never sold as many cars as they did since they dumbed-down Jetta and Passat, BMW making killing in sales of a new 3 series would mean exactly the same thing.

Some of us like that, some of us don't. But I think it is pretty obvious that it IS happening.

EDIT: my Xenons rock. You should get them. There, on topic now
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Last edited by Mark K; 03-06-2013 at 07:43 AM.
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  #125  
Old 03-06-2013, 08:07 AM
Jamesonsviggen Jamesonsviggen is offline
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Originally Posted by Mark K View Post
If I understood metrathon correctly, it is quite the opposite. Huge sales success will prove him correct. Just like VW never sold as many cars as they did since they dumbed-down Jetta and Passat, BMW making killing in sales of a new 3 series would mean exactly the same thing.

Some of us like that, some of us don't. But I think it is pretty obvious that it IS happening.

EDIT: my Xenons rock. You should get them. There, on topic now
If that was the case, the media would bash the he'll out of the car. The media is mentioning the slight toning down of certain elements, so its not like they are afraid to call it out how it is now.

Now, if BMW keeps it up, and keeps toning this down further, well we will talk then as I very well wont buy another 3 series. But for now,nothing THAT extreme has happened.
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