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F30 / F31 / F32 / F33 (2012 - current)
The sixth generation 3 series, chassis code F30. 2013 model year 328i and 335i sedans now in production. Read the F30 frequently asked question thread for all your basic question and dive into all the details in the ultimate F30 information thread.

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  #51  
Old 03-17-2013, 08:15 AM
PeteRock PeteRock is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bret_T View Post
I don't know where you're getting your information, but non-refundable deposits are very normal in contracts. However, the specific laws governing car purchases certainly do vary from state to state and they may or may not vary from the norm. It's not likely that the contract written by a dealership will have something written in it that's illegal. Otherwise, a judge could easily invalidate the entire contract. That's certainly not something a dealership wants to have happen. If a consumer can just walk away from a deal at any point and get his money back, then there's no real point in putting down a deposit or even having a contract. If you owned a dealership, would you take the risk of special ordering a car with atypical options knowing that the consumer can just walk away at any point? I do think it's in the best long term interest of the dealership to do everything they can to satisfy their customer, but they've done nobody wrong at this point.
+1

Seriously onetrade, are you a lawyer?
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  #52  
Old 03-17-2013, 08:44 AM
vern vern is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteRock View Post
+1

Seriously onetrade, are you a lawyer?
Ever hear of "buyers remorse"?
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  #53  
Old 03-17-2013, 09:05 AM
onetrade onetrade is offline
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I am not a lawyer and I can obviously be wrong BUT...

I worked in the car industry for a while and my wife works at a credit card processing company. I am pretty sure that in NY and NJ dealerships cannot keep deposits under any circumstance, whether you write non-refundable or not. On the credit card processing end: for a dealership to win a chargeback they must provide proof that the customer walked away with a car and/or they have signs in plain site in various locations indicating that refunds are not refundable under any circumstance. This also cannot violate any laws. Just because you write and demand it doesn't mean it's allowed.

Again, not a lawyer, just personal experience.
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  #54  
Old 03-17-2013, 09:10 AM
terryn terryn is offline
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Originally Posted by 3ismagic# View Post
OP what weird constellation of of colors/options did you order that is supposed to make it so hard for them to sell the car?

Let me guess it was something other than black, white, silver or gray.
no - alpine white

328i xdrive in Alpine White
Sport Line
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  #55  
Old 03-17-2013, 09:12 AM
terryn terryn is offline
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Originally Posted by Wiggum View Post
BTW- Does it say anywhere that the deposit is non-refundable? I didn't get anything saying that it wasn't and my CA never mentioned it.
Yes, contract says deposit in non refundable. In addition is says they can take my trade in compensation too. I'd fight the seizure of the trade in very vigorously. They can claim their losses might be 500, but not 2000 total.
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  #56  
Old 03-17-2013, 09:15 AM
PeteRock PeteRock is offline
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Originally Posted by onetrade View Post
I am not a lawyer and I can obviously be wrong BUT...

I worked in the car industry for a while and my wife works at a credit card processing company. I am pretty sure that in NY and NJ dealerships cannot keep deposits under any circumstance, whether you write non-refundable or not. On the credit card processing end: for a dealership to win a chargeback they must provide proof that the customer walked away with a car and/or they have signs in plain site in various locations indicating that refunds are not refundable under any circumstance. This also cannot violate any laws. Just because you write and demand it doesn't mean it's allowed.

Again, not a lawyer, just personal experience.
This is what my contract says:

EFFECT OF CANCELLATION
16. If we cancel the Agreement pursuant to clause 10, or if you cancel the Agreement pursuant to clauses 6, 12 or 15, we will refund your deposit and, provided the cancellation was due to circumstances beyond our reasonable control, we shall have no further liability to you.
17. If we cancel the Agreement pursuant to clauses 13 or 14, we will endeavour to sell the Vehicle to another person. If it is not sold within a reasonable time, we will sell it at auction. Within 7 days of the date of sale, we will give you a statement showing the sales price and any additional costs we have incurred in reselling the Vehicle and will refund the balance of your deposit, if any, after deducting the amount we have lost (i.e. any reduction in the sales price and the additional costs of resale). If our loss is greater than your deposit, you must pay us the difference within 7 days. We will provide copies of any receipts if you request them.
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  #57  
Old 03-17-2013, 09:17 AM
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Nick9597 Nick9597 is offline
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Yeah Xenons are awesome, but the basic halogens are perfectly fine if you have good vision. I have great vision still and don't find the halogens a problem. I really think it's a case of when you compare the xenons with the halogens, of course the halogens look terrible. But left to their own devices, they are perfectly fine.

I didn't get them on my order...other things were more important to me. I drive mostly during the day anyhow.
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  #58  
Old 03-17-2013, 09:23 AM
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Orient330iNYC Orient330iNYC is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by terryn View Post
Yes, contract says deposit in non refundable. In addition is says they can take my trade in compensation too. I'd fight the seizure of the trade in very vigorously. They can claim their losses might be 500, but not 2000 total.
i wouldnt get too worried about that at this point.

even though i'm pretty sure that the contract as written is enforceable in NJ (it would be pretty silly if their legal was allowing them to use unenforceable contracts) the dealer isnt going to cut off its nose to spite its face over 500 bucks.

who are you dealing with over at morristown?
mike wendroff?
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  #59  
Old 03-17-2013, 09:50 AM
terryn terryn is offline
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My CA is Larry Stokes.

I can offer a personal perspective on this debate. I am a project manager who delivers scientific software to large companies. It is not uncommon for them to change their minds, ask for changes, etc. We often bend over backwards to accommodate them, even if it means taking a loss. We don't want an unhappy customer, we don't want litigation. It does not matter whether we are in the right or not. The balance of fairness is usually in the customer's favor. It's not fair, it's business. Whether Morristown BMW feels the same way is yet to be determined.

I admit my error in this case. But I have good reasons for my actions. My CA also could have done a better job discussing available options. All he brought up was the high priced tech and premium packages.
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  #60  
Old 03-17-2013, 09:51 AM
terryn terryn is offline
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Originally Posted by Nick9597 View Post
Yeah Xenons are awesome, but the basic halogens are perfectly fine if you have good vision. I have great vision still and don't find the halogens a problem. I really think it's a case of when you compare the xenons with the halogens, of course the halogens look terrible. But left to their own devices, they are perfectly fine.

I didn't get them on my order...other things were more important to me. I drive mostly during the day anyhow.
I am getting older. I have noticed that driving at night is becoming more difficult. Once I thought this through based on that the Xenons became pretty essential.
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  #61  
Old 03-17-2013, 09:53 AM
terryn terryn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteRock View Post
This is what my contract says:

EFFECT OF CANCELLATION
16. If we cancel the Agreement pursuant to clause 10, or if you cancel the Agreement pursuant to clauses 6, 12 or 15, we will refund your deposit and, provided the cancellation was due to circumstances beyond our reasonable control, we shall have no further liability to you.
17. If we cancel the Agreement pursuant to clauses 13 or 14, we will endeavour to sell the Vehicle to another person. If it is not sold within a reasonable time, we will sell it at auction. Within 7 days of the date of sale, we will give you a statement showing the sales price and any additional costs we have incurred in reselling the Vehicle and will refund the balance of your deposit, if any, after deducting the amount we have lost (i.e. any reduction in the sales price and the additional costs of resale). If our loss is greater than your deposit, you must pay us the difference within 7 days. We will provide copies of any receipts if you request them.
Based on this an earlier comments, it does seem like the UK, and perhaps Europe, takes a much more aggressive stance against the consumer. my contract has none of that language.
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  #62  
Old 03-17-2013, 10:13 AM
Bret_T Bret_T is offline
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Originally Posted by terryn View Post
my contract has none of that language.
So what does it say regarding the depost and cancellation?
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  #63  
Old 03-17-2013, 10:23 AM
terryn terryn is offline
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Here's the non-refundable clause. paragraph 6


It says the deposit is only refundable in cases where the manufacturer raises the price (para 3) or lowers the trade in value (para 4).
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  #64  
Old 03-17-2013, 10:24 AM
Adamo99 Adamo99 is offline
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My only thought is "why would you ever consider purchasing any car without HID lighting??"
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  #65  
Old 03-17-2013, 10:26 AM
terryn terryn is offline
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Originally Posted by Adamo99 View Post
My only thought is "why would you ever consider purchasing any car without HID lighting??"
I researched every package and option very thoroughly, EXCEPT this one. I walked into the deal under-informed. I have no excuse. But once I thought it through I realized this was probably the most essential add on I could pick. It's ironic. No matter what past mistakes were made, it would make no sense to accept the car without the Xenons.
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  #66  
Old 03-17-2013, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by terryn View Post
I researched every package and option very thoroughly, EXCEPT this one. I walked into the deal under-informed. I have no excuse. But once I thought it through I realized this was probably the most essential add on I could pick. It's ironic. No matter what past mistakes were made, it would make no sense to accept the car without the Xenons.
It's really surprising that most dealers don't push the lighting. Mine didn't either. When we started going over everything, I pulled out a piece of paper and said I WANT this. This way I knew I wasn't leaving anything out by getting caught up in the moment.

I didn't get anything from the CA saying the deposit was not refundable. I only got a receipt and even the stuff he emailed to me makes no mention of it.
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  #67  
Old 03-17-2013, 11:10 AM
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I had a situation in '05 when I ordered my 5er that after the car went into production I realized that I just had to have the Comfort Seats. My dealer found an available slot very near the production date of mine and reordered the car exactly the same except for the seat option. I though that I'd be able to see my original order come in before the arrival of my final order but that wasn't the case. Somehow the dealer is able to offer the car to dealers all around the country. Apparently someone wanted it and snatched it up. I don't know if they trade a build slot or not when they do it, but I would think so. Your dealer could probably do the same thing and some dealer, somewhere, will snatch it up with no loss to your dealer.
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  #68  
Old 03-17-2013, 11:15 AM
terryn terryn is offline
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Originally Posted by mdsbuc View Post
I had a situation in '05 when I ordered my 5er that after the car went into production I realized that I just had to have the Comfort Seats. My dealer found an available slot very near the production date of mine and reordered the car exactly the same except for the seat option. I though that I'd be able to see my original order come in before the arrival of my final order but that wasn't the case. Somehow the dealer is able to offer the car to dealers all around the country. Apparently someone wanted it and snatched it up. I don't know if they trade a build slot or not when they do it, but I would think so. Your dealer could probably do the same thing and some dealer, somewhere, will snatch it up with no loss to your dealer.
I know they can. My CA said they'd have to try to sell the car in Florida because it did not have heated seats. When did NJ people become such wimps? it's not that cold here. (but then I have lived in WI). Anyway, they can clearly have it diverted anywhere in the country, so that should make selling it easier.
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  #69  
Old 03-17-2013, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by terryn View Post
I know they can. My CA said they'd have to try to sell the car in Florida because it did not have heated seats. When did NJ people become such wimps? it's not that cold here. (but then I have lived in WI). Anyway, they can clearly have it diverted anywhere in the country, so that should make selling it easier.
Now that's not quite how it works. They can't just "have it diverted". The dealership that ordered the car takes delivery of the car, unless it is marked as a Priority 3 car (unsold, dealer inventory) and another dealer contacts them and asks if they can have it. If the dealership has multiple stores and one of them is in Florida then they can probably handle that internally, but otherwise, absent another dealer wanting it, the car will be delivered to the ordering dealer.
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  #70  
Old 03-17-2013, 11:55 AM
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boltjaM3s boltjaM3s is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by terryn View Post
I know they can. My CA said they'd have to try to sell the car in Florida because it did not have heated seats. When did NJ people become such wimps? it's not that cold here. (but then I have lived in WI). Anyway, they can clearly have it diverted anywhere in the country, so that should make selling it easier.
I live in New Jersey and I tried to order my car without heated seats, didn't feel I needed them in the mild winters we get here. My dealer didn't refuse to take the order, but it actually put him in a position where he had to order the heated seats and give them to me for free because if I backed out of the deal he would be stuck with a car that he couldn't sell.

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  #71  
Old 03-18-2013, 07:55 AM
terryn terryn is offline
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I talked to the sales Manager, Dave, at Morristown BMW this morning. It did not go well. I went in offering to buy a few more options on the car, the idea being it would throw a little more profit their way, and have them ordering a second car with lower risk options on it. I offered to add Premium Pkg and BMW Assist. I just can't spring for the heated seats, that option has no value to me.

They were unimpressed by my offer to add more options, and refused to order a second car no matter what the options with the same 4% discount I was given on the first car. They offered to order me a second at full MSRP. That would involve me paying a $1862 "penalty" on the car, plus it bumps me over $45K and I would have to pay the NJ Luxury tax (.4% - $186). I said no.

They then came back saying I could order the second car at a 2% discount. This involves me paying a $931 penalty on the second order. I said no.

I discussed that their best interests were in maintaining a good customer relationship, and that they really didn't want me posting reviews about this situation. I said I didn't need to post a negative review, just the facts would make them look bad in most peoples eyes. Dave didn't seem to fazed by these arguments. He just kept repeating he was going to be stuck with a car he could not sell. So I said we should just severe our relationship, I walk away and they give me my $500 deposit back. Dave said he's be willing to talk to his manager but they never give deposits back.

In the end, they put the car in priority 5. They said if another dealer snatched it up in a week or so, I could order another car at the 4% discount rate, with the options I wanted. If not, it looks like I am going to have a fight on my hands to get my deposit back - but even so, it's better than the 2% order discount the were giving me. This gives me time to go to other dealers to see what kind of price I can get from them on the car I am looking for.

Last edited by terryn; 03-18-2013 at 07:57 AM.
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  #72  
Old 03-18-2013, 08:02 AM
Adamo99 Adamo99 is offline
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The stress and aggravation dealing with this vendor isn't worth the $500 deposit you're going to lose. I would call them, tell them to pound sand, and tell everybody about your negative experience with them. Even if they let you change your order now and let you order a new car, they would get the difference out of you in unnecessary services and maintenance.

Go to another dealer, and order the exact car that you want.
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  #73  
Old 03-18-2013, 08:05 AM
onetrade onetrade is offline
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I never heard of a dealership ever keeping anyone's deposit, this is absurd. Demand your deposit back, go to another dealership, put in a new order.

If they refuse to give you the deposit file a dispute with your credit card company. Tell them you left a deposit on a car that you are not buying and they are refusing to give you the deposit back.
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  #74  
Old 03-18-2013, 08:13 AM
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Quote:
I talked to the sales Manager, Dave, at Morristown BMW this morning. It did not go well. I went in offering to buy a few more options on the car, the idea being it would throw a little more profit their way, and have them ordering a second car with lower risk options on it. I offered to add Premium Pkg and BMW Assist. I just can't spring for the heated seats, that option has no value to me.

They were unimpressed by my offer to add more options, and refused to order a second car no matter what the options with the same 4% discount I was given on the first car. They offered to order me a second at full MSRP. That would involve me paying a $1862 "penalty" on the car, plus it bumps me over $45K and I would have to pay the NJ Luxury tax (.4% - $186). I said no.

They then came back saying I could order the second car at a 2% discount. This involves me paying a $931 penalty on the second order. I said no.

I discussed that their best interests were in maintaining a good customer relationship, and that they really didn't want me posting reviews about this situation. I said I didn't need to post a negative review, just the facts would make them look bad in most peoples eyes. Dave didn't seem to fazed by these arguments. He just kept repeating he was going to be stuck with a car he could not sell. So I said we should just severe our relationship, I walk away and they give me my $500 deposit back. Dave said he's be willing to talk to his manager but they never give deposits back.

In the end, they put the car in priority 5. They said if another dealer snatched it up in a week or so, I could order another car at the 4% discount rate, with the options I wanted. If not, it looks like I am going to have a fight on my hands to get my deposit back - but even so, it's better than the 2% order discount the were giving me. This gives me time to go to other dealers to see what kind of price I can get from them on the car I am looking for.
Even if you lose the $500, you will still be happier ordering another car that has the lighting package IMO. If you give another dealer a good sob story, they may be willing to take the $500 (or some amount thereof) off the price of your second order to try and make you whole, just for the sake of making you a happy customer. Especially if you are willing to order 'more car' like you offered the first dealer, since this should give them more 'profit' to play with and give some back to you. Please continue to keep us posted!
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  #75  
Old 03-18-2013, 08:18 AM
Jamesonsviggen Jamesonsviggen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by terryn View Post
I talked to the sales Manager, Dave, at Morristown BMW this morning. It did not go well. I went in offering to buy a few more options on the car, the idea being it would throw a little more profit their way, and have them ordering a second car with lower risk options on it. I offered to add Premium Pkg and BMW Assist. I just can't spring for the heated seats, that option has no value to me.

They were unimpressed by my offer to add more options, and refused to order a second car no matter what the options with the same 4% discount I was given on the first car. They offered to order me a second at full MSRP. That would involve me paying a $1862 "penalty" on the car, plus it bumps me over $45K and I would have to pay the NJ Luxury tax (.4% - $186). I said no.

They then came back saying I could order the second car at a 2% discount. This involves me paying a $931 penalty on the second order. I said no.

I discussed that their best interests were in maintaining a good customer relationship, and that they really didn't want me posting reviews about this situation. I said I didn't need to post a negative review, just the facts would make them look bad in most peoples eyes. Dave didn't seem to fazed by these arguments. He just kept repeating he was going to be stuck with a car he could not sell. So I said we should just severe our relationship, I walk away and they give me my $500 deposit back. Dave said he's be willing to talk to his manager but they never give deposits back.

In the end, they put the car in priority 5. They said if another dealer snatched it up in a week or so, I could order another car at the 4% discount rate, with the options I wanted. If not, it looks like I am going to have a fight on my hands to get my deposit back - but even so, it's better than the 2% order discount the were giving me. This gives me time to go to other dealers to see what kind of price I can get from them on the car I am looking for.

Wow, Mtown sales staff are not making themselves look any better the more this is carried on.
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