Welcome to Bimmerfest -- The #1 Online Community for BMW related information! Please enjoy the discussion forums below and share your experiences with the 200,000 current, new and past BMW owners. The forums are broken out by car model and into other special interest sections such as BMW European Delivery and a special forum to voice your questions to the many BMW dealers on the site to assist our members!

Please follow the links below to help get you started!

Go Back   Bimmerfest - BMW Forums > BMW Model Discussions > 7 Series / 8 Series > 7 Series - E65 / E66 (2002 - 2008)

7 Series - E65 / E66 (2002 - 2008)
Discussion pertaining to the flagship BMW here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #51  
Old 07-28-2013, 07:27 PM
mws mws is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: San Martin, california
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 574
Mein Auto: 760Li, F250 V10, Ex 7.3L
Quote:
Originally Posted by V12seven View Post
I realize that the plastic cap limits the membranes movement, for this reason I hope that a coat of sealant compressed between the cap/ spring and diaphragm seat will effect a functional repair.

Mws, unrelated to pumps, I replaced my plugs with Bosch 4 prong thinking that's what was installed. All coils replaced with factory Bosch. Are the NGK laser platinum a better plug? Like I mentioned, I'm still getting misc. misfires, I'm wondering if the plugs could cause this. My car is 2003 and has 87,000 miles.
I used the Bosch 4-prong myself. In fact the exact part number they have on realoem.com is no longer available through regular channels. I went with a vendor on Amazon that still had the old Bosch number. My engine purrs smooth as a kitten. Maybe order a Torx Plus bit set (also a new, strange 5-point design) from Amazon and remove your mafs from their tubes and use some Maf cleaner (at all parts stores these days).
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 07-28-2013, 07:30 PM
mws mws is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: San Martin, california
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 574
Mein Auto: 760Li, F250 V10, Ex 7.3L
Quote:
Originally Posted by V12seven View Post
Well I just got done with my pump check, I didn't see you're reply but had already disconnected that yesterday and there was a little fuel there. Today I disconnected both hoses from the pump tops, plugged the hoses and connected clear tubing to pumps. On starting the engine the left bank pump quickly started filling the tube with 2 to 3cc a minute, right bank was ok. I fashioned a crude five point out of a 5mm hex key socket, it worked and was easy to use with an extension. There was some residual pressure left in system on removal of the cap and I could observe a small jet of fuel from one area at the edge of the diaphragm. The leaking pump has yellow writing on the cap as well as on most components relating to this pump, car was still under warranty when I purchased it but things are not perfect under the hood. My diaphragm looks a little messy, almost like its had sealant spread around the edge, could it be........? Could that work, short term? Not fully understanding what pressure is under the diaphragm makes me wonder, can that membrane really withstand 1700 psi or the 87 psi from the tank? I may try some petroleum resistant sealant, nothing to lose.
I've read these or forums for years, they are a great help, thanks for your input.
NP, glad we could all help. Let us know if the sealant works.

Very interesting approach to your diagnosis. You have successfully and comprehensively, I might add, diagnosed your HPFP as beginning to fail, could you please add your comments to this thread? It's to help future generations know what to expect.

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...746&highlight=
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 07-28-2013, 09:26 PM
mws mws is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: San Martin, california
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 574
Mein Auto: 760Li, F250 V10, Ex 7.3L
V12seven, do you have DIS? if you do, look at the two DMEs and compare MAF output at idle. They should be very VERY close to matching. If they are not, the idle could be bumpy.
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 07-28-2013, 10:08 PM
V12seven V12seven is offline
Registered User
Location: Hermosa Beach CA
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 9
Mein Auto: BMW 760Li
Quote:
Originally Posted by V12seven View Post
I realize that the plastic cap limits the membranes movement, for this reason I hope that a coat of sealant compressed between the cap/ spring and diaphragm seat will effect a functional repair.

Mws, unrelated to pumps, I replaced my plugs with Bosch 4 prong thinking that's what was installed. All coils replaced with factory Bosch. Are the NGK laser platinum a better plug? Like I mentioned, I'm still getting misc. misfires, I'm wondering if the plugs could cause this. My car is 2003 and has 87,000 miles.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mws View Post
V12seven, do you have DIS? if you do, look at the two DMEs and compare MAF output at idle. They should be very VERY close to matching. If they are not, the idle could be bumpy.
No DIS, I have carsoft 9.0 and OBDII software on laptop. Which DIS do you recommend? I'm wondering if I've seen these measurements in carsoft live mode, am I right? Looks like DIS has more options.
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 07-29-2013, 06:46 AM
new760Liowner new760Liowner is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Nor Cal
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 112
Mein Auto: E66 760, E38 750, E34 540
Quote:
Originally Posted by V12seven View Post
Well I just got done with my pump check, I didn't see you're reply but had already disconnected that yesterday and there was a little fuel there. Today I disconnected both hoses from the pump tops, plugged the hoses and connected clear tubing to pumps. On starting the engine the left bank pump quickly started filling the tube with 2 to 3cc a minute, right bank was ok. I fashioned a crude five point out of a 5mm hex key socket, it worked and was easy to use with an extension. There was some residual pressure left in system on removal of the cap and I could observe a small jet of fuel from one area at the edge of the diaphragm. The leaking pump has yellow writing on the cap as well as on most components relating to this pump, car was still under warranty when I purchased it but things are not perfect under the hood. My diaphragm looks a little messy, almost like its had sealant spread around the edge, could it be........? Could that work, short term? Not fully understanding what pressure is under the diaphragm makes me wonder, can that membrane really withstand 1700 psi or the 87 psi from the tank? I may try some petroleum resistant sealant, nothing to lose.
I've read these or forums for years, they are a great help, thanks for your input.
Just saw the picture of your diaphragm, definitely looks like the source of failure on these
pumps. Any idea on a replacement part? From the research I have done, looks like a sanitary seal diaphragm they use in the process industry designed to seal the working fluid (in this case gasoline) from the opposing side but to allow pressure to be transferred through the membrane. The HPFP I disassembled from an Audi Q7 has a metal layered diaphragm to accomplish the same function but the diaphragm housing was capped (versus ours which is connected to the vent system) probably owing to the metal diaphragm not allowing fuel vapors to cross the seal.

Anyways, hopefully your sealant method fixes the leak. Please keep us posted!
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 08-04-2013, 06:46 PM
V12seven V12seven is offline
Registered User
Location: Hermosa Beach CA
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 9
Mein Auto: BMW 760Li
HPFP diaphragm removed

After using the nitrile rubber adhesive to hopefully seal the leak in the diaphragm, I noticed that it wasn't bonding as well as I thought it would, (too gummy)' so I didn't expect much from the repair. I'm now not sure that the diaphragm is in the nitrile family, maybe it's a hybrid of some kind. I was hoping to find some thing that would bond permanently and still be elastic and be impervious to gas. After the failure, I removed the pump again and decided to remove the diaphragm, it's OUT! Or seemingly they are out, I have 2, I don't think they are supposed to be together, (like they became delaminated). I have suspicions about my car, I purchased under warranty 5 years ago but this pump and all lines associated with it are marked with yellow permanent marker. Did BMW repair this pump by laying a good diaphragm on top of the old one? If so, that means that there are diaphragms available. Can anyone confirm that there is supposed to be 2 diaphragms in the pump, one on top of the other?

I can't figure out how to upload more than 1 picture at a time, I pick 3 and it gives me the last one I picked, any help?
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	image.jpg
Views:	122
Size:	167.1 KB
ID:	389803  
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 08-05-2013, 06:51 AM
new760Liowner new760Liowner is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Nor Cal
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 112
Mein Auto: E66 760, E38 750, E34 540
Good work removing diaphragm!

How did you remove the solid annulus piece pressing the diaphragm against the housing?
Was it a screw thread and if so, what tool did you use to remove?

I have an extra pump which appears to have a good diaphragm. I could check later tonight whether its one piece or some kind of laminated part.

Any idea on what material the diaphragm is made of?
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 08-05-2013, 08:17 PM
V12seven V12seven is offline
Registered User
Location: Hermosa Beach CA
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 9
Mein Auto: BMW 760Li
You can remove the retaining ring with a blind end puller. The diaphragm is probably made with some kind of nitrile rubber blend.
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old 09-27-2013, 10:44 PM
raymound raymound is online now
Registered User
Location: abu dhabi
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 22
Mein Auto: 2004 760Li
Hey Guys check this out they rebuild n73 HPFP

http://www.invasionautoproducts.com/20bmwhiprpu0.html
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 09-28-2013, 08:12 AM
new760Liowner new760Liowner is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Nor Cal
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 112
Mein Auto: E66 760, E38 750, E34 540
Wonder what's included in the rebuild?
Reply With Quote
  #61  
Old 09-28-2013, 10:40 AM
mws mws is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: San Martin, california
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 574
Mein Auto: 760Li, F250 V10, Ex 7.3L
Good find, Raymound, unfortunately, I just called the guy up (he answered the phone on a Saturday) and he said he cannot souce a diaphragm that will last more than a few thousand miles. He cannot get the part from Bosch, which is what other rebuilders I have talked to have said. So he has tried aftermarket solutions and they fail very quickly

He wanred me that if I sent him two cores right now, he could not rebuild them since he has no diaphragm part he trusts to work. I plan to email him to discuss the fact he should probably drop the item from his website until he has a solution. I also want him to stay in touch in case he does find a solution for it.
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 09-29-2013, 09:19 AM
new760Liowner new760Liowner is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Nor Cal
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 112
Mein Auto: E66 760, E38 750, E34 540
Bosch price control

The diaphragm looks like it has a fiber mesh layered into the base elastomer; just not
sure what the base material is. Since Bosch won't sell the diaphragm separately, this
sounds like we need to end the monopoly on this part and find out what it is and source
a replacement. I'm surprised a custom seal manufacturer can't identify it.

I've been looking into the industrial and refinery sources since they typically deal with
high pressure applications.

I don't know if any of you have noticed, all the modern high pressure fuel pumps usually employ a sealed fuel pressure regulator. Wonder if it would be possible to replace the nipple
leading to the vent system and plug it up? The internal spring would still dissipate the excess pressure. Maybe replace the stock diaphragm with a sandwich metal design diaphragm other manufacturers use; their systems are plugged up.
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 09-29-2013, 09:45 AM
mws mws is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: San Martin, california
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 574
Mein Auto: 760Li, F250 V10, Ex 7.3L
I think the biggest enemy we have in this situation is apathy: there simply are not enough of these pumps on the road to make ramping up any part worth anyone's while. Even getting someone to actually rebuild them is a small miracle, although Invasion seems motivated enough. I need to email him. I bet $10 he actually owns a 760. That's probably his motivation.

Plugging it up might work for a short term problem, but at 135K miles, mine were actually giving "wrong pressure on the rail" codes.
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 09-29-2013, 10:13 AM
raymound raymound is online now
Registered User
Location: abu dhabi
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 22
Mein Auto: 2004 760Li
Re: Rebuilding HPFP

Im thinking about what solution we can make about the diaphram since bosch is is not selling any kits for thir pump maybe we could built 1 to stop their monopoly andbon the long turn they will sell a rebuild kit. I bet its a vucanized rubber.ill see if I could get the materials needed to do this. And if not successful maybe we could alter it with a piston type like most hp pumps ang a rubber O ring.

Sent from my GT-I9500 using BimmerApp mobile app
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 09-29-2013, 09:53 PM
new760Liowner new760Liowner is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Nor Cal
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 112
Mein Auto: E66 760, E38 750, E34 540
Cross-section of a sanitary seal, notice any similarities?

I think the outer diameter of the 760 diaphragm (the raised rubber part) is similar to the gasket in the attached diagram which seals the gasoline in the chamber from the vent-side of the diaphragm.

In the 760 version, they use an elastomer for the central portion whereas in other manufacturers they use stainless steel.

One option would be to replace the 760 diaphragm with a rubber o-ring on the base with a thin circular piece of stainless steel (green layer in diagram), covering the o-ring and pressed in place by the stock annular section; at least until the original diaphragm composition is revealed.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Seal_(diaphragm).png
Views:	105
Size:	38.6 KB
ID:	399561  
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 09-30-2013, 07:58 AM
new760Liowner new760Liowner is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Nor Cal
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 112
Mein Auto: E66 760, E38 750, E34 540
Here is a pdf on fabric-reinforced diaphragms, very similar to what we have
Attached Files
File Type: pdf FabricReinforcementinDiaphragms_3502.pdf (1.10 MB, 52 views)
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 09-30-2013, 10:11 AM
new760Liowner new760Liowner is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Nor Cal
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 112
Mein Auto: E66 760, E38 750, E34 540
Another design oriented manual from Simrit

Based on what I've read so far, the diaphragm is likely composed of

Elastomer: Fluorocarbon (excellent resistance to gasoline, fuel oils)
Fabric: Nomex or Kevlar
Design: Convoluted with Flat Flange

Not sure if its a one-sided or two-sided, two-sided used for short to medium
strokes, one sided can be used for long as well as short/medium strokes.

I would probably err on the side of caution and stick with a one-sided application.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Diaphragm_Engineering_and_Design_Manual.pdf (3.94 MB, 36 views)
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 09-30-2013, 10:38 AM
mws mws is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: San Martin, california
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 574
Mein Auto: 760Li, F250 V10, Ex 7.3L
Two layers

Quote:
Originally Posted by V12seven View Post
After using the nitrile rubber adhesive to hopefully seal the leak in the diaphragm, I noticed that it wasn't bonding as well as I thought it would, (too gummy)' so I didn't expect much from the repair. I'm now not sure that the diaphragm is in the nitrile family, maybe it's a hybrid of some kind. I was hoping to find some thing that would bond permanently and still be elastic and be impervious to gas. After the failure, I removed the pump again and decided to remove the diaphragm, it's OUT! Or seemingly they are out, I have 2, I don't think they are supposed to be together, (like they became delaminated). I have suspicions about my car, I purchased under warranty 5 years ago but this pump and all lines associated with it are marked with yellow permanent marker. Did BMW repair this pump by laying a good diaphragm on top of the old one? If so, that means that there are diaphragms available. Can anyone confirm that there is supposed to be 2 diaphragms in the pump, one on top of the other?

I can't figure out how to upload more than 1 picture at a time, I pick 3 and it gives me the last one I picked, any help?
I've talked with someone else to fully disassembled the pump and found the diaphragm to be two-layer as well.
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 10-16-2013, 09:54 AM
mws mws is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: San Martin, california
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 574
Mein Auto: 760Li, F250 V10, Ex 7.3L
for those of you who have analyzed this more than I have:

1] is the diaphragm absolutely necessary for the pump to operate?

2] is the tank vent system absolutely necessary for the pump to operate? or is it just something for smog/emissions? ie: if we plugged the vent nipple somehow, and the diaphragm was torn, would the pump operate normally?

if #1 is yes, then we need to look into a 3rd party solution. I have been talking to someone about this, and it might be time for me to send him one of my dead pumps for analysis.

If #2 is no, when we need to run some experiments on how to bypass the tank vent system safely.
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 01-09-2014, 11:25 AM
mws mws is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: San Martin, california
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 574
Mein Auto: 760Li, F250 V10, Ex 7.3L
HPFP document, please download

download this document now and save it.

start reading from page 87,

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=631053

So here's an update from my end. I had the premiere direct injection diesel fuel pump guy Giles at Performance Diesel Injection, inspect one of my pumps and dissect it. (yes, I know he does Diesel, but all cars are moving to direct injection and he's going to branch out. the technology is the same, largely)

He spent a bunch of time looking it over and from inspecting the other parts, is convinced if we could replace the diaphragm we would have a working pump that is in spec and not worn out, otherwise. Now, of course, we would need a diaphragm to test that.

He has been trying to get a response from Bosch, and finally did. They will not provide the diaphragm as a replacement part. Period. If anyone can get a better response from Bosch, please try, but he's got an in at Bosch, deals with them all the time, and they turned him down.

So I am going to direct my efforts to Raj at Biesan systems and see whether he thinks he can make a replacement diaphragm. Don't get too excited. I've heard there's only about 5500 of these cars ever made and there's really almost no market for the diaphragm. But I have talked with Raj and he's interested in looking into it.

PLEASE don't inundate Raj with calls and emails. I am going to send him at least one pump to support his effort. It will take time. We may have no answer until at least summer of 2014.

Meantime, I would avoid buying a used pump from anyone for any reason. I think age, as well as miles, has something to do with the failure of the diaphragm. I had 135K miles on mine, then they failed. Others have failed at only 80K miles, but all our cars were 2003-2004 cars. We don't hear much from the 2005 and later folks....yet.
Reply With Quote
  #71  
Old 01-09-2014, 03:17 PM
new760Liowner new760Liowner is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Nor Cal
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 112
Mein Auto: E66 760, E38 750, E34 540
Also notice that the newer N74 HPFP's use a sealed design. This smells like
a lot like a coverup with a fixed replacement part, why else would they refuse to sell diaphragm?


Sent from BimmerApp mobile app
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 01-09-2014, 04:02 PM
mws mws is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: San Martin, california
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 574
Mein Auto: 760Li, F250 V10, Ex 7.3L
not sure what you mean?

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts...47&hg=13&fg=15

the design is just utterly different and missing a hose, to boot. it's simpler.

I think the fact that only 5000-6000 N73 cars were ever sold (does anyone have good numbers on the sales?) Bosch does not feel the need to do anything about it, except sell us pumps. The service life on them is actually pretty good. 100K on average is not something I would complain about, so much as the $2500 list price.
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 01-10-2014, 06:24 AM
new760Liowner new760Liowner is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Nor Cal
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 112
Mein Auto: E66 760, E38 750, E34 540
It's a similar design to a lot of the other manufacturers but the same single piston inside a bore design. A spare HPFP's I got from another manufacturer which looks very similar to the N74 design, had a metal sandwich type diaphragm which is what I think they use in the sealed designs


Sent from BimmerApp mobile app
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old 04-09-2014, 11:45 AM
eddiethegreek eddiethegreek is offline
Registered User
Location: Plant City, Florida
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 6
Mein Auto: 2003 760li E66
Hi there, my HPFP for bank 2 is on it's way out too and is starting the leaking into the vent system. Can I cut the vent line from the pump plug entry to vent system, and add a long, (2 foot long?) piece of metal piping (brake line?), plugged off at other end to catch the fuel, but still have enough air in the line to allow for the pulsing of the diaphragm in pipe with minimal back pressure? This would allow the pump to run without choking system w/ fuel, and possibly help maintain rail pressure until the pumps ultimate failure. I'm thinking pointing the hose upwards so that the air is not sucked back into the pump. Maybe run it up the firewall somewhere. I think 2 feet of tubing would hold enough air to compress and decompress without causing major back pressure on the operation of the diaphragm. Possible connect this pipe, metal to metal with a piece of fuel line and two clamps. That should withstand the high pressure without blowing out, as may happen with using only a fuel line for this purpose. You guys seem to be on it with this pump and know more than I do. Do you think this might work. When pump is failing, I get a P3250 code for low pressure in bank 2 fuel rail. It should stop the P2402 code for high pressure in the vent system to to Raw fuel in lines. Or will I just burn up the pump quicker? Lemme know what you think. Thanks for your assistance.
Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old 05-27-2014, 08:31 PM
mws mws is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: San Martin, california
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 574
Mein Auto: 760Li, F250 V10, Ex 7.3L
FOUND a possible replacement Bosch diaphragm!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by V12seven View Post
You can remove the retaining ring with a blind end puller. The diaphragm is probably made with some kind of nitrile rubber blend.
V12Seven, I need pictures of what blind puller and attachment you used to get the ring off. Also, it has to be done without damaging anything. Were you able to accomplish that?

If you are still having trouble uploading several pictures, then feel free to post as many single replies as is needed. This is really important.

I bought, from England (they are not available in the US)

A 2002-era VW/Audi diesel direct injection pump, # 06D127026J that a rebuilder told me shares the same exact bosch diaphragm part number!!! They are cheap enough that if only the diaphragm were damaged on ours, then our pumps can be repaired for hundreds of dollars buy buying these new and removing the diaphragms!!!

Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Forum Navigation
Go Back   Bimmerfest - BMW Forums > BMW Model Discussions > 7 Series / 8 Series > 7 Series - E65 / E66 (2002 - 2008)
Today's Posts Search
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On



Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:59 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
© 2001-2011 performanceIX, Inc. All Rights Reserved .: guidelines .:. privacy .:. terms