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F30 / F31 / F32 / F33 (2012 - current)
The sixth generation 3 series, chassis code F30. 2013 model year 328i and 335i sedans now in production. Read the F30 frequently asked question thread for all your basic question and dive into all the details in the ultimate F30 information thread.

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  #26  
Old 03-26-2013, 08:46 AM
ynguldyn ynguldyn is offline
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Originally Posted by kamigawa120 View Post
Tell that to apple, you know if you get the idea then go with the flow, you don't have to be an ass about it. I'm reading and typing as fast as i could on the fly.
So, you're basically saying that you have no respect for the people you communicate with, and it's the fault of Apple and those people?
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  #27  
Old 03-26-2013, 09:03 AM
bmw325 bmw325 is offline
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I'm really impressed with what tesla has pulled off so far. Most "start up" car companies end up as highly niche players selling a few hundred or maybe a few thousand yearly. The cars often have poor quality, etc. Fisker started around the same time and they have not been nearly as successful or gotten favorable reviews.

Sure the model s has issues but in many ways its ahead of what the mainstream car companies have come up with so far. The i3 is sort of interesting but not very attractive. In looking at the Edmonds long term road test the issues aren't that different from what you'd have in a bmw.

Plus how cool is it that an American company is producing an attractive , workd class, technologically advanced car! GM can go on and on about Cadillac but it hasn't captured my imagination like tesla. Or look at how ford botched the initial run of mkzs (and they have 100 years of experience)

Once they offer leases I expect sales to grow much faster if they can ramp up production.
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  #28  
Old 03-26-2013, 01:02 PM
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What happens if you need to take a road trip? (a few hundred miles)
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  #29  
Old 03-26-2013, 01:41 PM
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AndrewZ AndrewZ is offline
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Originally Posted by mr_clueless View Post
What happens if you need to take a road trip? (a few hundred miles)
Rent a bimmer

Electric cars make sense for city driving, gas motors make sense for long distance traveling.

That's why I never understood hybrid cars. The gas motor works at its worst and same with the electric. Stop and go traffic is all they really are good for.
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  #30  
Old 03-26-2013, 03:31 PM
ynguldyn ynguldyn is offline
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Originally Posted by mr_clueless View Post
What happens if you need to take a road trip? (a few hundred miles)
Right now - a gas rental. In a few years, there should be a pretty decent network of Tesla Superchargers to make this a non-issue in all populated areas.
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  #31  
Old 03-26-2013, 03:50 PM
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Right now - a gas rental. In a few years, there should be a pretty decent network of Tesla Superchargers to make this a non-issue in all populated areas.
So basically it's not practical. Also the car will lose range as the battery ages. I routinely do trips of one way ~150 miles and having to do a rental for every one of those is a deal-breaker. (And charging is not easily available at the destination.)

This stuff is still far from going mainstream, but when it does, it will be a boon to air quality on congested highways. My doctor told me I'm doing as much damage as smoking a cigarette by sitting in stop and go traffic on a highway for an hour a day.
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  #32  
Old 03-26-2013, 03:50 PM
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I'm really impressed with what tesla has pulled off so far.
I am really impressed by Tesla too, but MUST HAVE COMBUSTION ENGINE! Plus, I don't like the idea of being on a long trip, and then having to pull over and waste about 45 minutes while you re-charge your car. I suppose you can always time it with lunch or dinner, but could you imagine if it took 45 minutes to fill your gas tank? What if an emergency came up? Then what?
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  #33  
Old 03-26-2013, 04:13 PM
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I am really impressed by Tesla too, but MUST HAVE COMBUSTION ENGINE! Plus, I don't like the idea of being on a long trip, and then having to pull over and waste about 45 minutes while you re-charge your car. I suppose you can always time it with lunch or dinner, but could you imagine if it took 45 minutes to fill your gas tank? What if an emergency came up? Then what?
Not sure about the engine, but it might be possible that it is able to self-combust.
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  #34  
Old 03-26-2013, 08:36 PM
HugH HugH is offline
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I agree with y'all, this IS the car of the future. I had a laugh at the poster that mentioned about "BMW revolutionary engines". I am guessing he is confusing "revolutionary" with "evolutionary". Perhaps he's too young to recall Audi's "revolutionary engine", the Wankel that was eventually sold to the Japanese. But, you cannot get a more revolutionary engine/car than this Tesla, a car with not one, but 4 electric engines, one at each wheel. As old as I am, I always look to the future and hope for better things to come!

Not to worry about BMW and the rest, they will surely not disappear during our lifespan.

Last edited by HugH; 03-26-2013 at 08:38 PM.
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  #35  
Old 03-26-2013, 09:32 PM
vwvwvw vwvwvw is offline
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Originally Posted by mr_clueless View Post
So basically it's not practical. Also the car will lose range as the battery ages. I routinely do trips of one way ~150 miles and having to do a rental for every one of those is a deal-breaker. (And charging is not easily available at the destination.)

This stuff is still far from going mainstream, but when it does, it will be a boon to air quality on congested highways. My doctor told me I'm doing as much damage as smoking a cigarette by sitting in stop and go traffic on a highway for an hour a day.
They are practical for almost all the commuting miles and short trips everyone does. Most people have second cars so use a regular car for long trips. If you don't have a second car or don't like this idea, then what can I say, Tesla isn't for you right now. But it's still a viable option for a lot of people.
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  #36  
Old 03-26-2013, 10:16 PM
namelessman namelessman is offline
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Originally Posted by HugH View Post
I agree with y'all, this IS the car of the future. I had a laugh at the poster that mentioned about "BMW revolutionary engines". I am guessing he is confusing "revolutionary" with "evolutionary". Perhaps he's too young to recall Audi's "revolutionary engine", the Wankel that was eventually sold to the Japanese. But, you cannot get a more revolutionary engine/car than this Tesla, a car with not one, but 4 electric engines, one at each wheel. As old as I am, I always look to the future and hope for better things to come!

Not to worry about BMW and the rest, they will surely not disappear during our lifespan.
I have seen the production Model S chassis displayed in Telsa showroom, there is only one electric motor at rear axle. The Telsa website mentions that future Model X can have dual electric motors for AWD, however I haven't read any news of 4 electric engines(one per wheel), maybe you are referring the 3-phase 4-pole AC induction motor(but still one motor)?
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  #37  
Old 03-27-2013, 04:23 AM
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They are practical for almost all the commuting miles and short trips everyone does. .
Practical? How much do these things cost again? LOL!
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  #38  
Old 03-27-2013, 04:32 AM
KLC KLC is offline
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Practical? How much do these things cost again? LOL!
This car is not practical by any stretch of the imagination. It costs a LOT. You could buy enough Honda accord to last you the rest of your life if you bought the high range model. Also, the battery packs in this thing are going to need to be replaced in 5-7 years....and those are very, very expensive. The infrastructure problem is something that can be fixed, but not in the short term. The only electric car that would be practical now is a small, relatively cheap car that someone who has a very short commute could plug in every night. I would still bet that they could find a much cheaper gasoline alternative, though.
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  #39  
Old 03-27-2013, 06:44 AM
OBS3SSION OBS3SSION is offline
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Cost - The Tesla Model S's direct competitors in size and performance are the BMW 7, Audi S8, Porsche Panamera, etc. The Model S's $50-100K price (depending on battery and options) seems very reasonable to me.

Range - The smallest battery is sufficient for something like 90% of drivers, 98% of the time. You can already drive from Boston to DC and most of CA using the Supercharger stations. Tesla is aggressively ramping up the SC network which should alleviate most range anxiety issues. Remember, if you have a 250 mile range, that's ~4 hours of driving. You're going to want to stop for a pee and food anyway, so might as well plug in for that 30-45 minutes.

People don't stop and realize that ALL cars are compromises: If you own a sedan and need to go somewhere with 5+ people, you need to rent a minivan or SUV. If you own a sports car and make a large purchase at Home Depot, you need to rent a pickup truck. If you own an electric car, and need to drive cross-country, you rent something that suits your needs. What's the difference!?

A Tesla Model S with the smallest battery would meet my driving needs about 99.5% of the time. The other .5%, I can drive my M3 (long road trips) or rent something like my upcoming family road-trip to Misery (Missouri) with 8 people in a rented Suburban.
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  #40  
Old 03-27-2013, 07:14 AM
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I have to weigh in to say I think the Model S is VERY competitively priced; it competes in feature set and size with the 5 series... but with the option of more seats. The only cost problem is the cost of having your garage appropriately wired up for one of the dedicated chargers (220V). Having said that, it's a one time cost.

As far as range... I remember reading a study a few years back that even in the car-loving USA, less than 5% of people drive more than 100 miles a day. That's well within the average range of the Model S even on the low end. And really; it's like a smartphone in that you get home and plug it in. That means every day you have a "full tank"; you're not going to just park it and not bother, at least if you plan to go anywhere the following day

It requires a bit of change in the way you manage your "refueling" as well as a slight change in perspective, but for the majority of the American population the Model S would work just fine.

Sure, it's going to be no good for apartment dwellers (unless your landlord installs chargers in the car park!) but since it's targeted at the 5-series and 7-series buyers, I'd say the majority of them are probably homeowners anyway with a decent amount of disposable income.

On-topic, I think the only thing that's going to prevent a 3-series competitor from being as successful as the Model S has already been is the fact that a good number of 3-series are purchased by people with less disposable income or those same apartment-dwellers working as salespeople on that first big sale that'll allow them to buy a house... and a 5-series (or Model S). These people also likely have less disposable income and therefore less likely to be able to install the charger in the garage or carport as easily. I think that Musk needs to focus on the "supercharger" stations first and foremost because they are likely to be used a lot more by the "Model S3-Series" owners than "Model S" owners.
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  #41  
Old 03-27-2013, 07:20 AM
namelessman namelessman is offline
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Originally Posted by OBS3SSION View Post
A Tesla Model S with the smallest battery would meet my driving needs about 99.5% of the time. The other .5%, I can drive my M3 (long road trips) or rent something like my upcoming family road-trip to Misery (Missouri) with 8 people in a rented Suburban.
One main requirement on pure electric car is a charging station at home, for most US apartment renters that is a big challenge. The BMW i3(and probably future i5 and such) on the other hand has a range extender version that is rumored to use a small air-cooled 2 cyclinder engne(from motobikes) to charge the batteries. That, and other cars like Volt, seems to be more practical than pure electric cars.
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  #42  
Old 03-27-2013, 09:43 AM
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The infrastructure problem is the grid... not nearly enough electrons to replace half of the carbons burners on the road today.
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  #43  
Old 03-27-2013, 12:20 PM
HugH HugH is offline
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I have seen the production Model S chassis displayed in Telsa showroom, there is only one electric motor at rear axle. The Telsa website mentions that future Model X can have dual electric motors for AWD, however I haven't read any news of 4 electric engines(one per wheel), maybe you are referring the 3-phase 4-pole AC induction motor(but still one motor)?
You're right. I somehow mistook an article I read sometime back about Audi working with such a system. It appears that it turned out to be vaporware.

Here's an interesting news item:

Mercedes Bringing Tesla-Powered EV to U.S. Next Year
http://www.wired.com/autopia/2013/03...lass-electric/

A small 100 mile MB with Tesla battery providing the power.
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  #44  
Old 03-27-2013, 12:37 PM
HugH HugH is offline
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I am really impressed by Tesla too, but MUST HAVE COMBUSTION ENGINE! Plus, I don't like the idea of being on a long trip, and then having to pull over and waste about 45 minutes while you re-charge your car. I suppose you can always time it with lunch or dinner, but could you imagine if it took 45 minutes to fill your gas tank? What if an emergency came up? Then what?
Each person must decide which particular car fits their needs. Metroplex car guru Ed Wallace runs around Ft Worth in a small electric Mitsubishi car, doing his errands, shopping, etc. However, whenever he has to go out of town, to the radio station in Dallas, visit friends and business associates all over the Metroplex, he just uses whatever gas car he happens to be reviewing that week. He plugs his Mits to the wall each night and never has to stop for gas...

In our case, if we're going on vacation, we just fly. I hate having to sit in a car in traffic. I don't have patience any more! Even a short trip to Dallas sometimes takes an hour or more whenever there is a car wreck on I30 or construction. There is no joy in driving around here anymore. Even in town I swear they have the red lights set-up so you have to stop at each and every light

Last edited by HugH; 03-27-2013 at 12:41 PM.
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  #45  
Old 03-27-2013, 12:55 PM
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krash krash is offline
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The infrastructure problem is the grid... not nearly enough electrons to replace half of the carbons burners on the road today.
This is a big issue. What happens to our electricity demand when everyone starts plugging these in every night?


Quote:
Originally Posted by HugH View Post
Each person must decide which particular car fits their needs. Metroplex car guru Ed Wallace runs around Ft Worth in a small electric Mitsubishi car, doing his errands, shopping, etc. However, whenever he has to go out of town, to the radio station in Dallas, visit friends and business associates all over the Metroplex, he just uses whatever gas car he happens to be reviewing that week. He plugs his Mits to the wall each night and never has to stop for gas...

In our case, if we're going on vacation, we just fly. I hate having to sit in a car in traffic. I don't have patience any more! Even a short trip to Dallas sometimes takes an hour or more whenever there is a car wreck on I30 or construction. There is no joy in driving around here anymore. Even in town I swear they have the red lights set-up so you have to stop at each and every light
Well, we're in a little different mode here...

I can't even count how many colleges we have visited for my son and daughter up and down the east coast over the last 2 years.

Many of these colleges are in small towns with no airport anywhere close...

Honestly, I wouldn't even consider using the Tesla for these trips. No infrastructure, no proven track record...
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  #46  
Old 03-27-2013, 01:49 PM
namelessman namelessman is offline
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This is a big issue. What happens to our electricity demand when everyone starts plugging these in every night?
Sounds like a recipe for rolling blackout, doesn't it? Some people in our area do install solar panels on suburb roof tops, they tend to be self-sustained in terms of electricity usage and the saved gas cost helps to offset the solar panel costs. However, when factored in the cost of battery replacement down the road, the real saving is not as dramatic.
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  #47  
Old 03-27-2013, 01:59 PM
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Sounds like a recipe for rolling blackout, doesn't it? Some people in our area do install solar panels on suburb roof tops, they tend to be self-sustained in terms of electricity usage and the saved gas cost helps to offset the solar panel costs. However, when factored in the cost of battery replacement down the road, the real saving is not as dramatic.
Those solar panels are another rip-off. I did a cost benefit analysis on those. It will take decades before you get your money back.

The only thing that is advantageous is that you can get off the grid and be self-sufficient, but don't plan on saving any money on those...
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  #48  
Old 03-27-2013, 02:15 PM
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Sounds like a recipe for rolling blackout, doesn't it? Some people in our area do install solar panels on suburb roof tops, they tend to be self-sustained in terms of electricity usage and the saved gas cost helps to offset the solar panel costs. However, when factored in the cost of battery replacement down the road, the real saving is not as dramatic.
No oil changes, no broken belts to replace, no mufflers, no change of anything. Brakes and tires and what else? As far as batteries, they are covered for 8 yrs and they have been lasting much longer on the Toyotas. In my case, I get bored driving the same car for over 3 yrs. If this car turns out so great, I'd be trading it for the next version as soon as it comes out, or for a competitive car by different manufacturer...BMW? Battery... no problems!
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  #49  
Old 03-27-2013, 04:43 PM
namelessman namelessman is offline
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No oil changes, no broken belts to replace, no mufflers, no change of anything. Brakes and tires and what else? As far as batteries, they are covered for 8 yrs and they have been lasting much longer on the Toyotas. In my case, I get bored driving the same car for over 3 yrs. If this car turns out so great, I'd be trading it for the next version as soon as it comes out, or for a competitive car by different manufacturer...BMW? Battery... no problems!
Good points. At 4600+lbs, I do wonder how many miles typical Model S drivers can squeeze out of those 21-inch performance tires, which are probably $2k+ for a set of 4.

Last edited by namelessman; 03-27-2013 at 04:48 PM.
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  #50  
Old 03-27-2013, 06:23 PM
Supermax Supermax is offline
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I don't buy BMWs because of the antiquated internal combustion engine. I buy BMWs because I like the way that they look and the way that they drive. Every report I've read says that the Model S hangs out with the likes of the Panamera and everything else the Germans make. Plus, subjective though it may be, I think the Model S is gorgeous.

Regarding that engine; given a choice between a mechanically complex and inefficient combustion engine and an electric that provides power and efficiency and a forward look to the future, I'd take the Model S in a heartbeat! The ONLY thing stopping me at this very moment is I don't have $5K to put down as a deposit, and I can't afford the $90K my "dream" Tesla would sticker at.
Agree 100% with every single word here.
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