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E90/E91/E92/E93 (2006 - 2013)
The E9X is the 4th evolution of the BMW 3 series including a highly tuned twin turbo 335i variant pushing out 300hp and 300 ft. lbs. of torque. BMW continues to show that it sets the bar for true driving performance! -- View the E9X Wiki

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  #1  
Old 03-11-2013, 08:49 AM
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Pothole explosions explained

I didn't place this in General Automotive, because of what I said in the title of the thread. I was SHOCKED to watch this video (it's about Ford Fiesta ST) and find out where they test suspension limits. And this is Ford's test track, I would like to see BMW's test track.

And this is the reason we got a suspension that we did. I rarely DON'T blame BMW, but in this case I think we should stop taking potshots at BMW and start taking them where they need to be taken. You are a smart bunch, you will figure out where.

One more reason to stop b*tcing to BMW about suspension setup is the fact that when we do, then we get F30. Not good.

Here's the video, check the track (yes, I would murder for 20-30 laps on it):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=H-KempOrImw
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Old 03-11-2013, 09:16 AM
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I'll have to admit that the I didn't fully understand the Pothole Explosions issue with the E9x Sport Suspension, but now that I have seen that video of a Ford being driven by a professional driver on a test track it has suddenly become perfectly clear.

CA
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  #3  
Old 03-11-2013, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
I'll have to admit that the I didn't fully understand the Pothole Explosions issue with the E9x Sport Suspension, but now that I have seen that video of a Ford being driven by a professional driver on a test track it has suddenly become perfectly clear.

CA
LOL Capt'n, when I saw the title my immediate reaction was "Will CA finally be vindicated?" Sadly, no.
Still, the old PE thread was good times and it's good to have the memory resurrected from time to time.
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Old 03-11-2013, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark K View Post
I didn't place this in General Automotive, because of what I said in the title of the thread. I was SHOCKED to watch this video (it's about Ford Fiesta ST) and find out where they test suspension limits. And this is Ford's test track, I would like to see BMW's test track.

And this is the reason we got a suspension that we did. I rarely DON'T blame BMW, but in this case I think we should stop taking potshots at BMW and start taking them where they need to be taken. You are a smart bunch, you will figure out where.

One more reason to stop b*tcing to BMW about suspension setup is the fact that when we do, then we get F30. Not good.

Here's the video, check the track (yes, I would murder for 20-30 laps on it):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=H-KempOrImw
Do you really think this kind of surface is the only place car companies test? They test in all kinds of road conditions not just on perfectly smooth roads. Or am I completely misunderstanding your post?
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Old 03-11-2013, 10:58 AM
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Do you really think this kind of surface is the only place car companies test? They test in all kinds of road conditions not just on perfectly smooth roads. Or am I completely misunderstanding your post?
No, Michael, I said "testing limits of the suspension". That's what the guy in the video was doing. If you use that and tune limits of your suspension for most predictable behavior at the limit, our roads that could be put to shame by some stages of Paris-Dakkar will definitely throw a wrench to your plan.

As a matter of fact, our CA said million times here that he had zero problems with original suspension and tires in Florida. I've been there three times (South Florida), even drove the whole state N-S and back in one occasion, and roads there are not perfect. Not as the track in the video, anyway. So, they will dial some "user friendliness" for normal roads. It's just that what we have here cannot be further from "normal roads".

I think we should stop paying for our Air Force to sit idle while in Germany (and blast ED'd BMWs on Autobahn at the limiter speeds) and send them to drop about a dozen Hellfire missiles on each test track car makers have in Germany - that should get them closer to the state of our roads. Not to EXACT state of our roads, but definitely closer.
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Old 03-11-2013, 12:35 PM
Michael Schott Michael Schott is online now
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[QUOTE=Mark K;7435052]No, Michael, I said "testing limits of the suspension". That's what the guy in the video was doing. If you use that and tune limits of your suspension for most predictable behavior at the limit, our roads that could be put to shame by some stages of Paris-Dakkar will definitely throw a wrench to your plan.

As a matter of fact, our CA said million times here that he had zero problems with original suspension and tires in Florida. I've been there three times (South Florida), even drove the whole state N-S and back in one occasion, and roads there are not perfect. Not as the track in the video, anyway. So, they will dial some "user friendliness" for normal roads. It's just that what we have here cannot be further from "normal roads".

I think we should stop paying for our Air Force to sit idle while in Germany (and blast ED'd BMWs on Autobahn at the limiter speeds) and send them to drop about a dozen Hellfire missiles on each test track car makers have in Germany - that should get them closer to the state of our roads. Not to EXACT state of our roads, but definitely closer.[/QUOTE

Let me rephrase. My guess is they are testing the handling limits of the suspension in this video. They also test the rough road limits on a suitable track. Suspensions are always going to be a compromise unless they are adjustable and on a non-adjustable car that has sporting pretensions the occasional rough ride may be expected. And in a worse case scenario like a sport suspended E90 in NYC, it may be terrible. Personally my 2008 E90 non-sport had some minor issues on the poor streets we have in Michigan (not as 3rd world as NYC) and my 2011 E90 non-sport does better as BMW apparently changed suppliers for the shock absorbers. However neither were unacceptable to me.
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Old 03-11-2013, 01:11 PM
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The term "pothole explosions" always reminds me of what happened to my GI tract after I spent a few weeks traveling through Malaysia and wasn't very careful about what I was eating.

And, just like the "explosions" discussed on this board, the noises were loud enough to be disconcerting.
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Old 03-11-2013, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout View Post
The term "pothole explosions" always reminds me of what happened to my GI tract after I spent a few weeks traveling through Malaysia and wasn't very careful about what I was eating.

And, just like the "explosions" discussed on this board, the noises were loud enough to be disconcerting.
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Old 03-11-2013, 02:43 PM
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[QUOTE=Michael Schott;7435335]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark K View Post
No, Michael, I said "testing limits of the suspension". That's what the guy in the video was doing. If you use that and tune limits of your suspension for most predictable behavior at the limit, our roads that could be put to shame by some stages of Paris-Dakkar will definitely throw a wrench to your plan.

As a matter of fact, our CA said million times here that he had zero problems with original suspension and tires in Florida. I've been there three times (South Florida), even drove the whole state N-S and back in one occasion, and roads there are not perfect. Not as the track in the video, anyway. So, they will dial some "user friendliness" for normal roads. It's just that what we have here cannot be further from "normal roads".

I think we should stop paying for our Air Force to sit idle while in Germany (and blast ED'd BMWs on Autobahn at the limiter speeds) and send them to drop about a dozen Hellfire missiles on each test track car makers have in Germany - that should get them closer to the state of our roads. Not to EXACT state of our roads, but definitely closer.[/QUOTE

Let me rephrase. My guess is they are testing the handling limits of the suspension in this video. They also test the rough road limits on a suitable track. Suspensions are always going to be a compromise unless they are adjustable and on a non-adjustable car that has sporting pretensions the occasional rough ride may be expected. And in a worse case scenario like a sport suspended E90 in NYC, it may be terrible. Personally my 2008 E90 non-sport had some minor issues on the poor streets we have in Michigan (not as 3rd world as NYC) and my 2011 E90 non-sport does better as BMW apparently changed suppliers for the shock absorbers. However neither were unacceptable to me.


Anecdote time: pull up a chair, folks.


My very first experience with Manhattan roads was in my 335i (sport suspension) and...it wasn't TOO bad, but on my way out of the island that first day, I came up to the Verrazano Bridge and noticed that my (left) lane was blocked by some orange cones on the bridge proper. Slowly moved over to the right, and as I came closer and closer to the cones I noticed that there was a pothole there.
Got even closer--hey, that's a BIG pothole!
Got up next to it, looked into it....and saw the East River below.

Yeah, a "pothole" that you could drive a small car into...and fall into the East River.
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Old 03-11-2013, 03:02 PM
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Pothole explosions..........what's that?

Sounds like some states need to do a better job of road maintenance.
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Old 03-11-2013, 03:24 PM
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As mentioned by others, that test track is just one of the many surfaces modern car companies use to develop the suspensions of their cars.

Here's a link to an article (coincidentally showing a Ford Focus hitting a nasty pot hole) called "Greuling Ford Test Track Simulates Real World Conditions".

http://www.autotrader.com/research/a...conditions.jsp

"The tracks are built with every conceivable road hazard in mind, from cobblestones to potholes. They even simulate rough roads often found in emerging markets – and the potential for such roads to get rougher in inclement weather. In many cases, the tracks provide the worst roads anywhere."

I live in central Indiana, no Mecca of smooth pavement. It seems that all summer there is construction and all winter the roads deteriorate again.

While I generally drive around potholes when possible, I find the suspension in my 2006 E90 325i (non sport) to be an excellent compromise of handling and comfort. It's no pillowy 1976 Buck Riviera land yacht but it isn't meant to be an isolation chamber.

I think some people buy BMW's for the status, luxury features and build quality and don't realize that the brand was established on the idea of being a "driver's" car and that means suspension tuning tilted towards the firm and aggressive side sometimes at the expense of ride comfort.

***PLEASE NOTE*** I'm not saying that the OP is necessarily one of these people!***

Mercedes makes plenty of cushy sleds to pamper the butts of these status conscious "candy asses".
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Old 03-11-2013, 03:49 PM
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I'd like to thank the academy, my producers, the crew, and all the little people behind my post.
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Old 03-11-2013, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by BashedBarrique View Post

I think some people buy BMW's for the status, luxury features and build quality and don't realize that the brand was established on the idea of being a "driver's" car and that means suspension tuning tilted towards the firm and aggressive side sometimes at the expense of ride comfort.
If this was true I believe they wouldn't be using Run Flat Tires. Why does only the M get conventional non-run flats?
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Old 03-11-2013, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by BashedBarrique View Post
As mentioned by others, that test track is just one of the many surfaces modern car companies use to develop the suspensions of their cars.

Here's a link to an article (coincidentally showing a Ford Focus hitting a nasty pot hole) called "Greuling Ford Test Track Simulates Real World Conditions".

http://www.autotrader.com/research/a...conditions.jsp

"The tracks are built with every conceivable road hazard in mind, from cobblestones to potholes. They even simulate rough roads often found in emerging markets – and the potential for such roads to get rougher in inclement weather. In many cases, the tracks provide the worst roads anywhere."

I live in central Indiana, no Mecca of smooth pavement. It seems that all summer there is construction and all winter the roads deteriorate again.

While I generally drive around potholes when possible, I find the suspension in my 2006 E90 325i (non sport) to be an excellent compromise of handling and comfort. It's no pillowy 1976 Buck Riviera land yacht but it isn't meant to be an isolation chamber.

I think some people buy BMW's for the status, luxury features and build quality and don't realize that the brand was established on the idea of being a "driver's" car and that means suspension tuning tilted towards the firm and aggressive side sometimes at the expense of ride comfort.

***PLEASE NOTE*** I'm not saying that the OP is necessarily one of these people!***

Mercedes makes plenty of cushy sleds to pamper the butts of these status conscious "candy asses".
The idea that a car has to have a harsh rock hard suspension in order to handle well is quite simply misguided. The issue I had with the E9x sport suspension is that BMW was supposedly building a luxury sport sedan and the suspension was inadequate by both the sports and luxury criteria. It was far too harsh for comfort and lacked enough compliance to handle properly on anything other than pristine surfaces. To make matters worse the car was prone to break when it hit a pot hole, construction plate, or other obstacle. The tires would bubble, the sidewalls would tear, the rims would bend and the wheels would be thrown out of alignment.

In stock form my 335i would bounce all over the place on bumpy roads and the rear end would start to break loose. This is not a characteristic of what I would consider a good handling car. It is the function of the suspension to keep the contact patches on the road (that is why they are called "contact patches").

I discussed this with representatives of BMW North America and they agreed that there was an issue. Fortunately I had access to a number of people who were very experienced with setting up suspensions and I discussed my concerns with them. When drivers who were SCCA national champions and competed in Formula 1 tell me that they find the E9x sport suspension to be poorly sorted out and not compliant enough I am going to take their opinions very seriously and not dismiss them as "candy ass status seekers". I was referred to an article written by noted BMW suspension expert Kevin Bird who states in the article below that his 335i was "constantly skipping across bumps and losing traction everywhere". I had the same experience and was determined to fix it because there was so much about the way the car drove that I like.

I did not spring for the LSD but I did find that the combination of non RFT tires and Koni FSD shocks solved the issue of "Pothole Explosions" and I would up with a car that had a firm (but not harsh) ride, very good handling, minimal body lean and was able to remain settled on poor road surfaces.





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Old 03-11-2013, 05:00 PM
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T I was referred to an article written by noted BMW suspension expert Kevin Bird who states in the article below that his 335i was "constantly skipping across bumps and losing traction everywhere".
Great article. Vindicates my sanity as his reaction was pretty in like with mine uneducated reaction having recently getting my first BMW. Luckily I leased for two years for this very reason.. to test the car to see what the experience is. I like how he's only put on 12000 miles over 3 years. I totally get that since I feel the same.. the car just isn't pleasant enough on our "B roads" as the british call them but will take it out for a long drive for fun. In the month I've had it I've only put on 130 miles.

If I hadn't leased I would totally be changing the tires and suspension. I need to test drive a M3
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Old 03-11-2013, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark K View Post
I didn't place this in General Automotive, because of what I said in the title of the thread. I was SHOCKED to watch this video (it's about Ford Fiesta ST) and find out where they test suspension limits. And this is Ford's test track, I would like to see BMW's test track.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=H-KempOrImw

Boy-o-boy, am I glad I saw that video! What an explanation - would never have thought that would be the real source of pothole explosions.

Do you have more technically oriented material?

Have you seen the Nürburgring?

.

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Old 03-11-2013, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
In stock form my 335i would bounce all over the place on bumpy roads and the rear end would start to break loose. This is not a characteristic of what I would consider a good handling car. It is the function of the suspension to keep the contact patches on the road (that is why they are called "contact patches").

Yessir - E9x 328i/335i/335is suspensions suck, loudly.

Divergence from M div widened with the F30 and I expect that to continue. Gotta wonder what the plan is, I really do - BMW divvies up their base, but what a way to do it! There is a school of psychology that uses anger as a tool to achieve goals and reveal truths - cops routinely use belligerence to determine what a subject is really concerned about or not - what has an emotional connection, and to condition a subject for future compliance.

By 'dumbing down' the E9x, BMW has certainly created a conflict of expectation vs. reality. Some go my route, fixing the issue at their own expense, and that is rare. Most just take it, and many experience cognitive dissonance.

Do we have a psychologist or psychiatrist in the audience?
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Old 03-11-2013, 05:22 PM
BashedBarrique BashedBarrique is offline
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The idea that a car has to have a harsh rock hard suspension in order to handle well is quite simply misguided.
I don't believe I said "rock hard", but it is a simple fact that unless a car has an "active" suspension system it is going to be a compromise of handling ability and luxury ride.

I am new to the BMW fold and my direct experience is only in my 2006 325i with the non-sport suspension, but I am a long time subscriber to Car and Driver, Automobile, Road and Track and AutoWeek so I have their opinions to draw on even if I only have one 325i to critique directly.

I don't recall reading that the E90, E92 and E93's exhibit poor suspension design. Quite the opposite. All of the above publications had almost universal praise for the suspensions of these cars. Usually singling them out for awards or wins in comparison tests.

My 325i has a new set of BF Goodrich Touring TA's, hardly a premium tire, but it corners very well and provides a decent ride (while giving a pretty good WHAP! over broken pavement or expansion joints, but that could just be a characteristic of the tire).


Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
The issue I had with the E9x sport suspension is that BMW was supposedly building a luxury sport sedan and the suspension was inadequate by both the sports and luxury criteria. It was far too harsh for comfort and lacked enough compliance to handle properly on anything other than pristine surfaces. To make matters worse the car was prone to break when it hit a pot hole, construction plate, or other obstacle. The tires would bubble, the sidewalls would tear, the rims would bend and the wheels would be thrown out of alignment.

In stock form my 335i would bounce all over the place on bumpy roads and the rear end would start to break loose. This is not a characteristic of what I would consider a good handling car. It is the function of the suspension to keep the contact patches on the road (that is why they are called "contact patches").
Well, as I said, the major auto publications didn't share your low opinion of the ride and handling of the 335i (as I recall anyway). It could be that the 335i suspension was not ideally tuned for anything but smooth roads but I would be very surprised if...

1) the BMW engineers that are renowned for their suspension prowess would make such a glaring error.

and...

2) The motoring press would not have mentioned it in the reviews of the car.

But I have been and no doubt will continue to be surprised by things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
I discussed this with representatives of BMW North America and they agreed that there was an issue. Fortunately I had access to a number of people who were very experienced with setting up suspensions and I discussed my concerns with them. When drivers who were SCCA national champions and competed in Formula 1 tell me that they find the E9x sport suspension to be poorly sorted out and not compliant enough I am going to take their opinions very seriously and not dismiss them as "candy ass status seekers". I was referred to an article written by noted BMW suspension expert Kevin Bird who states in the article below that his 335i was "constantly skipping across bumps and losing traction everywhere". I had the same experience and was determined to fix it because there was so much about the way the car drove that I like.
Well, OK. Suspension set up is, as I said earlier, a compromise and you (and the gentleman that wrote the article) may prefer more suspension "compliance" but this is going to come at the expense of some other parameter that the original set up maximized (perhaps body roll or dive and squat) or it could be that the Koni's you purchased and the tires you chose minimized these trade offs.

Either way there were trade offs.

I'm glad you found a set up that made the car handle and ride as you prefer. I don't plan on doing any auto crossing or track days with my 325i so I'm pretty well pleased with what I consider a fantastic suspension set up for everyday commuting and the occasional spirited romp on back roads.


I would like to get a set of Bilsteins or Konis and maybe upgrade to a set of Michelin Pilot Sport PS2's (and a set of Blizzak's for the winter) and really see what the old girl can do!

Last edited by BashedBarrique; 03-11-2013 at 05:43 PM. Reason: Duplicate word.
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Old 03-11-2013, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by CALWATERBOY View Post
Yessir - E9x 328i/335i/335is suspensions suck, loudly.

Divergence from M div widened with the F30 and I expect that to continue. Gotta wonder what the plan is, I really do - BMW divvies up their base, but what a way to do it! There is a school of psychology that uses anger as a tool to achieve goals and reveal truths - cops routinely use belligerence to determine what a subject is really concerned about or not - what has an emotional connection, and to condition a subject for future compliance.

By 'dumbing down' the E9x, BMW has certainly created a conflict of expectation vs. reality. Some go my route, fixing the issue at their own expense, and that is rare. Most just take it, and many experience cognitive dissonance.

Do we have a psychologist or psychiatrist in the audience?
A very cost effective solution is to drink a glass or two of BMW Kool Aid and convince yourself that you are a "serious" driver with a barely street legal race car.

CA
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Old 03-11-2013, 05:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CALWATERBOY View Post
Yessir - E9x 328i/335i/335is suspensions suck, loudly.

Divergence from M div widened with the F30 and I expect that to continue. Gotta wonder what the plan is, I really do - BMW divvies up their base, but what a way to do it! There is a school of psychology that uses anger as a tool to achieve goals and reveal truths - cops routinely use belligerence to determine what a subject is really concerned about or not - what has an emotional connection, and to condition a subject for future compliance.

By 'dumbing down' the E9x, BMW has certainly created a conflict of expectation vs. reality. Some go my route, fixing the issue at their own expense, and that is rare. Most just take it, and many experience cognitive dissonance.

Do we have a psychologist or psychiatrist in the audience?
I don't agree that the suspensions "suck." I think there are issues in some iterations of the E9x suspension - but not others. I've had zero problems (no pothole explosions or anything of that nature) in my E91 base suspension.

The big problem, to me, is that the new generation of BMW either handle superbly or offer a decent ride - but don't do both. The E46 and earlier just seemed to offer more of an ideal ride/handling compromise.

And, I do think the F30 has moved more in that direction, although there is a bias toward ride comfort (arguably).
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  #21  
Old 03-11-2013, 06:02 PM
BashedBarrique BashedBarrique is offline
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Mein Auto: 2006 325i
Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
A very cost effective solution is to drink a glass or two of BMW Kool Aid and convince yourself that you are a "serious" driver with a barely street legal race car.

CA
No Kool-Aid drinker here. Drive an E90 and then drive an Acura TSX, an Audi A4,
a Volvo S60 etc.

Here is just one such comparo.

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...-c70-t5-page-2

Guess who won?


I did my own two month comparo and I chose the BMW hands down!

This wasn't the emotional decision of a BMW "fan boy". I have never owned a BMW in my thirty plus years or driving.

The Bimmer was just the best handling and driving car of the bunch.

Is an "M" car that much better? For 20 G's more...

... for Christ's sake it better be!
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  #22  
Old 03-11-2013, 06:14 PM
BashedBarrique BashedBarrique is offline
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Oh, and for what it's worth, I drove several E36's and E46's. They handled equally as well (I wouldn't say better although they did provide better steering "feel") but the ride was "crashy" and they were MUCH slower than the E90 (not to mention smaller, I'm 6'4" 220lbs).

Although, to be fair the E36's were mostly pretty "tired".
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  #23  
Old 03-11-2013, 06:15 PM
Mark K's Avatar
Mark K Mark K is online now
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Mein Auto: 2011 E92 335i MT
Quote:
Originally Posted by CALWATERBOY View Post
Boy-o-boy, am I glad I saw that video! What an explanation - would never have thought that would be the real source of pothole explosions.

Do you have more technically oriented material?

Have you seen the Nürburgring?
Cal, good sarcasm and all (appreciated), but do you think there would be pothole explosions (obviously not - no potholes) or ANY other problem with BMW suspension on the road in the video?

I fully believe that Germans consider Nuerburgring a horrible road and, as such, perfect for testing vehicles. Too bad it is a pristine high-speed road when compared with most of the roads we have here in U.S.

So, the question should be not what is a good SUSPENSION followed by my-driver-is-better-then-yours-so-he-knows-better quotes, but what is a good ROAD. And why we don't have them while the rest of the First World does? Should we all be proper patriots and just purchase a nice pickup truck that will have zero problems with the roads as they are and leave the roads alone? Or actually DO something about it? How about we talk about that and place the blame where it needs to be placed (hint: it is not BMW)?
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2011 E92 335i 6MT ZSP ZCW (ED May 17th 2010)

2013 118d BMWNA Special Edition. Black on black cloth (yay!), 5 door hatchback, 140hp diesel. Special edition items: factory debadge| "VW", "Golf" and "TDI" badges factory applied | MT | Standard go flat tires | Spare tire (yay!) | No moonroof (yay!) .

Last edited by Mark K; 03-11-2013 at 06:19 PM.
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  #24  
Old 03-11-2013, 06:19 PM
BashedBarrique BashedBarrique is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark K View Post
Should we all be proper patriots and purchase a nice pickup truck that will have zero problems with the roads as they are and leave the roads alone?
Hey, my dern F-150 has numb steering, and the solid rear axle hops like the Easter Bunny on crack on anything but buttery smooth roads.

But it will haul three cords of fire wood in the bed while pulling my MR2 to the track!
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  #25  
Old 03-11-2013, 06:29 PM
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CALWATERBOY CALWATERBOY is offline
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Mein Auto: 2009 E93 N54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout View Post
I don't agree that the suspensions "suck." I think there are issues in some iterations of the E9x suspension - but not others. I've had zero problems (no pothole explosions or anything of that nature) in my E91 base suspension.

The big problem, to me, is that the new generation of BMW either handle superbly or offer a decent ride - but don't do both. The E46 and earlier just seemed to offer more of an ideal ride/handling compromise.

And, I do think the F30 has moved more in that direction, although there is a bias toward ride comfort (arguably).
OK here's the thing: After changes, mine does do both. Though not a Porsche, which can be a magic carpet at speed but firm down low, it is more comfortable than stock and handles grossly better.

I can say the core's capable, but the decision was made to exploit that only in M div. I can say the stock suspension does well on smooth roads, and say it does poorly on un-smooth surfaces.

I believe most will agree: E9x was released some years before RFT's matured enough for un-smooth roads.

Also, if you've seen the curve for stock springs/shocks, you'll see a problem toward mid-range of travel and up.

It was good enough to impress on a test drive. But I say most would be asking questions after driving the same ride as M. I sure did!

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Last edited by CALWATERBOY; 03-11-2013 at 06:35 PM.
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