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X5 E70 (2007 - 2013)
E70 BMW X5 produced between 2007 and 2013. Discuss the E70 X5 with other BMW owners here.

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  #1  
Old 04-18-2013, 10:42 AM
ddeliber ddeliber is online now
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Thoughts on "manufacturers vehicles"

I am helping a friend research getting an X5, she has a 2002 and still loves it, but pretty much everything is leaking and it looks like it is time for a replacement. She doesn't know much about cars so I wanted to help her out.

She is looking to go used (hopefully CPO) and I was wondering what do you think about "manufacturers vehicles"? There are some really nicely priced 12s and even 13s out there with about 10-15kmi that are technically new (for warranty purposes I guess). Are these BMW executive cars or were they run to the ground at the performance institute (or whatever it is called)? Any other possibilities?

Are there any issues/risks with buying/owning one? I heard something about issues with extending the warranty or getting them certified, is this true and if so is it true for all of em?

Thanks
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  #2  
Old 04-18-2013, 12:31 PM
ard ard is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ddeliber View Post
I am helping a friend research getting an X5, she has a 2002 and still loves it, but pretty much everything is leaking and it looks like it is time for a replacement. She doesn't know much about cars so I wanted to help her out.

She is looking to go used (hopefully CPO) and I was wondering what do you think about "manufacturers vehicles"? There are some really nicely priced 12s and even 13s out there with about 10-15kmi that are technically new (for warranty purposes I guess). Are these BMW executive cars or were they run to the ground at the performance institute (or whatever it is called)? Any other possibilities?

Are there any issues/risks with buying/owning one? I heard something about issues with extending the warranty or getting them certified, is this true and if so is it true for all of em?

Thanks
Are you saying the warranty will be 4/50 added to the current date and mileage????????

I'd never buy one of these...you will NEVER know what was done to them- never. if you ask you will be lied to...

I find it strange that people think buying a car that has never been titled, but with an unknown history of 15k miles, is somehow better than a used car.

Think 'technical virgin'

A
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  #3  
Old 04-18-2013, 12:43 PM
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quackbury quackbury is offline
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Could be a BMW executive vehicle, a service loaner, the vehicle the Dealership Principal's wife drove to the country club.... or the vehicle the Principal's 17 year-old son thrashed daily on his way to and from school. (It could also have been a press pool car which is even worse: the 24 year-old "auto journalist" doesn't need to worry about p*ssing off his dad when he flogs the car).

The only good news is you know it is not a salvage title or a trade assist (lemon). But other than that, it's a crap shoot. I would take a lease return over a "manufacturer's vehicle" any day.
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  #4  
Old 04-18-2013, 12:49 PM
Kar Don Kar Don is offline
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"brass hats" is what these cars are called. Avoid them, I had one and test drove another and had nothing but issues with mine. Service loaners are titled as well as BMW employee lease cars.
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  #5  
Old 04-18-2013, 02:17 PM
ddeliber ddeliber is online now
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Originally Posted by ard View Post
Are you saying the warranty will be 4/50 added to the current date and mileage????????

I'd never buy one of these...you will NEVER know what was done to them- never. if you ask you will be lied to...

I find it strange that people think buying a car that has never been titled, but with an unknown history of 15k miles, is somehow better than a used car.

Think 'technical virgin'

A
Thanks for the opinion. I believe (but am not sure) that the warranty is 4 yrs from purchase but totaling 50k. I would think that one would also never really know what was done to most used cars on a lot.

Never said that I though that this car was better than any car, just wanted to know what was up with them. There are a few of them at a dealership and priced very aggressively, which leads me to believe that there is something up with them. I agree that it will be difficult to get to the bottom of how a car was used but I am hoping that there is a way to ensure it wasn't used at the performance center.
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  #6  
Old 04-18-2013, 02:28 PM
ddeliber ddeliber is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kar Don View Post
"brass hats" is what these cars are called. Avoid them, I had one and test drove another and had nothing but issues with mine. Service loaners are titled as well as BMW employee lease cars.
"Brass hats"? I don't get it..

I actually helped someone buy a service loaner, it was not a "manufacturer vehicle" but I new it was a loaner before they bought it got it very cheap and worth the risk to them while under warranty/CPO. Anything owned by a dealer I believe will be titled. I am pretty sure these cars are owned by BMW NA. Now whether BMW NA uses them as service loaners, I have no idea.

I would personally consider a BMW employee vehicle on par with a lease return. Not sure about a press car though. Something from the performance center, no way. I heard, but have not confirmed in any way that you can't Certify or extend the warranty on a PC car. Anyone else hear anything about them?

What kind of issues did you have with yours?
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  #7  
Old 04-18-2013, 02:42 PM
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I asked Mike Renner at PC this question during a two day m school - as we were beating the daylights out of his fleet of M cars. Launching M3's, trying not to warp rotors, etc. Mike said when PC freshened up the retired fleet were sold but titled with PC disclosures. So you probably don't have to worry about that.

If the price were right I might take a chance. Couldn't be worse than a lease return. don't lease any more but when I did it wasn't pretty. Leasing is like buying sneakers.
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  #8  
Old 04-18-2013, 03:12 PM
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AutoUnion AutoUnion is offline
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run, not walk from those cars.

there's more than enough X5s out there
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  #9  
Old 04-18-2013, 03:12 PM
ard ard is offline
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If your friend has the money and skills to deal with any potential issues, then take the chance....

If the car can be CPOd AND IT PASSES A BODYWORK PPI, then it might be acceptable.
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  #10  
Old 04-19-2013, 10:20 AM
RockChips RockChips is offline
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If it was a service loaner, I would examine the paint for swirls. Many of the loaners I had were swirled to hell.
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  #11  
Old 04-21-2013, 06:21 PM
IlovedmyF10 IlovedmyF10 is offline
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Mfg Vehicle

Last fall I was looking at buying a new X5 5.0 but the dealer had a X5M on the lot for a suprisingly good price and very few miles. I was told it was a MFG demo. I thought it was too good to be true. After we signed the paperwork, the salesman shows me the paperwork (trying to be smug about what a good deal he gave me I guess) and I noticed the car was a demo at the M driving school. I thought WTF. The car was in meticulous shape and has been great ever since. However, after attending the classes myself and knowing what happens to these cars, I think they should disclose usage like that. A couple thousand miles on a track driven like a beast takes a huge toll on the vehicle. Also, even though mine was not titled as used, the warranty started long before I got it..

Love the car though. Its not quite like my older M3, but its awfully darn close and I can actually use it as a family car.
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  #12  
Old 04-21-2013, 08:50 PM
ard ard is offline
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Originally Posted by IlovedmyF10 View Post
After we signed the paperwork, the salesman shows me the paperwork (trying to be smug about what a good deal he gave me I guess) and I noticed the car was a demo at the M driving school. I thought WTF. .
Just FYI- as long as you had not driven the car off the dealer property, you could have refused the deal, signed or not. To consumate the contract you must take physical possession...which is why slimy salesmen will do virtually anything to get yuou to take a car home if there are issues, and "you can bring it back and we'll fix all that later".

I seem to recall the M driving demos as having a "55,000 mile" warranty expiration, at least they used to. That was a dead give away in the past.

Finally no M school car can be CPOd. Wonder why.....
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  #13  
Old 04-22-2013, 08:05 AM
RockChips RockChips is offline
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so when a car is driven hard, what parts are going to suffer?

Obviously rotors and pads, but those get replaced under warranty.
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  #14  
Old 04-22-2013, 08:15 AM
scar scar is offline
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As I said in post above, direct question while I was at PC M school got the direct answer that PC cars are clearly flagged as such when they freshen. Maybe I misheard or maybe the answer was insincere but it would sure be good to have a definitive answer on what happens to PC cars.

Anybody from BMW lurking out there to enlighten us?
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Current options:
2012 X5 50 Msport carbon/oyster (daily driver)
2007 328 XI Sportwagon (wife)
2003 M5 chiaretto/silverstone (only for fun)
2006 Suburban 2500 (last of the truly tough off road 'burbs)
2007 4Runner Sport (for tight places)
2002 Silverado 3500 pickup (mule)
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  #15  
Old 04-22-2013, 08:26 AM
ddeliber ddeliber is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ard View Post
Just FYI- as long as you had not driven the car off the dealer property, you could have refused the deal, signed or not. To consumate the contract you must take physical possession...which is why slimy salesmen will do virtually anything to get yuou to take a car home if there are issues, and "you can bring it back and we'll fix all that later".

I seem to recall the M driving demos as having a "55,000 mile" warranty expiration, at least they used to. That was a dead give away in the past.

Finally no M school car can be CPOd. Wonder why.....
This last bit about no CPO is what I heard as well. Where did you hear this and how sure are you of it. If BMW truly won't certify, will they extend the warranty? if not then it seems pretty obvious that BMW themselves believe that PC cars are vulnerable to something right?
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  #16  
Old 04-22-2013, 08:49 AM
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quackbury quackbury is offline
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Originally Posted by RockChips View Post
so when a car is driven hard, what parts are going to suffer?

Obviously rotors and pads, but those get replaced under warranty.
Rotors and pads are just the tip of the iceberg. Add to that transmissions, CV joints, differentials, transfer cases, and every single suspension piece, including bushings. I have not had the pleasure of attending an M School, but if the car is flogged before the oil is brought up to proper operating temperature, you are going to get engine wear on journals, camshafts, pistons, sleeves and rings.

And I don't think BMW engineers envisioned track cars being resold when they came up with the concept of "lifetime fills". How many times can you heat cycle tranny fluid and gearbox oil before it starts to break down?

I spent 10 years instructing for Mercedes in their dealership ride and drive program. And M-B did it right - we did not do parking lot gymkhanas, we drove Lime Rock, Pocono, Mid-Ohio, Charlotte, Daytona and others. It is safe to say we beat the snot out of those cars. Think hard down-shifts to break the rear end loose and slide the car entering Big Bend, or transitioning from the infield to the banking at Daytona.

To Mercedes credit, the cars they used in the program when straight to the crusher afterwards. MBUSA would not even allow them to be sold at auction, let alone through a dealership. I am really surprised BMWNA does not follow suit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by scar View Post
As I said in post above, direct question while I was at PC M school got the direct answer that PC cars are clearly flagged as such when they freshen. Maybe I misheard or maybe the answer was insincere but it would sure be good to have a definitive answer on what happens to PC cars.
As the OP stated in a follow-up post, he WAS told that the car had come from the Performance Center - but only AFTER he had signed the paperwork.
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Prior BMW's
2011 535ix MSport
2011 X5 35D
2008 ///M3 Vert
2008 X5 3.0
2007 X5 3.0
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  #17  
Old 04-22-2013, 09:50 AM
blue dragon blue dragon is offline
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I do not think the service loaner cars qualify as manufacturer cars. Even demos will not be sold by BMW NA as manufacturer cars.
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  #18  
Old 04-22-2013, 11:23 AM
UncleJ UncleJ is offline
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quack, a cynic might say that M-B crushed their cars because they knew the vehicles would not stand up to any further abuse and became structurally unsound. BMW of course has no such concerns they believe their cars are so well engineered and built that they can stand up to that sort of abuse unscathed. Yea, right.
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Old 04-22-2013, 12:27 PM
ard ard is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quackbury View Post
Rotors and pads are just the tip of the iceberg. Add to that transmissions, CV joints, differentials, transfer cases, and every single suspension piece, including bushings. I have not had the pleasure of attending an M School, but if the car is flogged before the oil is brought up to proper operating temperature, you are going to get engine wear on journals, camshafts, pistons, sleeves and rings. .
+1000

The abuse a car receives in 5k of track use can equal 50k of road use... and while acute failures will be warranted, the reduction in lifetime of these components becomes apparent at the 'end' of the lifecycle- when you have no warranty.

Once you've flogged these cars on the track, your calibration of "aggressive driving" will be reset. Sliding off road at 75mph, spinning the car off the asphalt, etc...
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Old 04-22-2013, 07:01 PM
scar scar is offline
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Originally Posted by quackbury View Post

As the OP stated in a follow-up post, he WAS told that the car had come from the Performance Center - but only AFTER he had signed the paperwork.
Look again. OP did not say that. Let's seek accuracy. I will call PC tomorrow and see if they will shed some light on this. It would be pretty amazing if BMW tried to slip these in to CPO. If I remember correctly the 2 day school I attended was about 5 grand and I came away thinking I got my money's worth in fun, skills and yes wear and tear. To say these cars were driven hard is a huge understatement. They were driven hard by guys making mistakes as they tried to learn where the edge is.

Paging any PC lurkers on this board: what happens to these cars?
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Scar (holdover from Audi phase 1991-2003)

Current options:
2012 X5 50 Msport carbon/oyster (daily driver)
2007 328 XI Sportwagon (wife)
2003 M5 chiaretto/silverstone (only for fun)
2006 Suburban 2500 (last of the truly tough off road 'burbs)
2007 4Runner Sport (for tight places)
2002 Silverado 3500 pickup (mule)
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  #21  
Old 04-22-2013, 08:26 PM
ddeliber ddeliber is online now
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Just to be clear, I never said that the car was from the PC, that was another poster about an M, I just know that it was listed as a "manufacturer vehicle". I am however curious about how BMW handles cars from the PC - are they documented, warranty, are they certifiable/can their warranties be extended etc.

Last edited by ddeliber; 04-22-2013 at 08:27 PM.
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  #22  
Old 05-24-2013, 08:44 PM
scar scar is offline
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Update. It appears the PC cars get farmed out to local dealers, perhaps just Greenville and Charlotte, with no title flags specific to performance center. So likely just manufacturers vehicle title like press cars and exec demos.

I base this conclusion on several phone conversations. I started by calling PC and ended up with multiple handoffs and call backs. All very nice but not overly forthcoming. I did finally get one gal who said she was "pretty sure" they went to local dealers. She knew of no special title flag or extended warranty.

Still didn't sound like definitive word so if any bmwna lurkers or Spartanburg area dealers on here please correct the foregoing.

I would not rule out a PC m5 if the price was heavily discounted. Never wild about e60 and my e39 is great but 10 years old now. Maybe I will call one of the local dealers and report back.
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Enjoy!

Scar (holdover from Audi phase 1991-2003)

Current options:
2012 X5 50 Msport carbon/oyster (daily driver)
2007 328 XI Sportwagon (wife)
2003 M5 chiaretto/silverstone (only for fun)
2006 Suburban 2500 (last of the truly tough off road 'burbs)
2007 4Runner Sport (for tight places)
2002 Silverado 3500 pickup (mule)
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  #23  
Old 05-24-2013, 09:12 PM
FredoinSF FredoinSF is offline
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I used to have a 2006 330i (E90) 6 speed that was a car mag long term loaner (European Car or something if I recall). I bought it as a CPO car at a little over 12 months old and 20k miles. I quickly took it to 80k miles before selling it and it was one of the best cars I ever had. It did everything right - loved it.

I just signed papers for a 2012 X5 35d with 11k miles on the clock earlier today - a BMW exec car from southern Cal. The car is flawless: not a scratch, perfect interior, and maybe too much equipment. I take delivery tomorrow and I look forward to many happy years and miles driving that car.
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