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E60 (2004 - 2010)
BMW 5-Series (E60 chassis) was first seen in the Unites States in the fall of 2003 with a 2004 Model Year designation. The E60 is now available as a 528i, 528xi, 535i, 535xi, 550i and a 535xi sports wagon! -- View the E60 Wiki

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  #1  
Old 03-22-2013, 04:30 PM
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Dyno day !!! Finally my (535i) N54 Inline 6 is tuned to an M series

Hi Friends

Finally got some time off and did the dyno run

Look at the below link and the numbers (BMW tuned N54 inline 6)


http://www.bmwblog.com/2011/05/26/dy...331whp362rwtq/


Now it's my turn (No Meth/No Race gas or E85 mix and with the Stock exhaust)

Dyno numbers are pretty ok, but i am going to do one more with the exhaust and race gas.

342whp (425 to the crank)
365rwtq (452 to the crank)

Finally this is what i wanted, getting close or more than the big brothers (M series)

please provide inputs..

Thank you
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Last edited by F1.tifosi; 05-09-2013 at 04:13 PM.
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  #2  
Old 03-22-2013, 04:51 PM
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LOL@ Cobra. Those are hilarious to me, well at least the drivers.
Sweet numbers. Are those on 91 octane? Exhaust will make a big difference.
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Old 03-22-2013, 04:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boramkiv View Post
LOL@ Cobra. Those are hilarious to me, well at least the drivers.
Sweet numbers. Are those on 91 octane? Exhaust will make a big difference.
----
Thanks, I went for the regular pump gas (premium) = 93 octane
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Old 03-22-2013, 05:53 PM
SoCaLE39 SoCaLE39 is offline
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Those are some damn good numbers. When you say M series, I'm assuming you are referring to the E39 M5...
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Old 03-22-2013, 05:55 PM
AlterZgo AlterZgo is offline
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Nice job! You should consider getting a pro-tune for your Cobb. With the mods you have and 93 octane readily available, a pro-tune will cheaply net you substantially more power.
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Old 03-22-2013, 05:58 PM
AlterZgo AlterZgo is offline
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BTW, with the E60 M5 weighing about 4,090 lbs and our E60 535i weighing about 3,660 lbs, even at your current power levels, you may be close to the same hp/weight ratio as an M5.
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Old 03-22-2013, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by SoCaLE39 View Post
Those are some damn good numbers. When you say M series, I'm assuming you are referring to the E39 M5...
It is all fun and Jokes... I really wish i get close to all M's even though i have numbers i think i need a aero dynamic package/suspension package and brakes and etc..

Just to keep smiling, i was just comparing..
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Old 03-22-2013, 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by AlterZgo View Post
Nice job! You should consider getting a pro-tune for your Cobb. With the mods you have and 93 octane readily available, a pro-tune will cheaply net you substantially more power.

Yea you are right, i was talking to Dnezzo from protune quite a few times and emails as well, i might be reaching him again to close this..

Thanks for your inputs..
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Old 03-22-2013, 06:52 PM
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Hey, it's much stronger than stock performance. But with downpipes and FMIC the tune should be able to add another 50 whp/torque. Throw in some E85 and get it dialed in by Protuning Freaks.
The catted downpipes do kill some of the potential, but still there should be a lot of upside to mine.
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Old 03-22-2013, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Oceans10 View Post
Hey, it's much stronger than stock performance. But with downpipes and FMIC the tune should be able to add another 50 whp/torque. Throw in some E85 and get it dialed in by Protuning Freaks.
The catted downpipes do kill some of the potential, but still there should be a lot of upside to mine.
Yea, Protuning is the solution for now to get the beast pushing further
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Old 03-24-2013, 10:30 AM
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Friends

Is there a difference in values between Mustang dyno and Dyno jet, any difference in numbers?

The guy told me the values are always some % lower than other places, please clarify this

Note- The place i did the dyno is a Mustang dyno

I am thinking if i should check else where to confirm? Help me understand this logic please
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Old 03-24-2013, 10:41 AM
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Yes, Mustang is usually quite a bit lower. Dunno why. But if you do a baseline first, then you can see the delta and how much power your tune is adding.
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Old 03-24-2013, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Oceans10 View Post
Yes, Mustang is usually quite a bit lower. Dunno why. But if you do a baseline first, then you can see the delta and how much power your tune is adding.
Thanks, Is the Baseline set during the dyno run or can we play around with the dynojet tool?
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  #14  
Old 03-24-2013, 03:17 PM
AlterZgo AlterZgo is offline
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Baseline measurements on a dyno typically refers to people dynoing their car completely stock. This becomes the "baseline" measurement. For example, most 335s baseline dyno about 260 rear wheel hp or so on a dynojet. As you add mods and re-dyno your car *on the same dyno* you can then compare before and after measurements to see the real differences (delta) that your mods added.

Since you have already added a bunch of mods to your car, you can't really get a true baseline dyno anymore. You can try to find comparable baselines from other E60 535s on the same type of dyno you dyno your car on. Or, you can try to compare your numbers vs. other N54 equipped cars like 335s.

You can still get somewhat of a baseline by setting your Cobb to map 0. This will give you a close to baseline dyno, but clearly you will be making more power than stock due to your downpipes.

As for differences btw Mustang and Dynojet, the Mustang dynos will always show lower power than a Dynojet because there are differences in how they both measure power. Here is a good but very long summary. The bottom line is, stick with one dyno - preferably the same exact one - and that is the best way to measure your progress. You can virtually never compare Dynojet to Mustang or other dyno measurements b/c it's apples and oranges. Even if you apply factors like 10% or whatever, that may not be accurate b/c the differences btw the 2 may not be a linear percentage anyway.

Have fun reading...

Dynojet
The Dynojet chassis dyno is referred to as an inertia-type dynamometer, because large drums provide an inertial load to the drivetrain instead of a friction brake. The working end of the Dynojet includes two 48-inch diameter drums that are mostly below the surface and driven by the vehicle's drive wheels. In the photos of the Dynojet, notice how the rear wheels are centered on the drums and there is one drum per wheel. This will become important later.
The vehicle is typically run in the transmission gear closest to 1:1 (Forth gear for manuals and Third gear for automatics) to or a variable load that maintains a preset engine rpm or vehicle speed. This feature is ideal for forcing the vehicle to operate at certain loads for tuning. The Dynojet can also measure air/fuel ratio while testing.


Mustang
The Mustang chassis dyno uses an Inertia load as well as an eddycurrent brake load to simulate the "actual" load (combined aerodynamic plus rolling frictional load) that the vehicle would experience when in motion. Notice in the photos how the rear wheels sit between two smaller 10.7-inch diameter rollers. There has been some discussion about the tires getting "pinched" between the rollers and creating more rolling friction, but no substantial evidence of this could be found. However, Mustang has a dyno (MD-1750) with a single 50-inch diameter roller per wheel that alleviates the wheel-pinch concerns. The internals of the Mustang dyno are composed of an eddy current brake to provide a variable load and an inertial disc to provide a fixed load. Mustang claims because its dyno loads the vehicle as it would be on the road, you can perform 0-60 mph, 0-100 mph, and quarter-mile measurements on its chassis dyno. Speed Nation has obtained quarter mile times within 0.1 second of actual runs at the track. We're not sure how the launch dynamics are simulated on the Mustang dyno, which
includes weight transfer, acceleration, jerk (the derivative of acceleration - how fast the acceleration occurs) and some other variables. The Mustang dyno can also measure the air/fuel ratio while testing.


CorrectIon Factors
Correction factors are used by both dynos to account for varying atmospheric conditions such as temperature, pressure, and humidity. The measured horsepower and torque are multiplied by the correction factor to obtain the corrected values. This is similar to the corrected times and speeds provided by some quarter mile tracks. Theoretically, you can dyno on a hot day in the high altitude of Denver and on some other cool day at sea level and produce the same corrected horsepower even though the observed horsepower you are producing at each location is different. Both dynos calculate a correction factor based on a Society of Automotive Engineering document (SAE-J1349). When testing was performed on the Dynojet, the correction factor was 1.10, which means the observed numbers were multiplied by 1.10 (adding 10 percent) to get the corrected values. The correction factor for the day when testing was performed on the Mustang dyno was 0.9595 (removing 4.05 percent). The correction factor when road-testing at
Keystone Raceway was 0.962, a correction reduction of 3.8 percent.


Testing
Testing was performed on each dyno using a '00 six-speed Z28 Camaro. We measured the horsepower and torque versus engine rpm in Second, Third, and Fourth gear. The test data also included how fast the engine accelerated in Second and Third gear (in rpm versus time) to be compared with actual road tests to assess each dyno's loading of the drivetrain. After each individual test we let the engine coolant temperature as displayed by our AutoTap OBD-II scanner to read between 200 and 205 degrees F for consistency. Dynojet sent out a representative to Strope's Speed Shop to verify calibration and witness testing. Calibration for the Dynojet is just a matter of verifying that the computer's configure file has the proper load-roller inertia factor. There are no manual calibrations for the Dynojet.
The road tests were pertorrned at Keystone Raceway to provide a level surface to measure the vehicle's rpm versus time in Second and Third gear using AutoTap. Chad Fellabaum of C&C Racing in Pennsylvania weighed the car so the exact weight could be used for the Mustang dyno loading to be compared with the road tests.
The dyno curve charts show horsepower and torque versus rpm in Third gears for both chassis dynos. You can also see that the Dynojet dyno measures a higher rear-wheel horsepower than the Mustang dyno.
The Dynojet measured 5.1 percent higher horsepower in Fourth gear, 7 percent higher horsepower in Third gear, and 8.2 percent higher horsepower in Second gear. We will try and explain this difference a little later.
Graphs 8 and 9 show the engine rpm versus time when the vehicle was loaded by the Dynojet dyno, Mustang dyno, and the actual road loading at Keystone Raceway in Third gear. You can see that the Mustang dyno loaded the car much closer to the actual loading in Second and Third gears.

Why Is loading the Vehicle Important?
The answer to this Question is twofold. First, the engine produces horsepower at the flywheel (brake horsepower) that is reported by the automobile manufacturers. Engine power is coupled to the rear wheels by a transmission and a rearend. But this is no free ride - there are losses in both the trans and the rearend. Therefore, the power to the rear wheels is equal to the flywheel horsepower minus the drivetrain power loss. The drivetrain losses are
mainly composed of three loss areas: friction loss, inertia loss, and viscous loss. The friction loss is largely due to the surfaces of the gear teeth rubbing against each other. Gear friction is related to the torque being transmitted through the drivetrain. The gear power loss is related to the speed at which the torque is being transmitted. This is why it is recommended to have a transmission cooler for towing. The transmission must couple more torque to pull the boat resulting in more frictional power loss, which shows up as more heat in the transmission to be taken away by the transmission cooler.
Inertial loss is related to the rotational acceleration (i.e., angular acceleration) of the drivetrain components. The inertial loss does not result in a power loss (i.e., heat) but absorbs energy that can be coupled to the rear wheels. This energy actually gets stored in the drivetrain components. The stored inertial energy in the flywheel keeps the revs up while the clutch is pressed in during shifts. The inertia loss is more pronounced in lower gears (i.e., First or Second) when the acceleration is highest. The viscous loss is basically the pumping of lubrication fluid in the transmission and the rearend. This is one reason why you get better e.t's when the drivetrain is warm, because the oil is thinner and provides less "pumping loss." Therefore, to measure the actual rear-wheel horsepower, the drivetrain must be properly loaded to obtain the correct drivetrain loss. If the dyno provides a lower drivetrain load, then the drivetrain losses will be lower and the resulting rear-wheel horsepower will be higher.
The second reason why vehicle loading is important is that the newer computer-controlled vehicles use engine load as a control parameter. For example, ignition timing is a function of engine load. You will see higher timing advance when revving the engine in Neutral than you will when the vehicle is fully loaded at wide-open throttle in Third gear. This engine loading factor (and airflow dynamics, which is beyond the scope of this article) can help explain why some people have dyno'd identical to a friend's engine on a Dynojet dyno but got different results on a Mustang dyno.

Which Dyno Measures the Actual Rear-Wheel Horsepower?
West Automotive Performance Engineering has developed a proprietary device that independently measures a vehicle's actual speed and acceleration. This device is similar in operation to a fifth wheel but doesn't use accelerometers that can be influenced by the vehicle's body tilt. Using the vehicle's speed, acceleration, and weight (mass) and the application of simple physics equations, the exact horsepower and torque can be calculated. The horsepower and torque measured by West Automotive Performance Engineering's dyno is actually the horsepower made-good, or the horsepower left over to accelerate the vehicle after all the aerodynamic and rolling-friction losses have been overcome. These losses were accounted for and included West Automotive Performance Engineering's dyno so that a comparison with a chassis dynamometer can be made. The Mustang dyno includes the aerodynamic load that it places on the drivetrain as part of its reported rear-wheel horsepower and torque. Stated another way, the Mustang dyno does not measure the horsepower made-good.
Graphs 7 and 10 show the horsepower and torque versus rpm in Second and Third gear, respectively, for the Dynojet dyno, the Mustang dyno, and from road testing with the dyno from West Automotive Performance Engineering. You can see that the horsepower and the torque, as measured on the road, are closer to the Mustang dyno measurements. Also from the acceleration tests you can see how the Mustang dyno loads the vehicle very closely to how it will be actually loaded on the road. Based on our test data, the Mustang dyno loaded our test vehicle and measured the rearwheel horsepower closer to what the vehicle experiences on the road.

Conclusions

The Test Results table summarizes the testing that we performed. Keep in mind that the peak numbers are influenced by the amount of smoothing or averaging done to the final data. For comparing dyno plots to determine losses or gains, don't focus on the peak values but take a visual average by comparing the before and after curves on the same graph. If you can't see a marked improvement on the dyno, you probably won't see a performance improvement on the street. Also, realize that both the Dynojet and Mustang chassis dynamometers are useful tools that have excellent repeatability. Both dynos measure the correct horsepower and torque for the load that they apply. Both dynos will show losses or gains from modifications. It is recommended that you pick a dyno for your baseline testing and stick with that dyno type and dyno location (and dyno operator) for subsequent testing. Always start at the same engine coolant temperatures before each run. Also, use an OBD-II diagnostic scanner like AutoTap (from B&B Electronics) to monitor your engine's operating parameters. This will provide the best indication of power improvements or losses. We like to monitor the engine-coolant temperature, timing advance, knock retard, pre-cat O2 voltage, and rpm. Monitoring the engine-coolant temperature lets you make sure your engine is at the same temperature before each run to produce the most consistent results. The timing advance and knock retard indicate if any detonation is occurring that results in reduced timing and lower horsepower. After doing some research, the pre-cat O2 voltage can provide a correlation to the air/fuel ratio even though the O2 sensors are not too reliable in this air/fuel ratio region.

The bottom line:

dyno numbers are for show, and track times are for the dough!
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Old 03-24-2013, 05:29 PM
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[QUOTE=AlterZgo;7468319]

Hmmm, that's a lot of learning.. i might read in chunks

I might go back to the same place but with Protuning/Exhaust and this time with some higher octane level..

Keep you guys posted..

Thank you..
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Old 03-24-2013, 05:40 PM
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Nice numbers. Definitely do the protune to get the full potential out of your beast especially since you've got some nice bolt-on's. I'm currently working with jake at PTF and the e-30 map he is putting together is awesome. Granted I've only done dci and exhaust there is still a very noticeable power increase from stg 1 aggressive I was running.
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Old 03-24-2013, 05:58 PM
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Nice numbers. Definitely do the protune to get the full potential out of your beast especially since you've got some nice bolt-on's. I'm currently working with jake at PTF and the e-30 map he is putting together is awesome. Granted I've only done dci and exhaust there is still a very noticeable power increase from stg 1 aggressive I was running.
Thank you dude.. I'll probably reach out to them this week itself and get started, How is it working remotely with PTF? I can drive up to them in Maryland but i am not sure how sooner i can do... Is it effective working remotely with the instructions from them over emails/phone?

Thanks
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Old 03-25-2013, 08:32 PM
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Thank you dude.. I'll probably reach out to them this week itself and get started, How is it working remotely with PTF? I can drive up to them in Maryland but i am not sure how sooner i can do... Is it effective working remotely with the instructions from them over emails/phone?

Thanks
It's not bad, especially since I'm very impatient. But I really don't have a choice since I would have to drive 5 hours south to L.A. to do a Cobb Protune session. If your drive is only a few hours then I would just make the drive since they can run it on a dyno to tune it. Right now I usually do datalogging late at night so there are no cars on the roadway since these custom maps get to triple digits real quick. In the end it's a matter of emailing PTF some datalogs with feedback and then they send you a modified map that you need to datalog again to see the actual performance. I will say though this E30 map they are working on currently kicks ass!
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Old 03-26-2013, 10:52 AM
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It's not bad, especially since I'm very impatient. But I really don't have a choice since I would have to drive 5 hours south to L.A. to do a Cobb Protune session. If your drive is only a few hours then I would just make the drive since they can run it on a dyno to tune it. Right now I usually do datalogging late at night so there are no cars on the roadway since these custom maps get to triple digits real quick. In the end it's a matter of emailing PTF some datalogs with feedback and then they send you a modified map that you need to datalog again to see the actual performance. I will say though this E30 map they are working on currently kicks ass!
Yes, i will take your advice on this... I will block a day definitely and will get this closed..

I am not sure what map they would suggest me, but i am excited.. I will keep you posted

Thanks dude
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Old 03-26-2013, 06:12 PM
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Yes, i will take your advice on this... I will block a day definitely and will get this closed..

I am not sure what map they would suggest me, but i am excited.. I will keep you posted

Thanks dude
Cool. Let me know how it goes and what kind of map you went with. If you have easy access to e-85 do a e-30 or 40 map. Turbos engines LOVE e-85! The map I'm working on right now has my engine peaking out at 17 psi.
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Old 03-26-2013, 06:55 PM
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Cool. Let me know how it goes and what kind of map you went with. If you have easy access to e-85 do a e-30 or 40 map. Turbos engines LOVE e-85! The map I'm working on right now has my engine peaking out at 17 psi.
Yea looks like there are 2 E85 stations around 8 miles distance, Getting more and more excited..

Quick question, I am using 93 octane, can i try using the E85 as a reqular gas. Should i use E85 only when i run the above maps or can i try now just to see if there is any difference..

Thank you so much for these valuable info's
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Old 03-26-2013, 07:00 PM
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Oceans10 Oceans10 is offline
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Check with Cobb re E85 recommendations. I know the LPFP becomes a liability at levels above 45%. Still at that rate you are close to 100 octane when mixing with 93 octane. N54 loves that!
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Old 03-26-2013, 07:13 PM
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booyaazaa booyaazaa is online now
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Damn I wish we had 93 for premium in Cali. Well you can mix in a couple of gallons of e-85 in with your 93 like Peder said however don't go 100% e-85. Even with a couple gallons mixed in I was able to feel a little bit of difference. The big difference was when jake at PTF sent me my first e-30 map the third 3rd gear pull I did the car just moved through the rpm's like butter. I was so thrilled that I didn't realize I was going 100 mph.
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Last edited by booyaazaa; 03-26-2013 at 07:19 PM.
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Old 03-26-2013, 07:25 PM
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Oceans10 Oceans10 is offline
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Coming from the JB4 world, the recommendation is not to go higher than 45% E85, else the LPFP can't move fuel adequately out of the tank and up to the HPFP. My guess is that Cobb is similar as this is a matter of physics, not software. E85 is much denser and heavier to move than regular gasoline. This is why people replace the stock LPFP with a high output Walbro when they go to higher mixtures or larger turbos.

I actually now have Cobb as well and use it to manage fuel, whereas the rest of the tuning management is done by a stacked JB4 race map. The difference is that I can now run the engine further up the rev band without dropping in power. The pulls are stronger up top, north of 5,500 rpms, due to the Cobb fuel management. Best of both worlds I guess. I am on about 40% E85 and 93 with FBO and 70% meth. Boost target is 18.5 psi, so with up to 1.5 psi overboost allowance I hit 20 at times.
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Performance: Protuned Cobb, AR Downpipes, ER FMIC/CP, DCI, RB turbos, KW V2 coilovers, AEM 320E LPFP/ported fuel rail
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Old 03-26-2013, 07:37 PM
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booyaazaa booyaazaa is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oceans10 View Post
Coming from the JB4 world, the recommendation is not to go higher than 45% E85, else the LPFP can't move fuel adequately out of the tank and up to the HPFP. My guess is that Cobb is similar as this is a matter of physics, not software. E85 is much denser and heavier to move than regular gasoline. This is why people replace the stock LPFP with a high output Walbro when they go to higher mixtures or larger turbos.

I actually now have Cobb as well and use it to manage fuel, whereas the rest of the tuning management is done by a stacked JB4 race map. The difference is that I can now run the engine further up the rev band without dropping in power. The pulls are stronger up top, north of 5,500 rpms, due to the Cobb fuel management. Best of both worlds I guess. I am on about 40% E85 and 93 with FBO and 70% meth. Boost target is 18.5 psi, so with up to 1.5 psi overboost allowance I hit 20 at times.
Nice. Damn I just noticed you have RB turbos in your sig too. Your 5er will be blazing fast.
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