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E90/E91/E92/E93 (2006 - 2013)
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  #1  
Old 03-18-2013, 10:24 AM
YoPapa YoPapa is offline
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Legal Issues w/Removed Sun Visor Labels

Hi All,

The topic of the eyesore that is the sun visor labels has been discussed like the proverbial dead horse, and I'm not much worried about the process of removing them from my car - it's easy enough to replace the existing ones with a pair of Euro visors.

I'm more concerned about legal issues that arise from this.

There's been a lot of conjecture in previous threads, so I contacted my insurance company about this. They say that insurance coverage is NOT affected in any way by missing visor labels, so that's not an issue at all.

HOWEVER, the open issue is that of potential individual personal liability and a possible personal civil suit by your passengers (or driver), in case of an accident.

Does anyone have any more specific (and non-he-say-she-say) information on the latter?
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  #2  
Old 03-18-2013, 10:48 AM
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tturedraider tturedraider is offline
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Wow. You must have interesting people who ride in your car. Brings to mind the old adage - with friends like those, who needs enemies?

Your job wouldn't happen to be writing warning labels for electric hair dryers or McDonald's coffee cups, would it?
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Old 03-18-2013, 10:49 AM
hondo402000 hondo402000 is offline
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just put a posted in the seat, ride at your own risk
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Old 03-18-2013, 10:57 AM
YoPapa YoPapa is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
Wow. You must have interesting people who ride in your car. Brings to mind the old adage - with friends like those, who needs enemies?

Your job wouldn't happen to be writing warning labels for electric hair dryers or McDonald's coffee cups, would it?
Ha, point taken. But you know the other old adage, though - things usually change when an exceptional situation arises. In case of a serious accident with serious, maybe life-changing injury, anyone (or their family) can change their POV on their friendship with you When it comes to health and money, all bets are off.

And we do live in a country where people are sue-happy, after all

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Originally Posted by hondo402000 View Post
just put a posted in the seat, ride at your own risk
Good one. Would there be liability issues if I removed that post-it?

Last edited by YoPapa; 03-18-2013 at 11:01 AM.
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Old 03-18-2013, 11:18 AM
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pointandgo pointandgo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YoPapa View Post
Hi All,

The topic of the eyesore that is the sun visor labels has been discussed like the proverbial dead horse, and I'm not much worried about the process of removing them from my car - it's easy enough to replace the existing ones with a pair of Euro visors.

I'm more concerned about legal issues that arise from this.

There's been a lot of conjecture in previous threads, so I contacted my insurance company about this. They say that insurance coverage is NOT affected in any way by missing visor labels, so that's not an issue at all.

HOWEVER, the open issue is that of potential individual personal liability and a possible personal civil suit by your passengers (or driver), in case of an accident.

Does anyone have any more specific (and non-he-say-she-say) information on the latter?
This brings back rather recent memories as I was involved with product liability litigation until recent years (I'm not a lawyer). In PL litigation, the plaintiffs bar will usually look for the manufacturer's "failure to warn" and pursue it as part of their litigation. This is why our car, warranty booklets are filled with dire warnings for every conceivable product misuse.

http://www.justia.com/trials-litigat...1200/1205.html

Your're not the one who has to show proof that a warning was not originally posted, BMW does. I wouldn't lose much sleep over this, but I also learned to never underestimate the plaintiff bar's willingness to file frivolous lawsuits with ridiculous claims.
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Last edited by pointandgo; 03-18-2013 at 11:51 AM.
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  #6  
Old 03-18-2013, 11:23 AM
YoPapa YoPapa is offline
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Originally Posted by pointandgo View Post
Your're not the one who has to show proof that a warning was not originally posted, BMW does. I wouldn't lose much sleep over this, but I also learned to never underestimate the plaintiff bar's willingness to file frivolous lawsuits with ridiculouss claims.
The latter is really my only concern. I'd assume the probability is low, but IF it goes there, then it's a serious problem.

As for who needs to show proof - BMW would probably have no troubles proving that they put the visors with warnings into the car during production. The problem at hand would be that in case of the car owner removing these labels, liability probably shifts from BMW to that owner.
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Old 03-18-2013, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by YoPapa View Post
The latter is really my only concern. I'd assume the probability is low, but IF it goes there, then it's a serious problem.

As for who needs to show proof - BMW would probably have no troubles proving that they put the visors with warnings into the car during production. The problem at hand would be that in case of the car owner removing these labels, liability probably shifts from BMW to that owner.


I seriously doubt it.
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Old 03-18-2013, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by pointandgo View Post
[/B]

I seriously doubt it.
I'd like to think so, too, but it'd be great to get actual confirmation on this.
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Old 03-18-2013, 11:38 AM
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Just curious - do you allow passengers in your car to ride unrestrained? I don't give them the choice. The car doesn't go until everyone has a seat belt on.
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Old 03-18-2013, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
Just curious - do you allow passengers in your car to ride unrestrained? I don't give them the choice. The car doesn't go until everyone has a seat belt on.
I'm like you in that respect. No go until seat belts are on.

The question is, though, if any lawsuit could be fabricated stating that I, as the driver/owner, failed to warn my passengers adequately regarding the dangers of the airbags. I don't usually do that before I drive off.
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Old 03-18-2013, 11:43 AM
hondo402000 hondo402000 is offline
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Like anyone gets in a car and says, dont move till I read the warnings on the sun visor, most cars have beeps that annoys you till the passenger pust on their belt. Now if you were doing 100 MPH and hit a tree, I doubt removing the warnings is going to mean anything
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Old 03-18-2013, 11:46 AM
YoPapa YoPapa is offline
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Originally Posted by hondo402000 View Post
Like anyone gets in a car and says, dont move till I read the warnings on the sun visor, most cars have beeps that annoys you till the passenger pust on their belt. Now if you were doing 100 MPH and hit a tree, I doubt removing the warnings is going to mean anything
Completely agree with this - it's ridiculous to think it would matter. But lawsuits and the country we live in are a combination that still makes this a potential major issue if push came to shove.

That's the only reason I'm trying to find out if there's any actual confirmation that it really could never be construed to be turned against me.
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Old 03-18-2013, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YoPapa View Post
I'd like to think so, too, but it'd be great to get actual confirmation on this.
I would recommend, given your concerns...to leave the warning labels in place.
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Old 03-18-2013, 12:11 PM
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My head would hurt if I worried about that stuff.....then I am from a time when you did not have to be told some things like ladders are dangerous if misused or hot coffee can burn you. Maybe its because we had the opportunity to fall off some playground gear & build up a level of expertise on what you could & could not do without getting hurt.
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  #15  
Old 03-18-2013, 12:14 PM
YoPapa YoPapa is offline
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Unhappy

Quote:
Originally Posted by bear-avhistory View Post
My head would hurt if I worried about that stuff.....then I am from a time when you did not have to be told some things like ladders are dangerous if misused or hot coffee can burn you. Maybe its because we had the opportunity to fall off some playground gear & build up a level of expertise on what you could & could not do without getting hurt.
I hear that. Seems to be common sense that things are dangerous, and those warning labels are nothing short of ridiculous in the first place.

Much like having to be told not to dry your cat in the microwave.

But then there's this legal system that we have
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Old 03-18-2013, 12:21 PM
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Im gonna stick my finger in an electrical socket and sue the energy company for putting electricity there and no label in my house. That'll fix em!
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Old 03-18-2013, 12:22 PM
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DSXMachina DSXMachina is offline
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Originally Posted by bear-avhistory View Post
My head would hurt if I worried about that stuff.....then I am from a time when you did not have to be told some things like ladders are dangerous if misused or hot coffee can burn you. Maybe its because we had the opportunity to fall off some playground gear & build up a level of expertise on what you could & could not do without getting hurt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pointandgo View Post
I would recommend, given your concerns...to leave the warning labels in place.
Problem solved!
Anyone can sue for anything, and the bar as to what is frivolous is very high. Even where suits have seemed outlandish, sympathetic juries have overlooked every manner of common sense, logic, and even fine points of the law and made outrageous awards. Why leave yourself open to question?
Or get yourself a multi-million dollar umbrella policy which covers "all other eventualities" and sleep well at night.
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Old 03-18-2013, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear-avhistory View Post
My head would hurt if I worried about that stuff.....then I am from a time when you did not have to be told some things like ladders are dangerous if misused or hot coffee can burn you. Maybe its because we had the opportunity to fall off some playground gear & build up a level of expertise on what you could & could not do without getting hurt.
I once counted eight warning and precautionary labels on a ladder at Home Depot. I beleive that ladder company probably stopped selling their shorter ladders because all the warnings wouldn't fit on them.
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Old 03-18-2013, 01:35 PM
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Regarding the airbag warnings, I would not worry about lawsuits from passengers in the least. If you have a wreck that injures a passenger they are far more likely to come after you for a multi-million-dollar judgment for negligence, reckless endangerment or some other, easier target related to your operation of the vehicle in the moments leading up to the crash. The presence or absence of stickers, warning labels and so on will be pretty far down the checklist of moneymakers.

If you want to lose sleep over this, the parties to be concerned about would be not your passengers but the next owners of the car. Scenario:
  1. Remove airbag warning labels.
  2. Sell the car.
  3. New owner's prized new goldfish, Sparkles, dies of asphyxia when its Baggie is ruptured by the airbag in a crash on the way home from the pet shop.
  4. Owner, traumatized, consults attorney to determine how, and from whom, millions can be recovered to compensate his loss.
  5. Attorney determines new owner was (gasp!) unaware of the dangers of airbags because the Federally-mandated warning labels had been (again, gasp!) willfully removed by the previous owner.
After that, it's just a question of whether your lawyer can beat up his/her lawyer.

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Old 03-18-2013, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pointandgo View Post
I once counted eight warning and precautionary labels on a ladder at Home Depot. I beleive that ladder company probably stopped selling their shorter ladders because all the warnings wouldn't fit on them.
While transporting a ladder a few months back I happened to notice that one of the warning labels (and there are a lot more than eight--those HD ladders are deathtraps! ) insisted that if any of the labels was missing, damaged or illegible, one should contact the manufacturer right away to obtain a new set of labels.
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Old 03-18-2013, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Zeichen311 View Post
Regarding the airbag warnings, I would not worry about lawsuits from passengers in the least. If you have a wreck that injures a passenger they are far more likely to come after you for a multi-million-dollar judgment for negligence, reckless endangerment or some other, easier target related to your operation of the vehicle in the moments leading up to the crash. The presence or absence of stickers, warning labels and so on will be pretty far down the checklist of moneymakers.

If you want to lose sleep over this, the parties to be concerned about would be not your passengers but the next owners of the car. Scenario:
  1. Remove airbag warning labels.
  2. Sell the car.
  3. New owner's prized new goldfish, Sparkles, dies of asphyxia when its Baggie is ruptured by the airbag in a crash on the way home from the pet shop.
  4. Owner, traumatized, consults attorney to determine how, and from whom, millions can be recovered to compensate his loss.
  5. Attorney determines new owner was (gasp!) unaware of the dangers of airbags because the Federally-mandated warning labels had been (again, gasp!) willfully removed by the previous owner.
After that, it's just a question of whether your lawyer can beat up his/her lawyer.

Solid argument there. It's easier to go after the driver/owner for more direct things like negligence, etc. (Unless the injuries can be directly attributed to something like sitting too close to the airbag, which the label would have "prevented" )

When selling the car, I'd pop the original visors back in anyway.
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Old 03-18-2013, 01:44 PM
YoPapa YoPapa is offline
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PS: Is ECS the only/best place to get the Euro visors, or do you guys know of a cheaper/faster vendor?
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Old 03-18-2013, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by YoPapa View Post
cheaper/faster vendor?
May I suggest this product and vendor for your needs.

Then when selling, simply affix a sticky note to each visor that states "ZOMG, fear the airbags and sequestration!" Not only will the next owner not sue you if an airbag deploys, he or she will seek to vote out all political incumbents. What's not to like?

Last edited by Verts4Ever; 03-18-2013 at 02:36 PM.
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Old 03-18-2013, 02:56 PM
YoPapa YoPapa is offline
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Originally Posted by Verts4Ever View Post
May I suggest this product and vendor for your needs.

Then when selling, simply affix a sticky note to each visor that states "ZOMG, fear the airbags and sequestration!" Not only will the next owner not sue you if an airbag deploys, he or she will seek to vote out all political incumbents. What's not to like?
This would be an option if there was a way to remove the labels from the new E92 visors without destroying the visors themselves. AFAIK those are now etched in somehow.
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Old 03-18-2013, 06:28 PM
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I cant believe I just read all this .... please don't tell me you have removed any warning tags from your mattress ......
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