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7 Series - E65 / E66 (2002 - 2008)
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  #101  
Old 05-30-2014, 11:56 PM
mws mws is offline
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Can I buy 2 of the diaphragms you produce?
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  #102  
Old 05-31-2014, 12:05 AM
nandro nandro is offline
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Perform repairs alone cost me considerable expenditure, so for themselves throughout the process .Can you send me a pump and I repair it.
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  #103  
Old 05-31-2014, 04:13 AM
irish745 irish745 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mws View Post
Irish, M8, you going to buy that pump? if not, I might like to.
I was gonna buy it buy it looks like sumeone got there before me .was it u lol.i hope it was as ur doing brill work

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  #104  
Old 05-31-2014, 09:58 AM
mws mws is offline
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Dang. Nope, not me
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  #105  
Old 05-31-2014, 01:53 PM
Andra V12 Andra V12 is offline
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@ nandro , can you just sell the parts to repair the pump diy please .
Sending and returning pumps will take weeks .

@ mws , maybe these guys can supply parts , apr do hpfp and fsi pumps ,
http://www.goapr.com/products/
http://www.goapr.com/products/hpfp_42fsi.html
http://www.goapr.com/products/hpfp_25tfsi.html

And there is hpfp upgrade http://hpfpupgrade.com/BrowseProduct.../Audi/2.0T+FSI
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  #106  
Old 05-31-2014, 04:21 PM
mws mws is offline
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Andra, this link shows the US-style pump, which seems to have no diaphragm at all.

http://www.goapr.com/products/hpfp_25tfsi.html

This is what I found from trying US VW parts suppliers. They had no idea what the part numbers were. But we could still contact them and ask if they can get Bosch to sell the diaphragm. Performance Diesel in Canada has a great relationship with Bosch and could not get them to budge on selling him a diaphragm.
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  #107  
Old 05-31-2014, 07:05 PM
nandro nandro is offline
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Andra V12: How do you know which part you're at the pump is broken?
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  #108  
Old 05-31-2014, 09:33 PM
mws mws is offline
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Nandro, if you read all the posts of this thread from the last year or so, you will see that all of us who have pulled our pumps apart have found that only the diaphragm is torn. We want a replacement diaphragm part.
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  #109  
Old 06-01-2014, 12:18 AM
new760Liowner new760Liowner is offline
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Great Video mws

Good job on the video mws, I will try to remove the silver annular ring on my extra pump.
Maybe I got lucky when I bought the extra pump awhile back?

Incidentally, I have been using the Stanadyne lubricity additive in each tank of gasoline for about a year and a half now with no problems; 90mls per 15 gallons. If the diaphragm in the Audi diesel pump held up well, and is the same material as the 760's, maybe the additive will ward off it drying out.
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  #110  
Old 06-01-2014, 08:13 AM
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I haven't read thru the whole thread but if it hasn't been suggested - the guys with Mercury marine optimax fuel pressure regulators (diaphragm) have a similar issue. This guy apparently rebuilds at considerable savings - you might give him a call.

http://www.thepelicanservices.com/Fu...il%20Page.html

Also, what are the dimensions of the diaphragm??

***
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Last edited by A B Able Truck; 06-01-2014 at 08:21 AM. Reason: info
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  #111  
Old 06-01-2014, 09:19 AM
Andra V12 Andra V12 is offline
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nandro , it would be more help if you say what parts you can supply . Full rebuild kit or just diaphragm .

mws ,the diy in this link shows the stainless steel damper, mentioned earlier by another member on this thread which is flexed by the wavy springy washer (sorry , forgot the actual technical name for it ) . http://www.audi-sport.net/vb/a3-s3-s...y)=#post893228
AB Able asked my next question , what is the bore / diaphragm dimension .

Edit , found more parts .http://www.autotech.com/product/fuel...bit-mkv-gti-2t
http://www.autotech.com/product/fuel...bit-mkv-gti-2t
http://www.autotech.com/category/fue...bit-mkv-gti-2t
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Last edited by Andra V12; 06-01-2014 at 09:30 AM.
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  #112  
Old 06-01-2014, 09:28 AM
nandro nandro is offline
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Andra V12 : I have the opportunity CNC machining. HPFP to repair what is needed.
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  #113  
Old 06-01-2014, 09:40 AM
Andra V12 Andra V12 is offline
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nandro , Eventually you will realise we only want the parts .
You will have more friends if you answer the questions properly . I have no intention of sending pumps to you . I have cnc available locally .
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  #114  
Old 06-01-2014, 09:47 AM
nandro nandro is offline
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I do not sell any parts, just correct.
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  #115  
Old 06-01-2014, 09:56 AM
new760Liowner new760Liowner is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A B Able Truck View Post
I haven't read thru the whole thread but if it hasn't been suggested - the guys with Mercury marine optimax fuel pressure regulators (diaphragm) have a similar issue. This guy apparently rebuilds at considerable savings - you might give him a call.

http://www.thepelicanservices.com/Fu...il%20Page.html

Also, what are the dimensions of the diaphragm??

***
Verified. 2-ply design, looks like a nomex fiber mesh impregnated Viton material. 1 5/16" OD, the bottom layer has a glue seal that mates the outermost 1/8" annular area to the bottom of the pump. Nothing particularly noteworthy about the diaphragm other than it has a fiber material base, certainly not enough to justify $2,000 a pump.

The top layer has a molded recessed area that starts about 1/8" in from the outside and protrudes about 3/32" down towards the second layer.

The silver colored annular retaining ring can be pryed up with a flat precision screwdriver as mws's video suggests. I soaked mine with some
Stanadyne diesel lubricity additive to loosen it up; worked great

Last edited by new760Liowner; 06-01-2014 at 12:13 PM.
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  #116  
Old 06-01-2014, 10:11 AM
Andra V12 Andra V12 is offline
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You mentioned Stanadyne . They make hpfp .http://stanadyne.com/view.php?id=139
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  #117  
Old 06-01-2014, 12:26 PM
mws mws is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nandro View Post
Andra V12 : I have the opportunity CNC machining. HPFP to repair what is needed.
Nandro, have you seen other parts fail? Or just the diaphragm?
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  #118  
Old 06-01-2014, 12:35 PM
mws mws is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by new760Liowner View Post
Verified. 2-ply design, looks like a nomex fiber mesh impregnated Viton material. 1 5/16" OD, the bottom layer has a glue seal that mates the outermost 1/8" annular area to the bottom of the pump. Nothing particularly noteworthy about the diaphragm other than it has a fiber material base, certainly not enough to justify $2,000 a pump.

The top layer has a molded recessed area that starts about 1/8" in from the outside and protrudes about 3/32" down towards the second layer.

The silver colored annular retaining ring can be pryed up with a flat precision screwdriver as mws's video suggests. I soaked mine with some
Stanadyne diesel lubricity additive to loosen it up; worked great

I measured 1.31" for the bore and the diaphragm.

So. Here's the thing, so far all of us have observed diaphragms falling part or with a crack in it. One of us is going to need to get some replacement diaphragms into two failing pumps and verify they otherwise work.

The symptom is, pressure warnings and gas leaking past the diaphragm and into the throttle bodies. The diaphragm is there as a pulsation damper. Not sure why it needs to vent vapor? Is it possible it's gas-permeable? Is the vent there to vent cavitated gas vapor? If it is, a steel replacement might not work.

When Giles from Performance Diesel inspected my pump he didn't mic it out, but did not see anything else that looked like it was worn at all. I am not sure what CNC machining would do for us, since, if you bored the orificies out, you'd need larger replacement parts to go into those larger holes. Where would those come from? At that point, pump replacement or getting the parts from a Audi pump would be the thing to try.
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  #119  
Old 06-01-2014, 12:40 PM
mws mws is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andra V12 View Post
nandro , it would be more help if you say what parts you can supply . Full rebuild kit or just diaphragm .

mws ,the diy in this link shows the stainless steel damper, mentioned earlier by another member on this thread which is flexed by the wavy springy washer (sorry , forgot the actual technical name for it ) . http://www.audi-sport.net/vb/a3-s3-s...y)=#post893228
AB Able asked my next question , what is the bore / diaphragm dimension .

Edit , found more parts .http://www.autotech.com/product/fuel...bit-mkv-gti-2t
http://www.autotech.com/product/fuel...bit-mkv-gti-2t
http://www.autotech.com/category/fue...bit-mkv-gti-2t
The steel diaphragm idea is interesting, but as I mention above, not sure if the diaphragm needs to be gas permeable or not. Can you check with them and see what size diaphragms they have?
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  #120  
Old 06-01-2014, 12:41 PM
mws mws is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A B Able Truck View Post
I haven't read thru the whole thread but if it hasn't been suggested - the guys with Mercury marine optimax fuel pressure regulators (diaphragm) have a similar issue. This guy apparently rebuilds at considerable savings - you might give him a call.

http://www.thepelicanservices.com/Fu...il%20Page.html

Also, what are the dimensions of the diaphragm??

***
AB great tip! Thanks for helping out the V12 folks. I'll try contacting these guys, they would need to also be able to re-laminate the two layers and fix cracks. Might be interesting to see if they can manufacture one from scratch.
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  #121  
Old 06-01-2014, 01:34 PM
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A B Able Truck A B Able Truck is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mws View Post
AB great tip! Thanks for helping out the V12 folks. I'll try contacting these guys, they would need to also be able to re-laminate the two layers and fix cracks. Might be interesting to see if they can manufacture one from scratch.
Not sure why you have 2 diaphragms on top of each other. If the diaphragm only dampens pressure pulses, can you cut to fit an accelerator pump diaphragm? This is a Holley fabric coated diaphragm - does the center plate matter?

Click image for larger version

Name:	image.jpg
Views:	59
Size:	10.1 KB
ID:	443446

They come in a verity of sizes.

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Last edited by A B Able Truck; 06-01-2014 at 01:48 PM.
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  #122  
Old 06-01-2014, 01:49 PM
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Harley
Click image for larger version

Name:	image.jpg
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ID:	443451
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  #123  
Old 06-01-2014, 03:39 PM
new760Liowner new760Liowner is offline
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Pressure limitation

Quote:
Originally Posted by A B Able Truck View Post
Not sure why you have 2 diaphragms on top of each other. If the diaphragm only dampens pressure pulses, can you cut to fit an accelerator pump diaphragm? This is a Holley fabric coated diaphragm - does the center plate matter?

Attachment 443446

They come in a verity of sizes.

***
From what I read, a single ply/layer diaphragm, made from the best combination of fluoroelastomer/Viton, can only withstand ~ half the 120 bar operating pressure. My guess
is they put two layers in to compensate. Most of the later HPFP designs seem to use a multilayered steel diaphragm instead of the Viton material (also notice how they don't
connect to the vent system, they are capped).

Last edited by new760Liowner; 06-01-2014 at 03:40 PM.
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  #124  
Old 06-01-2014, 04:00 PM
mws mws is offline
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You folks have all downloaded this file that explains the N73 engine and the fuel system, right?

http://mwsmotorsports.com/personal/760Li/BMW_N73.pdf

on 87 is a great diagram.

on page 90 it says of the diaphragm:

"Pressure attenuator
The excess fuel delivered by the high-pressure pump is returned through the fuel-quantity control valve into the pump feed area. The pulsations generated in the pump in the process are absorbed by the spring of the pressure attenuator (12).
The pressure attenuator is separated by a diaphragm (11) from the pump feed area."

So, does that mean the diaphragm actually does see 120 bar pressure, or is it only feed pressure?
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  #125  
Old 06-01-2014, 04:08 PM
mws mws is offline
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This activity on this thread is great. Also, I have a feeling we are all going to be in for a first or second round of HPFP failure soon, so this thread will likely get even more action.

I'd say we need answers to this:

1] are all the vendors we have identified unable to source the original diaphragm from Bosch? I need help from you all to look up possible HPFP modifiers or vendors, use the pictures and part numbers and ask them if they have a good enough relationship with Bosch that they can get that part.

2] is the diaphragm gas permeable? why does it vent? It would be great to know this.

3] can our European brothers and sisters please assist us in finding a good and inexpensive source for a brand new VW or Audi pump with this diaphragm ? I think I saw something for around $400 US each, but can't find it again.

4] if we cannot get any good responses for this, then we might want to approach Raj at Beisan Systems. I have already talked to him about this before, but since he's not a fuel pump expert, I decided to try Performance Diesel first. He got us the interchange parts, that's half the battle. But he's not confident he can make a good diaphragm, even though he has material he thinks is suitable.

Last edited by mws; 06-01-2014 at 04:10 PM.
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