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F30 / F31 / F32 / F33 (2012 - current)
The sixth generation 3 series, chassis code F30. 2013 model year 328i and 335i sedans now in production. Read the F30 frequently asked question thread for all your basic question and dive into all the details in the ultimate F30 information thread.

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  #51  
Old 04-29-2013, 06:44 AM
HokieXDriver HokieXDriver is offline
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You only have to look at the review that the NY Times did of the Tesla S to know that auto journalists are not free of prejudices.
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  #52  
Old 04-29-2013, 07:01 AM
JoeFromPA JoeFromPA is offline
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I think the f30 is deserving of it's steering knocks. Perhaps fiddling with it enough would cure my prejudice, but a test drive of a sport line (with sport+ mode on) 328i led me to feel the steering was like a hyperactive dialed in computer game. I referred to it at the time as "go kart mode".

But this isn't the first time BMW messed up the 3-series steering. They did it, IIRC, in 2000 and public outcry led them to fix it.

You can have good steering with electric systems. Enough manufacturers have proven that now.
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  #53  
Old 04-29-2013, 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by LarryboysUDM View Post
The article said "Even with the optional suspension, body control falters."...what else could that be aside from DHP?

With steering comments such as "comparatively lazy", "light and vague on center", and "lifeless electrically assisted steering", I don't think BMW will sit on that for too long.

With only 1 point separating 1st and 2nd, that is not a convincing win. I would say CD is probably doing what it can to make BMW do something about non-responsive electric steering.
Yes, we've seen this before, they are sending a shot off the bow of BMW, in hopes they will fix the steering like in 2001.

How otherwise do you explain the Lexus and M Sport both getting a 9 for styling. Stevie Wonder the deciding vote?
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  #54  
Old 04-29-2013, 07:48 AM
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Originally Posted by JoeFromPA View Post
You can have good steering with electric systems. Enough manufacturers have proven that now.
But i've noticed reviews of the new 911, some reviews say it has great steering feel, others say it has none.

A coupe reviews of the M135i have said it has improved steering feel over the F30, hopefully that's true, it means BMW is working on the tuning.
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  #55  
Old 04-29-2013, 09:15 AM
JoeFromPA JoeFromPA is offline
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But i've noticed reviews of the new 911, some reviews say it has great steering feel, others say it has none.

A coupe reviews of the M135i have said it has improved steering feel over the F30, hopefully that's true, it means BMW is working on the tuning.
The new 911 is almost numb compared to a 1980 911 sc.

But compared to a 997 it's pretty good

I think it depends upon the reviewer's recent background.
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  #56  
Old 04-29-2013, 09:51 AM
dtc100 dtc100 is offline
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Originally Posted by JoeFromPA View Post
The new 911 is almost numb compared to a 1980 911 sc.

But compared to a 997 it's pretty good

I think it depends upon the reviewer's recent background.
I thought the one thing 997 has on the 991 is the steering feel because it is still hydraulic, the new 911 (991) is electric?

I feel the E90 steering every day how it connects to the pavement and the change of surface conditions. Don't know if electric steering will ever be able to duplicate the feel.

Last edited by dtc100; 04-29-2013 at 09:52 AM.
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  #57  
Old 04-29-2013, 10:42 AM
HokieXDriver HokieXDriver is offline
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I feel the E90 steering every day how it connects to the pavement and the change of surface conditions. Don't know if electric steering will ever be able to duplicate the feel.
Everyone said exactly the same thing when cars went from no power steering to hydraulic power steering. The Circle of Life, I guess.
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  #58  
Old 04-29-2013, 10:51 AM
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Of all the car magazines in the U.S., IMO Car and Driver is the best one. Some people can get pretty defensive, but the fact is that the newer BMWs have lousy steering and handling. These are the things they need to improve.
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  #59  
Old 04-29-2013, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeFromPA View Post
The new 911 is almost numb compared to a 1980 911 sc.

But compared to a 997 it's pretty good

I think it depends upon the reviewer's recent background.
That's weird, cause all the reviews say the 997 was better.

I can imagine a 1980 would have enormous steering feel. Cars started losing steering and road feel long before they invented electric steering. Even my ZHP feels a bit numb compared to the E36 - often the first warning of tire slip is when I feel the car rotating.
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  #60  
Old 04-29-2013, 11:23 AM
everettpa1 everettpa1 is offline
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BMW has purposefully evolved the 3 series into a bigger softer car with more appeal to new buyers who prize size over performance. BMW is smart enough to know the trade offs. My problem is BMW has jumped the shark to get on the green bandwagon. The whole efficient dynamics crap topped off with the ASS (perfect name for this BTW) is what drives decisions to go electric versus hydraulic on the steering front. Everybody is doing it I know. BMW is new at the green game and getting these fuel saving systems to work well takes years. Another example is the AH3 with its unsophisticated hand off between the gas and electric bits.

We are living in a CAFE world in which mainstream production cars will favor green over performance all the time. We are going to lose a lot of the things we have loved over the years like N/A V8s or even turbo V8s. These options will now be relegated to the exotics like AMG and M cars and will be terriblyexpensive. Thanks Obama.

Finally, it is clear that C/D has decided to rain on BMW's parade. No way the ATS is a better car than the 328. No friggin way. And now the Lexus IS350 is better than 335i. Again, no way, unless C/D wanted this outcome from the start and just rigged the numbers to get there. I think Lexus is making huge strides aside from styling but with that anemic 3.5L V6 under hood there is no GD way it is better than the 335i. Lexus is on my list for later when they get a proper engine in the GS350 F Sport and clean up the lines a bit, but until then, this is fantasy island if these cars are better than the 335i. Da plane, da plane!
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  #61  
Old 04-29-2013, 12:08 PM
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The 8 speed only comes on the rear-drive IS350 F Sport, which nobody will buy. No 8 speed for the IS250 or the AWD IS250 or IS350. One more example of the test being rigged.
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  #62  
Old 04-29-2013, 12:22 PM
MonkeyCMonkeyDo MonkeyCMonkeyDo is offline
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If you look at the points individually BMW wins. The only reason it "loses" is because of the completely subjective "fun to drive" category where they give the Lexus just enough points to overtake BMW. That is a category that is completely subjective as everyones definition is different. Comparing Ergonomics, fit and finish and performance can be quantified. They keep that final category so they can sway the vote the way they want.

At the end of the day it makes great points about all three cars but you need to actually review the individual category results to get a more quantifiable answer.
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  #63  
Old 04-29-2013, 02:05 PM
LegendsNeverDie LegendsNeverDie is offline
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You gotta love the excuses and people bashing C & D. Nobody had a problem with C & D reviewes when the pervious generations of the 3 series were often NOT the fastest but still came in the first place. Perfect example: http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...mparison-tests. The 330i here was behind the IS350 in acceleration but still won. I bet nobody had a problem with C & D then
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  #64  
Old 04-29-2013, 02:14 PM
Jamesonsviggen Jamesonsviggen is offline
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Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
You gotta love the excuses and people bashing C & D. Nobody had a problem with C & D reviewes when the pervious generations of the 3 series were often NOT the fastest but still came in the first place. Perfect example: http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...mparison-tests. The 330i here was behind the IS350 in acceleration but still won. I bet nobody had a problem with C & D then
A couple of my replies from the same topic on the other forum apply here:

Some seem to think that their E90's from years ago would step up to the latest competition and some how come out unscathed. I think that is a bit of a fantasy.

True, an '11 E90 335 might have had the slightly better steering feel, a bit less body roll, but then it would have faired worse in terms of interior comfort/accommodations and ride quality.

The competition is better. It's better than it was 5 years ago when the E90 was everyone's darling.

Also:

I have not driven the IS. It could out handle and out steer the f30, I mean people have been gunning for the 3 just as they softened it.

But the styling of the IS, ask 100 people and see the results. The ding for the 335 engine flexibility is also silly, might be more of a transmission thing.



So, I am no fanboi, I am fine with a particular car I drive not being chosen in a head to head. But fact is, SOME of the scoring in this test is downright wonky.
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  #65  
Old 04-29-2013, 02:27 PM
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What seems obvious is that the F30 is an improvement over the E90 in many respects, and perhaps a better overall car, but somewhat of a step backward in several areas that are important to a lot of people.

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  #66  
Old 04-29-2013, 02:32 PM
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What seems obvious is that the F30 is an improvement over the E90 in many respects, and perhaps a better overall car, but somewhat of a step backward in several areas that are important to a lot of people.

CA
Pretty much.

I liken it to a recipe.

You have 20 ingredients on the counter. The F30 has more of some, and those ingredients are important to a lot of people as defining the flavor. But it has less of others.

The steering and body roll are the ingredients for me, that I wish were amped up a bit. Granted, they are being fixed by myself via parts selection, but magazines and 99.9% of buyers do not know or care to do such a thing.
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  #67  
Old 04-29-2013, 02:36 PM
LegendsNeverDie LegendsNeverDie is offline
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Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
A couple of my replies from the same topic on the other forum apply here:

Some seem to think that their E90's from years ago would step up to the latest competition and some how come out unscathed. I think that is a bit of a fantasy.

True, an '11 E90 335 might have had the slightly better steering feel, a bit less body roll, but then it would have faired worse in terms of interior comfort/accommodations and ride quality.

The competition is better. It's better than it was 5 years ago when the E90 was everyone's darling.

Also:

I have not driven the IS. It could out handle and out steer the f30, I mean people have been gunning for the 3 just as they softened it.

But the styling of the IS, ask 100 people and see the results. The ding for the 335 engine flexibility is also silly, might be more of a transmission thing.



So, I am no fanboi, I am fine with a particular car I drive not being chosen in a head to head. But fact is, SOME of the scoring in this test is downright wonky.
I agree with you to a certain extent but C & D seems to think otherwise:
"Our grave concern here is that, with each new car it introduces, BMW seems to wrap more padding around the sensations and feel that make them great—while its competitors only zero in more tightly on those same attributes. (We’re convinced that the E90 would handily win a comparison test against the F30.)"

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...mw-328i-page-3
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  #68  
Old 04-29-2013, 02:41 PM
Jamesonsviggen Jamesonsviggen is offline
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Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
I agree with you to a certain extent but C & D seems to think otherwise:
"Our grave concern here is that, with each new car it introduces, BMW seems to wrap more padding around the sensations and feel that make them great-while its competitors only zero in more tightly on those same attributes. (We're convinced that the E90 would handily win a comparison test against the F30.)"

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...mw-328i-page-3
Great, but that's hyperbole. They also made those statements after being blown away by the ATS, do we know what they would say about the E90 after driving an ATS back to back? Nope. And that's the point.

They do not have the competing cars to test with them when they say that.

The F30 lost to the IS over handling/steering by a small margin. The E90 would then get points back for those and lose all over again for ride quality, interior space/trunk space, tech.
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Last edited by Jamesonsviggen; 04-29-2013 at 02:43 PM.
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  #69  
Old 04-29-2013, 02:43 PM
suneil suneil is offline
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Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
I agree with you to a certain extent but C & D seems to think otherwise:
"Our grave concern here is that, with each new car it introduces, BMW seems to wrap more padding around the sensations and feel that make them great—while its competitors only zero in more tightly on those same attributes. (We’re convinced that the E90 would handily win a comparison test against the F30.)"

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...mw-328i-page-3
I will annihilate any PPK E90 335i on the track. Yes I'm that confident that C&D is THAT full of ****...weight wise alone, favors the F30.
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  #70  
Old 04-29-2013, 02:45 PM
LegendsNeverDie LegendsNeverDie is offline
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I will annihilate any PPK E90 335i on the track. Yes I'm that confident that C&D is THAT full of ****...weight wise alone, favors the F30.
Calm down. I am not so sure the weight really favors the F30.
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  #71  
Old 04-29-2013, 02:50 PM
LegendsNeverDie LegendsNeverDie is offline
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Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
Great, but that's hyperbole. They also made those statements after being blown away by the ATS, do we know what they would say about the E90 after driving an ATS back to back? Nope. And that's the point.

They do not have the competing cars to test with them when they say that.

The F30 lost to the IS over handling/steering by a small margin. The E90 would then get points back for those and lose all over again for ride quality, interior space/trunk space, tech.
They said it, not me. I understand your point. A lot of these reviews are very subjective. I personally like C & D and I like the ATS the most, however unlike MT they seemed to like the other two more.
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  #72  
Old 04-29-2013, 02:53 PM
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Guys, please take this as constructive perplexity (like, you know, a honest WTF?!) and some constructive criticism - I'm not trolling.

Tile of the thread: "XYZ BMW does 0-60 in 4.6 sec !"

Car magazine scorecard for combined characteristics under "Chassis" (namely: performance, steering feel, brake feel, handling, ride) ... dead last.

Car magazine scorecard for "Fun to drive" ... dead last.

I would have expected to read about some yesteryear Camaro smoking everything in 0-60 and lacking in "Chassis" and "Fun to drive" (for crying out loud!) department. Not the BMW. Never. Especially the 3 series.

Yes, car magazines don't matter. Yes, car magazines are in business of selling copies, not doing car reviews and comparos. Yes, car magazines have an agenda. Yes, car magazines are farthest thing from being impartial and a source of good information about cars ... We done yet?

Good, then why in the world is the car magazine that was accused of being on BMW payroll more than any other AND whose staff drives 3 series more than any other car as a personal car ... why are they doing this then?
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  #73  
Old 04-29-2013, 03:10 PM
Jamesonsviggen Jamesonsviggen is offline
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They said it, not me. I understand your point. A lot of these reviews are very subjective. I personally like C & D and I like the ATS the most, however unlike MT they seemed to like the other two more.
I know they said it, and it's a bit silly as it's a bold statement to make considering they did not have an E90 there in the test, they had an ATS.

It's going around and around, this thread is about the 335 F30 vs ATS 3.6 vs the Is350. I am fine with the F30 losing, the scoring is suspect a bit. At the same time, it leaves the opportunity for some to chime in and make it out that the benchmark of years ago, the E90 would waltz right in and slay NEW '13 competition, and I am sorry, but that is fantasy. The E90 would have been knocked for something else instead.

I have never owned a car that was always the critics number 1 choice, from my Beretta, Saab 9000 Turbo, 300ZX(well, that car was pretty much LOVED by the pro's-but I had the NA), Viggen, Maxima SE(that was pretty well reviewed too), Jetta, CC, Viggen, E36/7 and now F30. I don't need that re-assurance basically.
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  #74  
Old 04-29-2013, 07:07 PM
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I think over time people will get used to the look of the new IS350 F sport, if not, Toyota apparently has a plan to speed up that process. Once people see this new 2014 4Runner all over the places, the IS350 F sport will look very modest in comparison:



Now notice I have not injected my personal opinion of the new styles, whether I like them or not is irrelevant. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Last edited by dtc100; 04-29-2013 at 07:10 PM.
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  #75  
Old 04-29-2013, 07:12 PM
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Whoa. That is profoundly ugly.
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