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E90/E91/E92/E93 (2006 - 2013)
The E9X is the 4th evolution of the BMW 3 series including a highly tuned twin turbo 335i variant pushing out 300hp and 300 ft. lbs. of torque. BMW continues to show that it sets the bar for true driving performance! -- View the E9X Wiki

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  #26  
Old 04-03-2013, 08:44 AM
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Originally Posted by vst335is View Post
I don't think there is a stage 3 intake yet, just stage 2. Is it worth the oil cooler? Also the stage 2 without the elite outputs the same power and its cheaper. I thought the is cools the oil enough with its stock setup. Good info here
Oops my bad I meant to say aFe Stage 2 Elite. Will try to edit and correct that.

The aFe Stage 2 is a "direct" replacement of the stock intake so there is no need to delete the second aux rad in which the Dinan CAI requires.

Upgrading the to the Dinan OC is a plus for the turbos and DCT
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  #27  
Old 04-03-2013, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by daytrader View Post
According to Car & Driver; 2011 BMW 335is
Power: 320 bhp @ 5900 rpm
Torque: 370 lb-ft @ 1500 rpm (est)

Break(b) is the same as crank.

Since math is your example:
320bhp -15% = 272whp(335is)
398bhp -15% = 338whp(Dinan S3)

The net is 66whp more with a Dinan S3, wheel to wheel. 18WHP difference is incorrect.

You seem to make a lot of mistakes when Dinan is in the subject matter. What gives?
No mistake, I posted the stock 335IS dyno & can post a bunch from other 335is tests by other owners that support the numbers. They are within about 5WHP even though they were done in different parts of the country on different machines. I did not challenge Dinan's claim of 398BHP at the crank but typically tuners put forward their best numbers in advertising. Its know as the Glory Run in the business.

Since Dinan is the only tuner not to use industry standard ratings for horsepower but use a system that will let them "look" better to the uninitiated because of their higher posted numbers, might the 398BHP be suspect?

Will take a risk & say I am not sure but I can't fine a N55 Dinan Stage 1 as a product so I am guessing that the Stage 2 is the base. That being said they advertise it at 355BHP. Dyno below is a base Dinan N55 tune, again not sure if its the stage 2 or not. If its Stage 1 post the advertised horsepower number.

A lot of what BMW does with its power ratings is all about marketing. If you work backward from actual tested WHP using a standard 15% loss factor, many cars can run as high as 18-20% loss, you get what you would expect an engine brake dyno to develop as BHP not what the advertising department says it is.

BHP is the motor out of the car attached directly to a dyno in a lab type environment. Its nothing like testing in a car with tight plumbing, a transmission & everything behind it, engine compartment heat etc.

The 335is & its IS cousins are very close to the advertised number & are an outliers as far as how BMW rates their cars. The 335i is listed at 300BHP by BMW but only tests around 265whp on the same dyno as the 335is. The same basic N54IS motor in the 1M is rated at 335bhp by BMW & was dynoed by Edmund's at 331WHP on the same make dyno. The 335 PPK rated at 320BHP by BMW for both the N54 & N55 tests at 310WHP & 295WHP on the dyno.
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  #28  
Old 04-03-2013, 10:57 AM
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The numbers below are from Car & Driver, a well respected national publication with professional test equipment. I'll go with these numbers.


Dinan S3 335i Specifications
VEHICLE TYPE: front-engine, rear-wheel-drive, 4-passenger, 2-door coupe
ENGINE TYPE: twin-turbocharged and intercooled DOHC 24-valve inline-6, aluminum block and head, direct fuel injection
Displacement: 182 cu in, 2979 cc
Power (SAE net): 408 bhp @ 5700 rpm
Torque (SAE net): 440 lb-ft @ 3700 rpm
TRANSMISSION: 6-speed manual
DIMENSIONS:
Wheelbase: 108.7 in Length: 180.6 in
Width: 70.2 in Height: 53.6 in
Curb weight: 3554 lb
C/D TEST RESULTS:
Zero to 60 mph: 4.4 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 10.8 sec
Zero to 150 mph: 25.8 sec
Street start, 5–60 mph: 5.1 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 13.0 sec @ 111 mph
Braking, 70–0 mph: 154 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.99 g
FUEL ECONOMY:
C/D observed: 20 mpg
*Base price includes all performance-enhancing options.



BMW 335is Specifications >
VEHICLE TYPE: front-engine, rear-wheel-drive, 4-passenger, 2-door coupe
ENGINE TYPE: twin-turbocharged and intercooled DOHC 24-valve inline-6, aluminum block and head, direct fuel injection
Displacement: 182 cu in, 2979cc
Power: 320 bhp @ 5900 rpm
Torque: 370 lb-ft @ 1500 rpm (est)
TRANSMISSIONS: 6-speed manual, 7-speed dual-clutch automated manual
DIMENSIONS:
Wheelbase: 108.7 in
Length: 181.9 in
Width: 70.2 in Height: 54.1 in
Curb weight: 3650–3750 lb
PERFORMANCE (C/D EST):
Zero to 60 mph: 4.5–4.8 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 13.2–13.5 sec
Top speed (governor limited): 155 mph
FUEL ECONOMY (MFR'S EST):
EPA city/highway driving: 17/26 mpg


Based on these figures I still contend a stock 335is, though a very nice BMW, is no match for Dinan S3. On the other hand a modified 'IS is a different story and that is where I will leave it. Others can read and make their own assessments.
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  #29  
Old 04-03-2013, 11:21 AM
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Ok but an et of 13.0 vs 13.1 seconds & a speed of 111 vs 109mph does not support the posted numbers. This is especially true with a first timer at the track putting up the numbers VS a C&D pro driver. 400HP 335's are in the 11 second range. Your results may vary




EDIT: Forgot to add this before. You are aware that C&D just repeats the specs that the supplier in this case BMW/Dinan gives them so the only independent C&D created data is the road test & track test itself. That is the reason the track data does not support the specs.
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  #30  
Old 04-03-2013, 11:25 AM
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I'm very interested in this topic but shocked at the shortsightedness of the horsepower per dollar argument. A straight max horsepower rating is meaningless in real life where you are surpassing the intercooler and drivetrain limitations. In other words too much boost to attain the max horsepower solely will overwhelm the intercooler and could overspin the turbos. Furthermore you don't mention throttle response and lag in your arguments. When I worked for Nissans GTP program we had 'Elvis' a single turbo 3.0 liter car that made 1000 HP on the dyno but was replaced by smaller twin turbos that made about about 800 horsepower but was faster on almost all tracks and more driveable. So you really should look at lag, driveabilty and reliability in your discussion. Dinan seems to address this because they warranty the car. So you might get one or two strong pulls from your over boosted tune but by then your IC is heat soaked and the turbo bearings running on 5w-30 are screaming in agony. What these tuners should do is offer their cars for independent testing by car and driver etc.
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  #31  
Old 04-03-2013, 12:50 PM
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Couple of points. Last conversation was about a stock 335is vs. a modified car. The stock car will limit the time at max boost to 7 seconds. The car does not run max boost through out the 1/4 & generally heat soak has only been an big issue on a road course. If it heat soaks at the strip wet it down. With the 7 second limit its still close enough to the Stage 3 to be a reaction time race using the C&D test & the 335is on track visual of the new guy. So in this case a traffic light grand prix or a test & tune night at the strip its adequate not the best solution but adequate. Even with limits they are still running with the top of the line Dinan tune. Maybe Dinan might get a few more runs but its time/mph is what it is.

Most guys who are going to the track on a regular basis are adding an FMIC because its common sense, I did for $550, self installed. On a budget they are in the $400 range. Dinan's version of the Spearco FMIC is $1000+. Since is very rare to see a Dinan car at the strip I would think most are street cars so its not much more than a talking point at the drive in.

Moving to modified, right now the quickest 335is JB4 BMS back end tune only car running stock tires that I am aware of is at 11.9 seconds 118mph. I have 3 of his time slips so he did make more than a single run on the factory FMIC.

Advertising claims aside Dinan sells insurance. To make a profit they charge a lot of money for their products & are as conservative in power generation as they can get away with on their tune. Dinan is a non-started on the major tech oriented 335 site. On the 256 runs listed in the 335 section of Drag Times there are a very few Dinan posts mostly by BuraQ but despite his past staunch defense of the Dinan products when he wanted to go faster/quicker he went elsewhere.
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  #32  
Old 04-03-2013, 02:06 PM
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Bear- I am asking this not to jerk your chain over our the issues we have aired here, but you do seem to have a lot of knowledge about JB4 and tunes in general, and so I sincerely ask if the JB4 tune makes the same kind of changes to other parameters that the Dinan website advertises? And, if the JB4 does not, do you attribute any value to those changes? Just interested in your thoughts and opinions. The specific distinctions Dinan advertises (edited for length) and to which I inquire:

1. All of the communications between the engine sensors and the engine management computer (DME) remain unaltered. This translates to properly returned fuel mixtures, Ignition timing and full map rescaling to keep everything in sync.
2. Properly returned fuel mixtures to the DME along with a correct tune means keeping the engine running cooler with less wasted fuel. Ignition timing is a critical part of the equation to limit engine knock. Dinan Performance Software includes full map rescaling to protect the engine and keep everything running smoothly.
3. BMW worked hard to build systems to protect the engine in case of a failure, Dinan keeps all of these systems in place for the safest possible tune.
4. In an effort to more effectively control oil and water temperatures, the Dinan software actually increases water pump speeds as boost pressure increases.

My thought process, no matter how flawed it might be, was that the Dinan "model" make the tune "safer" for a car that I intend to own well past the warranty period of Dinan and BMW. And I think you are exactly right, people like me who buy Dinan buy it for an entirely different reason than many who buy JB4, etc. My gut is that Dinan buyers are not typically looking for the fastest car or a track car, they are looking for a well performing car that they can enjoy on a daily basis and not worry about whether the tune is taking years off the life of their car. I wish the 335is was around when I bought my car. It really would have been a no-brainer. I had a 1986 325is and so I have a weak spot for is models.
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  #33  
Old 04-03-2013, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by LarkHouston View Post
My thought process, no matter how flawed it might be, was that the Dinan "model" make the tune "safer" for a car that I intend to own well past the warranty period of Dinan and BMW. And I think you are exactly right, people like me who buy Dinan buy it for an entirely different reason than many who buy JB4, etc.
I felt the same way but after logging many miles with the cobb and reading about jb4, exc. users who are going 100+ easy on cars and not having major problems I honestly feel like the steps required to get to stage3 and beyond are worth saving and just throwing a jb4/cobb on the car and enjoying it.

I feel like if you really maintain the car well as long as you aren't maxing out custom maps the stock maps/light protune maps + FMIC, EXHAUST, DPs, and CAI you really should be fine. Now things like spark plugs, coils, exc. will die faster but those aren't problems in my op like blowing turbos, transmissions exc.
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  #34  
Old 04-03-2013, 03:51 PM
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Dinan philosophy is all about safely tuning your BMW for the long haul at least that's how the literature reads to me. Something that is important to some but a non-concern to others.

If I wanted just fast & cheap in a straight line, I would go with a JB flash, strap on a bottle, mix in some e85 and probably do it all for under a grand.

I'm just not that kind of risk taker, nor do I have the DIY skills to fix it if it all goes bad, thus Dinan fits my needs and presumably keeps me out of the hands of paying service centers.
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  #35  
Old 04-03-2013, 04:17 PM
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There is nothing wrong with other tunes other than dinan, most of the users have jb4 or cobb and do not have any problems running them for years. These tunes are as reliable as dinan and provide much more power
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  #36  
Old 04-03-2013, 04:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarkHouston View Post
Bear- I am asking this not to jerk your chain over our the issues we have aired here, but you do seem to have a lot of knowledge about JB4 and tunes in general, and so I sincerely ask if the JB4 tune makes the same kind of changes to other parameters that the Dinan website advertises? And, if the JB4 does not, do you attribute any value to those changes? Just interested in your thoughts and opinions. The specific distinctions Dinan advertises (edited for length) and to which I inquire:

1. All of the communications between the engine sensors and the engine management computer (DME) remain unaltered. This translates to properly returned fuel mixtures, Ignition timing and full map rescaling to keep everything in sync.
2. Properly returned fuel mixtures to the DME along with a correct tune means keeping the engine running cooler with less wasted fuel. Ignition timing is a critical part of the equation to limit engine knock. Dinan Performance Software includes full map rescaling to protect the engine and keep everything running smoothly.
3. BMW worked hard to build systems to protect the engine in case of a failure, Dinan keeps all of these systems in place for the safest possible tune.
4. In an effort to more effectively control oil and water temperatures, the Dinan software actually increases water pump speeds as boost pressure increases.

My thought process, no matter how flawed it might be, was that the Dinan "model" make the tune "safer" for a car that I intend to own well past the warranty period of Dinan and BMW. And I think you are exactly right, people like me who buy Dinan buy it for an entirely different reason than many who buy JB4, etc. My gut is that Dinan buyers are not typically looking for the fastest car or a track car, they are looking for a well performing car that they can enjoy on a daily basis and not worry about whether the tune is taking years off the life of their car. I wish the 335is was around when I bought my car. It really would have been a no-brainer. I had a 1986 325is and so I have a weak spot for is models.
1. Is true as a fact that its loaded into the ECU vs. the JB4 which sits between the sensors & ECU. The JB4 receives data from the sensors & creates its own inputs to make the ECU see what the JB4 wants it to see then passes it on. End results are not different, AFR & timing etc. are altered by the JB 4 based on the motors demands.

COBB functions same as Dinan as its loaded into the ECU. It’s the piggy back vs. flash debate. As a practical matter the piggy's have been much better received because they provided more flexibility than a flash but now hybrid systems that combine COBB flash & JB4 piggy are doing very well at the top of the power generation curve. The Hybird will be the future for extreme horsepower application. For all the rest the traditional choices will be around for awhile.

2. Is a non runner all the tunes need to do this to function

3. Not sure what Dinan provides over what the standard BMW tune does. The JB4 will not arm until the oil reaches 160 degree.s It also has an oil over temp limit, don’t remember the number that will shut the JB4 down till an engine restart. Boost over a pre set limit (boost overrun) will drop the JB4 off line & flash the check engine lights. Without hitting the whole list, its on the web site, this will provide some idea what it does. Can’t speak to COBB on these items but believe the PROceed piggy has some of these features.

The main thing to take away from this section is you will not find damaged engines based on what Dinan can do that everybody else can’t. The N54 is very robust & is already running over 700whp without touching the inside of the motor.

4. JB4 has water pump speed control built in as a selectable item with the steering wheel buttons. Its called the improved cooling menu & has a number of settings IIRC. I already have an oversized fan & cooling package so I don't use it.
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  #37  
Old 04-05-2013, 07:41 AM
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I really wish I knew more about how all this works. I just don't feel like I have the basic knowledge to be able to understand the software/hardware interactions, etc. to really make an intelligent and informed decision. Which again, is another reason I went Dinan. Been around a long time, good reputation, etc. I think JB, Cobb and some of the others may be establishing a track record now that one can take that all into account. At the time I bought mine in 2009 (almost 4 years ago), I didn't feel comfortable with those other options. Thanks for the info.
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  #38  
Old 04-05-2013, 08:36 AM
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I really wish I knew more about how all this works. I just don't feel like I have the basic knowledge to be able to understand the software/hardware interactions, etc. to really make an intelligent and informed decision. Which again, is another reason I went Dinan. Been around a long time, good reputation, etc. I think JB, Cobb and some of the others may be establishing a track record now that one can take that all into account. At the time I bought mine in 2009 (almost 4 years ago), I didn't feel comfortable with those other options. Thanks for the info.
Lol bro its not like you got a wrx and about to spend 5-8k on various turbo upgrade options... One is 400-500 (less if you get used), another is 600-900, and dinan with coupon is like 1100-1400.
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  #39  
Old 04-05-2013, 08:51 AM
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Lol bro its not like you got a wrx and about to spend 5-8k on various turbo upgrade options... One is 400-500 (less if you get used), another is 600-900, and dinan with coupon is like 1100-1400.
Well, it was little more than that with the OC, CAI, FMIC, PE and S3. I am avoiding actually adding it up since I did it over 3.5 years and in 3 different tranches. First the S2 and OC when I bought it. Then the CAI about a year later. And most recently the S3, FMIC and PE. The OC and S2 were done at a substantial discount as a make good on some other issues I had with a 545i that was a bit of problem child that I traded in to get this 335. The CAI was supposed to be at a discount but ended up not being after quite a fight with the dealer, but that is a long story for another time. I did get the FMIC and S3 with a nice discount. And the PE is actually the BMW PE, which is much cheaper than the Dinan and by all accounts, better sounding.
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Old 04-05-2013, 09:01 AM
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Well I just think you could buy both Cobb and jb4 n if you didn't like them both only take a small hit just because their are soooo many people that like and want them.
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  #41  
Old 04-05-2013, 09:35 AM
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On the path to a Dinan S3, the specified labor hrs is the real expense but I believe you get what you pay for, ie Dinan approved/backed installation. Indy shops or DIY'rs are also options but not sure if you still qualify for the Dinan warranty? And if not, frankly at that point I'd look to cheaper alternative tuners.

Last edited by daytrader; 04-05-2013 at 09:39 AM.
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  #42  
Old 04-05-2013, 09:35 AM
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Maybe the next go 'round. I'm just fine where I am now.

Although LSD would be nice now.
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  #43  
Old 04-05-2013, 09:38 AM
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Maybe the next go 'round. I'm just fine where I am now.

Although LSD would be nice now.
LSD seems to be the only thing you are missing, as the old saying goes "in for a penny, in for a pound"!
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Old 04-05-2013, 12:42 PM
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LSD seems to be the only thing you are missing, as the old saying goes "in for a penny, in for a pound"!
I have investigated and it's just a little more than I want to invest right now. To my surprise, apparently no one in Houston, not even the dealerships, will install an LSD unless you buy the Quaife or Wavetrac already installed in the housing so that all they do is swap out the housing. For those who might be interested, you can buy the "pre-installed" LSD at VAC Motorsports: http://store.vacmotorsports.com/vac-...px?Thread=True
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Last edited by LarkHouston; 04-05-2013 at 03:19 PM.
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  #45  
Old 04-05-2013, 05:45 PM
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.....And the PE is actually the BMW PE, which is much cheaper than the Dinan and by all accounts, better sounding.
Better sounding ie the PE has a louder and more aggressive sound over the Dinan FFE. The trouble with the PE is when you start to add cattless DPs ets and then have to deal with rasp and drone at this point the PE is now super load
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  #46  
Old 04-05-2013, 05:47 PM
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On the path to a Dinan S3, the specified labor hrs is the real expense but I believe you get what you pay for, ie Dinan approved/backed installation. Indy shops or DIY'rs are also options but not sure if you still qualify for the Dinan warranty? And if not, frankly at that point I'd look to cheaper alternative tuners.
If it is not installed by a Dinan authorized dealer there is NO warranty
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  #47  
Old 04-05-2013, 10:10 PM
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bear-avhistory bear-avhistory is offline
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Originally Posted by BuraQ View Post
Better sounding ie the PE has a louder and more aggressive sound over the Dinan FFE. The trouble with the PE is when you start to add cattless DPs ets and then have to deal with rasp and drone at this point the PE is now super load
Agree, the IS & PE exhausts are designed as part of an overall system, not as a stand-alone unit & the sound gets ugly with you take factory parts out of the system.
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  #48  
Old 04-05-2013, 10:14 PM
SuperTerp SuperTerp is offline
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So if I were to buy downpipes (normal ones not catlless) would the PE still sound worse than the FFE?
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Old 04-05-2013, 10:47 PM
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bear-avhistory bear-avhistory is offline
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The PE will sound different than it does now. Have no idea what the FFE sounds like so can't comment. Because I don't personally see, in my case, an advantage to a different muffler system I have gone with don't fix what ain't broken.

The updated software with 40% E85 will put me at 400whp mark which is about as far as I want to take the car. I don't do the weekly track thing anymore so my goals are different than a lot of the guys who do. I believe they are pretty much in line with a majority of the guys who want a quick low maintenance DD. If I was pushing further into the power curve I would be looking at intakes & exhausts but on the exhaust end Down Pipes are the key element.

You want to evacuate exhaust from the turbo outlet as quick as possible but you also need to keep gas velocity high down through the pipe system. Its very easy to go too big on the back end. Kind of like guys putting 1-7/8" headers on a small block when 1-3/4" will do just fine.
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Last edited by bear-avhistory; 04-05-2013 at 11:02 PM.
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  #50  
Old 04-05-2013, 10:53 PM
SuperTerp SuperTerp is offline
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Originally Posted by bear-avhistory View Post
The PE will sound different than it does now. Have no idea what the FFE sounds like so can't comment. Because I don't personally see, in my case, an advantage to a different muffler system I have gone with don't fix what ain't broken.
hmm I thought they were having a big discount on the PE wonder if thats still going on
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