Welcome to Bimmerfest -- The #1 Online Community for BMW related information! Please enjoy the discussion forums below and share your experiences with the 200,000 current, new and past BMW owners. The forums are broken out by car model and into other special interest sections such as BMW European Delivery and a special forum to voice your questions to the many BMW dealers on the site to assist our members!

Please follow the links below to help get you started!

Go Back   Bimmerfest - BMW Forums > BMW Model Discussions > Z Series > E36/7 Z3 (1996-2002)

E36/7 Z3 (1996-2002)
E36/7 Z3 Roadster, Z3 coupe, Z3 M Roadster and Z3 M Coupe talk with our gurus here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 08-07-2004, 08:11 PM
Dennis33's Avatar
Dennis33 Dennis33 is offline
BMW Z4 Coupe
Location: Maineville, Ohio
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 165
Mein Auto: 2007 Z4 Coupe 3.0si
Question S54 - valve adjustments

According to the "BIMMER" magazine:

"Since the S54 engine has the mechanical method of valve actuation, which replaced the hydraulic lifters used on the S52 engine, it requires periodic inspection and clearance adjustments every 15,000 miles, depending how the engine is run".

My S54 engine has always had more valve noise than my S52 engine.
It is my understanding that as the S54 valves start to need to be adjusted, they make even more noise. Is this true?

I have 21K miles on my S54 engine and have not had the valves adjusted.

I am interested in hearing from other S54 owners about when they had their valves adjusted.

The BMW dealer talked me into another year of BMW dealer maintenance for $425.
They said that the "Inspection I" on the S54 engine, which I believe includes a valve adjustment, costs over $900, if done without part of the maintenance.

Comments?
__________________
BMW Z4 Coupe 3.0si (2007)
- Jet Black exterior
- Red leather interior
- 6-speed
- Sports Mode
- Sports Suspension
- BBS CH 18" wheels (8.5" & 10.0")
- ///M Sport Seats
Reply With Quote
Advertisement
  #2  
Old 08-07-2004, 08:22 PM
Randy Forbes's Avatar
Randy Forbes Randy Forbes is offline
Investigative Tinkerer
Location: SW Florida
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 4,952
Mein Auto: ///Motorized Vehicles
Bimmer was the first to report that (I have that issue too) but the information is wrong.

The first valve service is at Inspection One, second at Inspection Two, etc.

Your valves are noisier than in the S-52 because it has "hydraulic lifters" (so to speak) between the cam lobes and valve stems. The S-54 operates the valves from the cam via a small rocker arm and is metal on metal contact or "solid lifter" actuation.

Yes, they will become noisier as wears allows greater lash.

Remember this truth: noisy valves won't cost you money (but tight ones will)!

My 01 hit Insp I at 21,000 miles and the valves were all found to be within spec; no adjustment (made with varying thickness shims) was needed.
__________________

Randy Forbes
1957 Austin-Healey 100/6 Wine Red
1961 McCulloch R1 go-kart Screaming Yellow
1995///M3 Coupe Dakar Yellow Eurosport Twinscrew S/C
1999///M Rdstr Cosmos Black Eurosport Twinscrew S/C
1999///M Coupe Estoril Blue Eurosport Twinscrew S/C
2001///M Rdstr Steel Gray
2011 X5 35i Sport Deep Sea Blue/Cinnamon
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 08-07-2004, 08:32 PM
Mpire's Avatar
Mpire Mpire is offline
The Anti-Rice
Location: Orlando
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 5,377
Send a message via AIM to Mpire Send a message via MSN to Mpire Send a message via Yahoo to Mpire
Mein Auto: S54 M Coupe x2, M52 Z3
Is there a DIY for the valves? What tools do wee need?
__________________
2001 Alpine / Schwartz Coupe
2001 Estoril / Estoril Coupe
2001 Steel Grey / Estoril Coupe
1999 Estoril / Estoril Coupe

Sunroofs are for girls.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 08-07-2004, 08:45 PM
Randy Forbes's Avatar
Randy Forbes Randy Forbes is offline
Investigative Tinkerer
Location: SW Florida
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 4,952
Mein Auto: ///Motorized Vehicles
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mpire
Is there a DIY for the valves? What tools do wee need?
Procedure is in the TIS.

Ron has posted the (few and basic) tools required here about three years ago (search function should turn that up).

Most costly aspect of adjusting the valves yourself is to have the correct shim assortment on hand. Alternative would be to tear it down, record the lash (for 24 valves) and then remove/measure the ones out of spec and order the correct replacement shim.

There's about a hundred dollars worth of seals and gaskets required; they are available to the dealer's mechanic as a "kit" but I think we'd have to order all the parts individually. Not a big deal.
__________________

Randy Forbes
1957 Austin-Healey 100/6 Wine Red
1961 McCulloch R1 go-kart Screaming Yellow
1995///M3 Coupe Dakar Yellow Eurosport Twinscrew S/C
1999///M Rdstr Cosmos Black Eurosport Twinscrew S/C
1999///M Coupe Estoril Blue Eurosport Twinscrew S/C
2001///M Rdstr Steel Gray
2011 X5 35i Sport Deep Sea Blue/Cinnamon

Last edited by Randy Forbes; 08-07-2004 at 08:48 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 08-07-2004, 09:53 PM
Ron Stygar's Avatar
Ron Stygar Ron Stygar is offline
19,585 Miles
Location: CT
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 11,143
Mein Auto: Z4 M Coupe 6LL93033
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Forbes
Procedure is in the TIS.

Ron has posted the (few and basic) tools required here about three years ago (search function should turn that up).

Most costly aspect of adjusting the valves yourself is to have the correct shim assortment on hand. Alternative would be to tear it down, record the lash (for 24 valves) and then remove/measure the ones out of spec and order the correct replacement shim.

There's about a hundred dollars worth of seals and gaskets required; they are available to the dealer's mechanic as a "kit" but I think we'd have to order all the parts individually. Not a big deal.
There is a kit for the shims which I never noticed until looking now that gets you 6 each of the 23 different sized shims. 11 34 0 031 525. At the island internet place it is priced at $234.00.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 08-07-2004, 10:41 PM
Randy Forbes's Avatar
Randy Forbes Randy Forbes is offline
Investigative Tinkerer
Location: SW Florida
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 4,952
Mein Auto: ///Motorized Vehicles
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Stygar
There is a kit for the shims which I never noticed until looking now that gets you 6 each of the 23 different sized shims. 11 34 0 031 525. At the island internet place it is priced at $234.00.
That's not bad at all.

Who is Island internet? Contact info please?
__________________

Randy Forbes
1957 Austin-Healey 100/6 Wine Red
1961 McCulloch R1 go-kart Screaming Yellow
1995///M3 Coupe Dakar Yellow Eurosport Twinscrew S/C
1999///M Rdstr Cosmos Black Eurosport Twinscrew S/C
1999///M Coupe Estoril Blue Eurosport Twinscrew S/C
2001///M Rdstr Steel Gray
2011 X5 35i Sport Deep Sea Blue/Cinnamon
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 08-07-2004, 10:48 PM
Ron Stygar's Avatar
Ron Stygar Ron Stygar is offline
19,585 Miles
Location: CT
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 11,143
Mein Auto: Z4 M Coupe 6LL93033
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Forbes
That's not bad at all.

Who is Island internet? Contact info please?
That's that internet EPC site. Some island in the Pacific where ever.
http://rust.mine.nu/bmw/
I'll check the price with Paul Monday.
Will be doing my first check somewhere around 30K after HC.
The gaskets etc. are on order.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 08-08-2004, 08:58 AM
QikSilver's Avatar
QikSilver QikSilver is offline
Too much is never enough
Location: Ft Lauderdale, FL
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 266
Mein Auto: 01 M roadster
We need to get a group of S54 owners to chip in and buy a shim set. It's a waste of money for each owner to have his own set. When you want to do your valves, find out who used them last and have them shipped to you.

One note about Randy's reply to Dennis: The sole purpose of hydraulic lifters is to dampen the valve train noise. Because the oil in the lifter will "compress" slightly, the valve train can be run with zero lash, which eliminates the clacking. But in a high performance, high revving engine, that hydraulic cushioning creates a slight deviation (lag) in valve timing and lift. Plus variations in the hydraulic lifter height adds to the problem. Modern hydraulic valve trains, with variable valve timing and overhead cams, have come a long way, but if an engine has an 8000 rpm redline, you can bet it has mechanical (non-hydraulic) valve actuation.
__________________
John

01 M roadster, F: GC/Koni short coilover struts, Eibach, Wilwood front brakes, GC tubular swaybar. R: TC Kline springs, short Bilsteins, IE sub & swingarm bushings & shock mounts, 3.23 gear, Rogue dual-ear cover, Eisenmann 4x83 pipes. MISC: Sport mode, Rogue pulleys, keyless, RG Motorsport intake, OZ Superleggera 18" 3 piece.
06 Hemi Durango
04 G35 Coupe
05 Scion xB
07 Scion tC
89 Reynard F2000
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 08-08-2004, 10:45 AM
Randy Forbes's Avatar
Randy Forbes Randy Forbes is offline
Investigative Tinkerer
Location: SW Florida
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 4,952
Mein Auto: ///Motorized Vehicles
Quote:
Originally Posted by QikSilver
We need to get a group of S54 owners to chip in and buy a shim set. It's a waste of money for each owner to have his own set. When you want to do your valves, find out who used them last and have them shipped to you.
I know I'm not alone when I say that I don't want a set of shims that somebody has aleady had their hands in. Let alone several somebodies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by QikSilver
One note about Randy's reply to Dennis: The sole purpose of hydraulic lifters is to dampen the valve train noise...
I think the "sole purpose" was to eliminate valve adjustments so the manufacturer could claim reduced maintenance costs (or effort) compared to their competition.

I should ask my father about that one, he'd remember who the first engine manufacturer was to introduce them (in America) and why.
__________________

Randy Forbes
1957 Austin-Healey 100/6 Wine Red
1961 McCulloch R1 go-kart Screaming Yellow
1995///M3 Coupe Dakar Yellow Eurosport Twinscrew S/C
1999///M Rdstr Cosmos Black Eurosport Twinscrew S/C
1999///M Coupe Estoril Blue Eurosport Twinscrew S/C
2001///M Rdstr Steel Gray
2011 X5 35i Sport Deep Sea Blue/Cinnamon
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 08-08-2004, 10:48 AM
Ron Stygar's Avatar
Ron Stygar Ron Stygar is offline
19,585 Miles
Location: CT
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 11,143
Mein Auto: Z4 M Coupe 6LL93033
Quote:
Originally Posted by QikSilver
We need to get a group of S54 owners to chip in and buy a shim set. It's a waste of money for each owner to have his own set. When you want to do your valves, find out who used them last and have them shipped to you.

One note about Randy's reply to Dennis: The sole purpose of hydraulic lifters is to dampen the valve train noise. Because the oil in the lifter will "compress" slightly, the valve train can be run with zero lash, which eliminates the clacking. But in a high performance, high revving engine, that hydraulic cushioning creates a slight deviation (lag) in valve timing and lift. Plus variations in the hydraulic lifter height adds to the problem. Modern hydraulic valve trains, with variable valve timing and overhead cams, have come a long way, but if an engine has an 8000 rpm redline, you can bet it has mechanical (non-hydraulic) valve actuation.
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...t=valve+adjust

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...t=valve+adjust
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 08-08-2004, 02:52 PM
dwm's Avatar
dwm dwm is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: White Lake, MI
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 3,358
Send a message via AIM to dwm Send a message via Yahoo to dwm
Mein Auto: 2002 M roadster
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Forbes
I know I'm not alone when I say that I don't want a set of shims that somebody has aleady had their hands in. Let alone several somebodies.



I think the "sole purpose" was to eliminate valve adjustments so the manufacturer could claim reduced maintenance costs (or effort) compared to their competition.

I should ask my father about that one, he'd remember who the first engine manufacturer was to introduce them (in America) and why.
My rough recollection is that you're spot-on, it had nothing to do with noise and everything to do with maintenance. You'd have to go way back before my time though, GM engines had hydraulic valve lifters before 1950. So did Harleys. Might have been a wartime development (hard to adjust valves when someone is shooting at you )?
__________________
Daniel
2002 M roadster
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 08-08-2004, 03:57 PM
01silber's Avatar
01silber 01silber is offline
Im here
Location: San Antonio, Texas
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,817
Send a message via AIM to 01silber
Mein Auto: 2001 Z3 3.0i
Higher revving engines use mechanical lifter to keep from " floating the valves"
the hydraulic lifter are used for a no maintenance and sound aspect.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 08-08-2004, 04:12 PM
QikSilver's Avatar
QikSilver QikSilver is offline
Too much is never enough
Location: Ft Lauderdale, FL
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 266
Mein Auto: 01 M roadster
I agree that reduced maintenance probably was the biggest reason for the popularity of hydraulic lifters, but to say noise didn't matter? Sorry, don't agree. Whether they were designed to be quiet, or it just turned out to be an additional plus, once hydraulics started making noise, people complained. It was a rare day back in the 60's, when we didn't have a noisy hydraulic lifter to replace in my uncle's shop.

Randy,
In my years of racing cars and motorcycles, I'd like to have a dollar for every time I dug through someone elses shim collection at the track looking for the one I needed. I considered it lucky if I found one, and not once did I ever think, " I can't use this; someone else had their hand on it."
__________________
John

01 M roadster, F: GC/Koni short coilover struts, Eibach, Wilwood front brakes, GC tubular swaybar. R: TC Kline springs, short Bilsteins, IE sub & swingarm bushings & shock mounts, 3.23 gear, Rogue dual-ear cover, Eisenmann 4x83 pipes. MISC: Sport mode, Rogue pulleys, keyless, RG Motorsport intake, OZ Superleggera 18" 3 piece.
06 Hemi Durango
04 G35 Coupe
05 Scion xB
07 Scion tC
89 Reynard F2000
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 08-08-2004, 05:24 PM
Randy Forbes's Avatar
Randy Forbes Randy Forbes is offline
Investigative Tinkerer
Location: SW Florida
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 4,952
Mein Auto: ///Motorized Vehicles
Quote:
Originally Posted by QikSilver
I agree that reduced maintenance probably was the biggest reason for the popularity of hydraulic lifters, but to say noise didn't matter? Sorry, don't agree. Whether they were designed to be quiet, or it just turned out to be an additional plus, once hydraulics started making noise, people complained. It was a rare day back in the 60's, when we didn't have a noisy hydraulic lifter to replace in my uncle's shop.

Randy,
In my years of racing cars and motorcycles, I'd like to have a dollar for every time I dug through someone elses shim collection at the track looking for the one I needed. I considered it lucky if I found one, and not once did I ever think, " I can't use this; someone else had their hand on it."
Some toys I share and some I don't. I don't consider having what I need, when I need it a waste of money. I already have the tools the S-54 requires to adjust the valves, why not have the shims too?

In your first reply in this thread, you said, and I quote: "The sole purpose of hydraulic lifters is to dampen the valve train noise." Sorry, I don't agree. While noise reduction is a benefit, I doubt it was the motivation for the design. Better sound insulation would've been easier and more profitable.

Where did I say noise didn't matter?
__________________

Randy Forbes
1957 Austin-Healey 100/6 Wine Red
1961 McCulloch R1 go-kart Screaming Yellow
1995///M3 Coupe Dakar Yellow Eurosport Twinscrew S/C
1999///M Rdstr Cosmos Black Eurosport Twinscrew S/C
1999///M Coupe Estoril Blue Eurosport Twinscrew S/C
2001///M Rdstr Steel Gray
2011 X5 35i Sport Deep Sea Blue/Cinnamon

Last edited by Randy Forbes; 08-08-2004 at 05:37 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 08-09-2004, 09:23 AM
Ron Stygar's Avatar
Ron Stygar Ron Stygar is offline
19,585 Miles
Location: CT
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 11,143
Mein Auto: Z4 M Coupe 6LL93033
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Stygar
I'll check the price with Paul Monday.
The shim kit retails for $355.00.
The ones I purchased separately were less per shim.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 08-09-2004, 09:57 AM
Randy Forbes's Avatar
Randy Forbes Randy Forbes is offline
Investigative Tinkerer
Location: SW Florida
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 4,952
Mein Auto: ///Motorized Vehicles
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Stygar
The shim kit retails for $355.00.
The ones I purchased separately were less per shim.
But maybe this one has a neat twenty-three (23) compartment box

I ordered mine through Jay Lilley.
__________________

Randy Forbes
1957 Austin-Healey 100/6 Wine Red
1961 McCulloch R1 go-kart Screaming Yellow
1995///M3 Coupe Dakar Yellow Eurosport Twinscrew S/C
1999///M Rdstr Cosmos Black Eurosport Twinscrew S/C
1999///M Coupe Estoril Blue Eurosport Twinscrew S/C
2001///M Rdstr Steel Gray
2011 X5 35i Sport Deep Sea Blue/Cinnamon
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 08-09-2004, 10:07 AM
Ron Stygar's Avatar
Ron Stygar Ron Stygar is offline
19,585 Miles
Location: CT
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 11,143
Mein Auto: Z4 M Coupe 6LL93033
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Forbes
But maybe this one has a neat twenty-three (23) compartment box
That would be neat. Let us know what shows up.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 08-12-2004, 08:50 PM
Ron Stygar's Avatar
Ron Stygar Ron Stygar is offline
19,585 Miles
Location: CT
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 11,143
Mein Auto: Z4 M Coupe 6LL93033
Valve adjust parts

Ordered some valve parts to see how the shims fit and how the retaining clips come out, which wasn't clear (to me) in the instructions. It is now.














Last edited by Ron Stygar; 08-12-2004 at 10:02 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 08-13-2004, 08:40 AM
Bill Dance Bill Dance is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Chicagoland
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 81
Mein Auto: '00 M Coupe
Anybody know BMW's reason for using shims? My hondas were all adjustable with a bolt and locknut.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 08-13-2004, 08:51 AM
JonM's Avatar
JonM JonM is offline
Moderator
Location: Charleston, SC
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,985
Mein Auto: 01 Mc, 08 M3, Motorrad x2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Dance
Anybody know BMW's reason for using shims? My hondas were all adjustable with a bolt and locknut.
So are all of BMW's motorcycle engines.
__________________
Jon Maddux

14 S1000R | 09 F650GS | 08 E90 M3 | 06 M Coupe | 01 M coupe
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 08-13-2004, 09:13 AM
Randy Forbes's Avatar
Randy Forbes Randy Forbes is offline
Investigative Tinkerer
Location: SW Florida
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 4,952
Mein Auto: ///Motorized Vehicles
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Dance
Anybody know BMW's reason for using shims? My hondas were all adjustable with a bolt and locknut.
Where would you put a bolt/nut on the finger-follower shown in Ron's picture?

Jaguar XK & Lotus DOHC valves are adjusted with shims too. Probably Ferraris too, but I haven't had one of those apart yet...

Most DOHC setups require lifting out the cams (well, British anyway) to change the shims, at least the BMW has sidestepped that task.

Edit: As I remember, part of the design criteria for this engine/cylinder head was to reduce valvetrain mass for higher RPM operation. Hence the lighter components (tiny-tiny shims) and hollow gun-drilled camshafts.
__________________

Randy Forbes
1957 Austin-Healey 100/6 Wine Red
1961 McCulloch R1 go-kart Screaming Yellow
1995///M3 Coupe Dakar Yellow Eurosport Twinscrew S/C
1999///M Rdstr Cosmos Black Eurosport Twinscrew S/C
1999///M Coupe Estoril Blue Eurosport Twinscrew S/C
2001///M Rdstr Steel Gray
2011 X5 35i Sport Deep Sea Blue/Cinnamon

Last edited by Randy Forbes; 08-13-2004 at 09:16 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 08-13-2004, 11:50 AM
Bill Dance Bill Dance is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Chicagoland
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 81
Mein Auto: '00 M Coupe
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Forbes
Where would you put a bolt/nut on the finger-follower shown in Ron's picture?
The adjustment bolt is not in contact with the follower, but adjusts the whole assembly vertically. Essentially, it moves the followers away from or closer to the camshaft, you simply check the clearance with a feeler guage.

The different ways of going about doing the same thing are interesting, seeing as how both companies make excellent, high-revving engines.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 08-13-2004, 03:20 PM
Randy Forbes's Avatar
Randy Forbes Randy Forbes is offline
Investigative Tinkerer
Location: SW Florida
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 4,952
Mein Auto: ///Motorized Vehicles
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Stygar
That would be neat. Let us know what shows up.
Make that a twenty-four (24) compartment box.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	sk_101.JPG
Views:	7089
Size:	40.1 KB
ID:	35509   Click image for larger version

Name:	sk_102.JPG
Views:	7309
Size:	49.3 KB
ID:	35510   Click image for larger version

Name:	sk_103.JPG
Views:	7157
Size:	46.2 KB
ID:	35511  
__________________

Randy Forbes
1957 Austin-Healey 100/6 Wine Red
1961 McCulloch R1 go-kart Screaming Yellow
1995///M3 Coupe Dakar Yellow Eurosport Twinscrew S/C
1999///M Rdstr Cosmos Black Eurosport Twinscrew S/C
1999///M Coupe Estoril Blue Eurosport Twinscrew S/C
2001///M Rdstr Steel Gray
2011 X5 35i Sport Deep Sea Blue/Cinnamon
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 08-13-2004, 03:39 PM
Ron Stygar's Avatar
Ron Stygar Ron Stygar is offline
19,585 Miles
Location: CT
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 11,143
Mein Auto: Z4 M Coupe 6LL93033
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Forbes
Make that a twenty-four (24) compartment box.
Looks good.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 08-13-2004, 03:45 PM
ARC///M's Avatar
ARC///M ARC///M is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Chesnee,South Carolina 29323
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 975
Mein Auto: BMW 01 M Rdstr 00 M Coupe
shimsss

I like the the kit Randy!p/s to the man that wants to share my freinds do not share tools.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Forum Navigation
Go Back   Bimmerfest - BMW Forums > BMW Model Discussions > Z Series > E36/7 Z3 (1996-2002)
Today's Posts Search
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On



Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:42 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
© 2001-2011 performanceIX, Inc. All Rights Reserved .: guidelines .:. privacy .:. terms