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E60 (2004 - 2010)
BMW 5-Series (E60 chassis) was first seen in the Unites States in the fall of 2003 with a 2004 Model Year designation. The E60 is now available as a 528i, 528xi, 535i, 535xi, 550i and a 535xi sports wagon! -- View the E60 Wiki

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  #76  
Old 07-03-2013, 09:42 PM
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kskane kskane is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grimma View Post
My car have 165000 km.( I dont know how many miles this corespond). I have never changed MAF. But I cleaned it 3000 km before. Before cleaning this flactuations have started to apear only when engine is hot. After cleaning it hapens from the begining. Also I found out that on our cars E60 M54 MAF have 5 wires which includes Intake Air Temperature. Also I noticed when temperature is colder engine works sometimes without this flactuation issue! I guess normally. But if out side is hot I have flactuations. This is very much temperature affected? I know it sounds crazy but that is my opinion. Also this weekend i will do intake vacuum tests to find out is there any vacuum leaks. I want to pressurise my intake manifold with lets say 5 psi and duck tape exhaust pipes and tube before MAF I want to check it useing his method. and also I found out in INPA EDIABAS there is live data for intake and exhaust cams angle in given moment of time and the requested DME values. If the difference is big between them than the Vanos seals are shot. I will post back my results.
Thanks grimma, do you know where in INPA is the live date of intake and exhaust? Does any of the images below show that information?

I found the following sections in the INPA to read the air flow, not sure what it means or does.

From the different pictures and my testing with INPA what I can see is below;
MAF Sensor Voltage at ignition (engine off) is 0.41V with 4kg/h and Air mass = 1.1 g/sec
MAF Sensor Voltage at engine on is 1.4V which comes down on 1.2V with 13kg/h and Air mass = 3.4 g/sec

From the reading above, and the images, can someone help me to diagnose how to test if the MAF sensor is functioning fine.
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  #77  
Old 07-03-2013, 09:44 PM
grimma grimma is offline
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Second uploaded photo (post 74) shows where you tell DME to cut signal to selected injector in INPA EDIABAS program. Car starts to work with strange sound! Tryed once with one E39.

Last edited by grimma; 07-03-2013 at 09:48 PM.
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  #78  
Old 07-03-2013, 09:55 PM
grimma grimma is offline
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Intake and exhaust cam values are not shown on this photos you uploaded in post 77. But in INPA when you select E60 m54 dme you need to find this digital/analog section and there you have some german words vanos something. I am sorry i dont have inpa with me i write from ipad and i am in train now. Screen is simple, there is intake and exhaust cam green bars which have some degree for angle not sure . One is for that given moment live data and other is what DME demands if I understanded it well. So you can compare it. I will post some link when I am able to.

Maf test needs to be done with DIS i think but i need some charger before doing this. iread that DIS testing can drain battery. There is some ocsiloscope of some sort.

Last edited by grimma; 07-03-2013 at 09:59 PM.
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  #79  
Old 07-06-2013, 08:44 AM
grimma grimma is offline
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I did some testing with vacuum gauge.also, I did pressurised intake system with engine off to 5-7 psi. I have some small vacuum leaks but cannot locate them exatcly where they are. You see there are very small quantity of unmesured air entering system, not enough to set the code but enough for dme to start adaptations all the time. This leaks are not there while cold, but they apear when engine is hot because materials expand/contract.

Next thing I want to do is to build a vacuum leak smoke machine. For this small leaks you guys can just forget carb cleaner and BS like that.
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  #80  
Old 07-06-2013, 08:44 AM
grimma grimma is offline
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I did some testing with vacuum gauge.also, I did pressurised intake system with engine off to 5-7 psi. I have some small vacuum leaks but cannot locate them exatcly where they are. You see there are very small quantity of unmesured air entering system, not enough to set the code but enough for dme to start adaptations all the time. This leaks are not there while cold, but they apear when engine is hot because materials expand/contract.

Next thing I want to do is to build a vacuum leak smoke machine. For this small leaks you guys can just forget carb cleaner and BS like that.
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  #81  
Old 07-06-2013, 10:30 AM
beibei650 beibei650 is offline
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Guys,

I have a 2009 528i and got it fixed last year under warranty. There is a bmw sib that addressed this issue. Took the car to the dealership and asked them to do the sib. They actually raised the rpm first and without success. Then they did the sib and vibration was gone. Have been driving it for one year without any problem. I'm attaching the sib FYI.
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File Type: pdf 2009-01-01-vibration-at-idle.pdf (72.5 KB, 273 views)
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  #82  
Old 07-07-2013, 12:00 AM
grimma grimma is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beibei650 View Post
Guys,

I have a 2009 528i and got it fixed last year under warranty. There is a bmw sib that addressed this issue. Took the car to the dealership and asked them to do the sib. They actually raised the rpm first and without success. Then they did the sib and vibration was gone. Have been driving it for one year without any problem. I'm attaching the sib FYI.
This is for N52 engines idle fix but we have M54 engines. Thank you anyway!
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  #83  
Old 07-07-2013, 05:41 AM
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kskane kskane is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beibei650 View Post
Guys,

I have a 2009 528i and got it fixed last year under warranty. There is a bmw sib that addressed this issue. Took the car to the dealership and asked them to do the sib. They actually raised the rpm first and without success. Then they did the sib and vibration was gone. Have been driving it for one year without any problem. I'm attaching the sib FYI.
@beibei650, thank you very much for posting this document, seems to be the exact problem we are having. May I know, where did you found this document "sib". I have TIS, ETK, DIS etc etc but never heard of SIB. Then again, life is a learning experience.


Quote:
Originally Posted by grimma View Post
This is for N52 engines idle fix but we have M54 engines. Thank you anyway!
@Grimma, buddy towards the end of the document it says it applicable for both M54 and N52 engine. Can this be the final solution we were looking for???

By the way, from the diagram, when I was doing my transmission oil change, I think I had to pull apart a metal bracket that was supporting the exhaust that looked similar. So not sure, if I did not tighten it enough.

Last edited by kskane; 07-07-2013 at 05:47 AM.
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  #84  
Old 07-07-2013, 02:17 PM
beibei650 beibei650 is offline
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[QUOTE=kskane;7695245]@beibei650, thank you very much for posting this document, seems to be the exact problem we are having. May I know, where did you found this document "sib". I have TIS, ETK, DIS etc etc but never heard of SIB. Then again, life is a learning experience.


I got it from ebscohost.com. My university has subscription to it, but if you need anything I can check it for you. The database has all the recalls, sibs and potential problems that are not covered by warranty.

I'm not sure this is the solution for M54, but the problem for my car was exactly the same as in the previous posts. Hope this helps.
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  #85  
Old 07-08-2013, 12:12 AM
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kskane kskane is offline
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Thanks beibei650, any chance you can look up for M54 engine issues similar to yours to see what you may find? I am going to check out those brackets anyway and see what I can find or tighten.
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  #86  
Old 07-09-2013, 09:57 PM
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kskane kskane is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kskane View Post
Thanks Cali Buk, this is of great help.

Anyone here know if this calibration can be done via DIS? or INPA? or Tool32? I am going to call my $tealer and check what they say.
Called the $tealer and he said yes they can do the 'fuel/air calibration' for A$200+, but he goes we better do a load test instead to check the problem. Basically the $tealer does not thinks 'fuel/air' calibration is the real cause and from beibei650, there is SIB for another vehicle with similar issue. So, I was planning on checking my metal straps holding the exhaust next week when I get a chance, but in the mean time, I wanted to revisit and request for the same question above, does anyone know if DIS,INPA, Tool32 can do fuel/air calibration on a M54 E60?
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  #87  
Old 07-20-2013, 02:54 AM
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kskane kskane is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beibei650 View Post
Guys,

I have a 2009 528i and got it fixed last year under warranty. There is a bmw sib that addressed this issue. Took the car to the dealership and asked them to do the sib. They actually raised the rpm first and without success. Then they did the sib and vibration was gone. Have been driving it for one year without any problem. I'm attaching the sib FYI.
From the attached SIB, my E60 with M54 seems to have the correct brackets, but the faulty Vibration Absorber or in other words, my car is suppose to have 83Hz, which I will try and inspect shortly.

Another questions which might be silly and I should have paid more attention in physics calls, what is the different between 32Hz and 83Hz vibration absorber anyway? Higher number better??? I am thinking no according to the BMW SIB

Last edited by kskane; 07-23-2013 at 06:01 PM.
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  #88  
Old 07-25-2013, 02:24 AM
grimma grimma is offline
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well, 32 Hz means it is capable to absorb vibes of 32 times in one second, and 83Hz - 83 times in one sec. I am not sure about this just a HINT.
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  #89  
Old 07-25-2013, 04:08 PM
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kskane kskane is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grimma View Post
well, 32 Hz means it is capable to absorb vibes of 32 times in one second, and 83Hz - 83 times in one sec. I am not sure about this just a HINT.
Thanks grimma, So I am wondering, why would BMW document to install lower Hz absorber to fix the issue with N52's?

BTW, have you checked your ICV while you did all the work on your car?
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  #90  
Old 07-26-2013, 03:02 PM
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kskane kskane is offline
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Further investigation update - I pulled out my ICV and it is half dead/working/on its way out. From my reading here from the good people, the ICV has three pins and should measure
PIN1 -> PIN2 = 20ohms (mine is 11)
PIN2 -> PIN3 = 20ohms (mine is 12)
PIN1 -> PIN3 = 40ohms (mine is 22)

Mine is just about half. There was dust in it, but it was not blocked, so I cleaned it. So, I am not sure if the ICV needs replacement or not? If anyone can shed some insight on this, that would help.

Now the most interesting part about the idle raise fix. After installation, I cleared out the engine adaptation and started the Car (which was still hot/normal temp), much to my surprise the Idle was dead silent solid and I checked the idle speed it was nearly 790-820rpm. But, while I was getting all excited, the idle slowly went down to 650rpm and bang the vibration was back. So, upon clearing the adaptation the vibration was gone for few minutes but once the ECU starts learning all its AI from other parts, it goes back to old issue. Definitely points to an electrical part affecting the idle or engine load. Is it ICV? I am not 100% sure, as it could be MAF.

So, for all the guys having this issue, you may want to try and clean your ICV and measure the value.
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  #91  
Old 07-29-2013, 02:11 AM
krbimmer krbimmer is offline
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Let me share similar case of my E60 528i LCI 2007 N52K 78000km.
The SIB vibration-at-idle.pdf from beibei650 was good to me.
I got same vibration noise from steering column, dash board and floor at idling time.
My solution was two, one is to remove front pipe bracket(7 521 347) completely and another one is to change the transmission oil.
My indi mechanic said it's ok without that bracket .
At that time, my car had oil leakage from transmission oil pan.
I had suspected that the transmission mal function cause that vibration, then it move to bracket, then to steering column.
-no higher adjustment of idling speed, it might result in fuel consumption decrease.
After correct transmission oil level adjustment, the vibration was almost gone, not 100%.
PS: GA6HP19Z automatic & ZF LifeGuardFluid 6

Last edited by krbimmer; 07-29-2013 at 05:17 PM.
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  #92  
Old 07-29-2013, 09:00 PM
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kskane kskane is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grimma View Post
Intake and exhaust cam values are not shown on this photos you uploaded in post 77. But in INPA when you select E60 m54 dme you need to find this digital/analog section and there you have some german words vanos something. I am sorry i dont have inpa with me i write from ipad and i am in train now. Screen is simple, there is intake and exhaust cam green bars which have some degree for angle not sure . One is for that given moment live data and other is what DME demands if I understanded it well. So you can compare it. I will post some link when I am able to.

Maf test needs to be done with DIS i think but i need some charger before doing this. iread that DIS testing can drain battery. There is some ocsiloscope of some sort.
@grimma, do you know exactly where is this oscilloscope in DIS? I have v44 easyDIS and can't find anything. See below, I ran the diagnostic test called "Complaints" and it fixed the vibration for short time. After running that test, the car basically re-learnt new values and my Idle RPM was on 820, but after driving for 1+ hour, the idle crashed down to 650/660 again. So I am not sure what is going on........seems like the re-learning process worked but then some electrical part sent some values to computer and the IDLE was killed again. I am positive for the ICV to be the cause, but want to rule out the MAF. Also, is there a way to test the ICV because from my manual check, it is working half its strength (in DIS it is called Idle actuator), and I don't want to change it as the $tealer wants over $1000 for it and the cheapest part I can find is $500.
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Last edited by kskane; 07-29-2013 at 09:03 PM.
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  #93  
Old 07-29-2013, 09:54 PM
grimma grimma is offline
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Oh it is way to much expensive, in swiss here i can buy it for 250 CHF max. But I went to car demolition and bought one stole another one. Just for make test. I have three ICV now. Yes you can test it ,he have three pins and there is certian values he needs to give. Google it. I found it that way. Dont touch it inside with screw driver. I believe we have a really small vacuum leaks on our engines that could be found only with smoke machine. This is why I am making one. I should do some tests tomorrow. For dis i dont know . Maybe some other people would know. Some one told me that and i saw some procedure that includes dis oscilocope!? tryed to monitor your fuel trims with inpa on idle?
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  #94  
Old 07-29-2013, 10:02 PM
grimma grimma is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kskane View Post
Thanks grimma, So I am wondering, why would BMW document to install lower Hz absorber to fix the issue with N52's?

BTW, have you checked your ICV while you did all the work on your car?
Well it is not the same vibration 32 hz and 83hz. I does not say that 83 covers 32 . It is two difrent things. It is not suposed to cover all the spectrum of vibrations. Only few frequencys around 32 hz . No? Correct me of I am wrong.
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  #95  
Old 07-30-2013, 05:03 AM
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kskane kskane is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grimma View Post
Oh it is way to much expensive, in swiss here i can buy it for 250 CHF max. But I went to car demolition and bought one stole another one. Just for make test. I have three ICV now. Yes you can test it ,he have three pins and there is certian values he needs to give. Google it. I found it that way. Dont touch it inside with screw driver. I believe we have a really small vacuum leaks on our engines that could be found only with smoke machine. This is why I am making one. I should do some tests tomorrow. For dis i dont know . Maybe some other people would know. Some one told me that and i saw some procedure that includes dis oscilocope!? tryed to monitor your fuel trims with inpa on idle?
I already know what the pin measurement is suppose to be. If you have three ICV, then can you measure them all (appreciate if you can post your measurements) and then use the one that is the best. My readings and what it is suppose to be are below;
PIN1 -> PIN2 = 20ohms (mine is 11)
PIN2 -> PIN3 = 20ohms (mine is 12)
PIN1 -> PIN3 = 40ohms (mine is 22)

Quote:
Originally Posted by grimma View Post
Well it is not the same vibration 32 hz and 83hz. I does not say that 83 covers 32 . It is two difrent things. It is not suposed to cover all the spectrum of vibrations. Only few frequencys around 32 hz . No? Correct me of I am wrong.
To be honest, I have clue on this one.

Only GOD or BMW knows why two different Hz vibration absorbers. As far as I am concerned, the designers of BMW have a biggest challenge at hand every day, that is, how can we make this car more complicated, lets put the most twisted mind at word to design luxury for people to drive

I will be a happy man when I put an end to this problem by knowing the solution. I have read so many myths and the only one that most people say works is the Idle RPM increase, which is visible to them with there eye once the problem is gone. But what does a dealer do to achieve that is not clear, and I see my RPM are now sometime sitting on 820 and most times down on 650. Seems like it is following two sets of values and chooses to do so when ever it feels like. Perhaps, it senses my mood and selects it accordingly .

Last edited by kskane; 07-30-2013 at 05:10 AM.
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  #96  
Old 07-30-2013, 08:54 AM
grimma grimma is offline
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Well i tested all three. They had lets say same values 20 ohms 20 ohms 40 ohms. 0.1 ohm up or down. Tryed all three. It worked same which gives me a clue that ICV is not a problem. I think your car works 820 rpm when started because of diffrent maps then and after when it sits to 600-ish. I would check with inpa fuel trims though. Lets say you have a really small intake vacuum leak. Small enough that does not sets a fault code. Engine will always try to adapt the fact that oxygen sensor telling dme that there is more unburnt oxygen level in exhaust gases than it suposed to be. Dme will than try to correct this by correcting air/fuel mixture. Which results in slight rpm pointer diping and slight vibration while this is in progres. And to add to all of this maf which needs to give info about air temperature and air flow- all this can be tricky. Add also he fact that hoses on engine contract/expand with change of temperature a small gap can be produced where false air will enter system unseen by maf. This is why I am building my homemade smoke machine. I want to smoke my intake to see where is this problem. I will let you know when I find out anything.
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  #97  
Old 07-30-2013, 09:49 AM
bimmerfan52 bimmerfan52 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kskane View Post
I already know what the pin measurement is suppose to be. If you have three ICV, then can you measure them all (appreciate if you can post your measurements) and then use the one that is the best. My readings and what it is suppose to be are below;
PIN1 -> PIN2 = 20ohms (mine is 11)
PIN2 -> PIN3 = 20ohms (mine is 12)
PIN1 -> PIN3 = 40ohms (mine is 22)



To be honest, I have clue on this one.

Only GOD or BMW knows why two different Hz vibration absorbers. As far as I am concerned, the designers of BMW have a biggest challenge at hand every day, that is, how can we make this car more complicated, lets put the most twisted mind at word to design luxury for people to drive

I will be a happy man when I put an end to this problem by knowing the solution. I have read so many myths and the only one that most people say works is the Idle RPM increase, which is visible to them with there eye once the problem is gone. But what does a dealer do to achieve that is not clear, and I see my RPM are now sometime sitting on 820 and most times down on 650. Seems like it is following two sets of values and chooses to do so when ever it feels like. Perhaps, it senses my mood and selects it accordingly .
Oi Mate,

I know this idle thing is driving you nuts and I wish I could help.

Just to let you know your last two paragraphs made my day. I laughed until my side hurt.

I agree, they hire masochists for engineers at BMW.

Cheers
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  #98  
Old 07-30-2013, 03:39 PM
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kskane kskane is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bimmerfan52 View Post
Oi Mate,

I know this idle thing is driving you nuts and I wish I could help.

Just to let you know your last two paragraphs made my day. I laughed until my side hurt.

I agree, they hire masochists for engineers at BMW.

Cheers
Hey Mate, very true about those masochists and by 2020, the 5 series will automatically read your mind. How? Because the moment you transfer ownership paper and you sit in the car for the first time, the driver seat will inject and extract blood sample out from the owner's (((beeeeeeep))) to Artificially train itself to read the owner's mind. This is the latest $hyte they could possibly be working on right now.

But little do they know, they have already achieved this with my car, which follows two different Idle RPM's at this moment and one day when the problem is fixed, I will to one of the common and most difficult problem to fix on these cars.

Talking of which, for now I am set on replacing the ICV, Fuel Injectors, MAF (in that specific order as those are the parts that control the Idle) in due course as money is bit tight and parts in AU are sky high.
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  #99  
Old 07-30-2013, 04:19 PM
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kskane kskane is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grimma View Post
Well i tested all three. They had lets say same values 20 ohms 20 ohms 40 ohms. 0.1 ohm up or down. Tryed all three. It worked same which gives me a clue that ICV is not a problem. I think your car works 820 rpm when started because of diffrent maps then and after when it sits to 600-ish. I would check with inpa fuel trims though. Lets say you have a really small intake vacuum leak. Small enough that does not sets a fault code. Engine will always try to adapt the fact that oxygen sensor telling dme that there is more unburnt oxygen level in exhaust gases than it suposed to be. Dme will than try to correct this by correcting air/fuel mixture. Which results in slight rpm pointer diping and slight vibration while this is in progres. And to add to all of this maf which needs to give info about air temperature and air flow- all this can be tricky. Add also he fact that hoses on engine contract/expand with change of temperature a small gap can be produced where false air will enter system unseen by maf. This is why I am building my homemade smoke machine. I want to smoke my intake to see where is this problem. I will let you know when I find out anything.
Thanks grimma to confirm the three ICV's are on 20/20/40. All, I know is that if you turn the AC on or put the car in D / R and if the RPMs fluctuate downwards, then it is the ICV. Also, the ICV set points are +/- 0.2, so any more variance, the ICV is out.

Lets see how your vacuum theory goes, good luck with your home build machine . Is it easy to make one? Also, is it possible to check for vacuum leak by spraying brake cleaning fluid?

Last edited by kskane; 07-30-2013 at 06:25 PM.
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  #100  
Old 09-03-2013, 05:34 AM
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kskane kskane is offline
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I noticed one more thing with this vibration, that is increases if I turn the steering when the car is stopped. Not sure if it is related to power steering pump now ......

Any more people out there with this issue and anyone has a fix?
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