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E90/E91/E92/E93 (2006 - 2013)
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  #1  
Old 05-16-2013, 11:57 PM
unrealii unrealii is offline
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Mild Grind on 6MT

Around 43k miles in feb BMW replaced my transmission, clutch and I paid for the flywheel. My car had difficulty shifting into gears as it felt like it was scratching in and out.

After BMW replaced the transmission, the clutch felt super light and had a very low engagement point. After a week, the engagement point moved up higher to finally, being at a good place. The clutch always felt a little spongy on the release. Also, when I hit the clutch all the way down and shift gears, I would feel a mild grind as it seems one of the gears was spinning, but since the clutch has disengaged the power from the engine, the gear engages without much fuss. My local indy suggested I pump the hell out of the clutch before driving and that made a night and day difference - gears would engage without much effort or fuss. However, over the span of a week or 2 the clutch seems to go back to the prior feeling.

I'm at 47k miles now and the sponginess is mostly gone. However I still feel the mild grind on occasion. If I come to a stop, hit the clutch and shift into 1st very quickly, the grind will intermittently occur. If I am at a roll, I will double clutch and blip the gas it can intermittently grind, but in most cases it will glide into 1st with no issues. Sometimes I feel a mild grind going into 2nd or 3rd. I noticed that if I slam the clutch down, this grind never occurs. I know the clutch is disengaging, but my gut tells me that it isn't disengaging quickly enough.

I took my car into the dealer 3 weeks ago, but they found nothing wrong. My SA suggested I come back and drive the car with the shop foreman. The SA also said the clutch should have been bled when the trans was done, but had no way to verify it.

When driving I am quite easy on the transmission. I double clutch and rev match my downshifts to keep things smooth. I heel toe downshifts while making turns to not upset the balance of the car. My upshifts are under 3-4k rpm unless merging onto a freeway.

Any thoughts or suggestions? Is this normal?
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Last edited by unrealii; 05-17-2013 at 12:07 AM.
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  #2  
Old 05-17-2013, 04:52 AM
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thekurgan thekurgan is offline
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You don't need to double clutch these transmissions, that's one thing. Does the vehicle have the stock lock valve (CDV) or has it been removed/replaced with a hollowed-out unit?
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  #3  
Old 05-17-2013, 06:12 AM
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CALWATERBOY CALWATERBOY is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unrealii View Post
....the clutch felt super light and had a very low engagement point. After a week, the engagement point moved up higher to finally, being at a good place. The clutch always felt a little spongy on the release. Also, when I hit the clutch all the way down and shift gears, I would feel a mild grind....

Spongy? Wut? NO SPONGE

Would you have a hydraulic clutch pedal? You know what to do.

Grind? NO GRIND

How're your syncros?

If necessary, manuals being simple beasts, you can take it apart & fix. Or you can take it to someone, but the old saw sings true: If you want it done right....


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Old 05-17-2013, 07:04 AM
unrealii unrealii is offline
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Re: Mild Grind on 6MT

Quote:
Originally Posted by thekurgan View Post
You don't need to double clutch these transmissions, that's one thing. Does the vehicle have the stock lock valve (CDV) or has it been removed/replaced with a hollowed-out unit?
Afaik, cdv is intact. I thought it just affects engagement, not disengagement where my problem lies. Is double clutching bad? It seems to make everything smoother which leads me to believing that it would make the transmission last longer.





Quote:
Originally Posted by CALWATERBOY View Post
Spongy? Wut? NO SPONGE

Would you have a hydraulic clutch pedal? You know what to do.

Grind? NO GRIND

How're your syncros?

If necessary, manuals being simple beasts, you can take it apart & fix. Or you can take it to someone, but the old saw sings true: If you want it done right....


Cal, trans is new. What are you saying I should do?


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  #5  
Old 05-17-2013, 07:16 AM
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thekurgan thekurgan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unrealii View Post
Afaik, cdv is intact. I thought it just affects engagement, not disengagement where my problem lies. Is double clutching bad? It seems to make everything smoother which leads me to believing that it would make the transmission last longer.
You should be able to rev match without double clutching, give the throttle a blip while the clutch pedal is depressed. I was just curious as to the cdv, if you weren't the original owner, maybe some other tinkering was done as well and/or the improper fluid was used at a change interval.
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Old 05-17-2013, 07:50 AM
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CALWATERBOY CALWATERBOY is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unrealii View Post
Cal, trans is new. What are you saying I should do?

Possibles:
  • Syncro prob, unlikely, new trans
  • Not giving syncros time to bring gears up to speed
  • Syncros not engaged fully before shift, gears not up to speed as result

Maybe mod your shift technique, try this 'n' that 'til ya got it smoothed out.
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  #7  
Old 05-17-2013, 08:24 AM
unrealii unrealii is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thekurgan View Post
You should be able to rev match without double clutching, give the throttle a blip while the clutch pedal is depressed. I was just curious as to the cdv, if you weren't the original owner, maybe some other tinkering was done as well and/or the improper fluid was used at a change interval.
Dealer flushed brake fluid in Janurary (1 month before trans replacement) per CBS. I have no idea if they touched the master/slave valves. I have been tempted just to pay in indy to bleed the clutch for my peace of mind. After my rear brakes were replaced in April the clutch felt different in a worse way for a few days before going back to how it is now.
I'll try rev matching without double clutching.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CALWATERBOY View Post
Possibles:
  • Syncro prob, unlikely, new trans
  • Not giving syncros time to bring gears up to speed
  • Syncros not engaged fully before shift, gears not up to speed as result

Maybe mod your shift technique, try this 'n' that 'til ya got it smoothed out.
Yeah, going to try changing technique. Before my trans was replaced, I didnt need to modify my technique.
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Old 05-17-2013, 08:29 AM
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thekurgan thekurgan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unrealii View Post
Dealer flushed brake fluid in Janurary (1 month before trans replacement) per CBS. I have no idea if they touched the master/slave valves. I have been tempted just to pay in indy to bleed the clutch for my peace of mind. After my rear brakes were replaced in April the clutch felt different in a worse way for a few days before going back to how it is now.
I'll try rev matching without double clutching.

Yeah, going to try changing technique. Before my trans was replaced, I didnt need to modify my technique.
I've always had great luck with a gravity bleed on the clutch, takes a bit longer, but it's worth it if you can find a good indy who will perform that type instead of using a pressure unit. Let us know how it works out.
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  #9  
Old 05-17-2013, 08:31 AM
ctuna ctuna is offline
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Clutch and brake fluid share the same fluid.

Clutch and brake fluid share the same fluid.
The reservoir has a divider but I don't think it separates the fluid totally .
Maybe they didn't bleed the clutch.
To smooth out a manual switch to Redline D6 Fluid.
Also you might consider a CDV valve delete mod.
What made the other transmission Fail?
Are you racing?

Last edited by ctuna; 05-17-2013 at 08:34 AM.
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  #10  
Old 05-17-2013, 10:46 AM
hondo402000 hondo402000 is offline
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I would bleed the clutch system
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  #11  
Old 05-17-2013, 11:05 AM
Lufthansa Lufthansa is offline
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Just out of curiosity - it appears your car was under warranty when the work was done. Why did you have to pay for the flywheel - or was that your choice because BMW didn't consider it as part of the problem?
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  #12  
Old 05-17-2013, 11:54 AM
unrealii unrealii is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thekurgan View Post
I've always had great luck with a gravity bleed on the clutch, takes a bit longer, but it's worth it if you can find a good indy who will perform that type instead of using a pressure unit. Let us know how it works out.
I'm going to try it. Came across this thread and the poster seems to have had the same issue I am having:
http://www.gencoupe.com/diy-do-yours...-bleeding.html
Quote:
Originally Posted by ctuna View Post
Clutch and brake fluid share the same fluid.
The reservoir has a divider but I don't think it separates the fluid totally .
Maybe they didn't bleed the clutch.
To smooth out a manual switch to Redline D6 Fluid.
Also you might consider a CDV valve delete mod.
What made the other transmission Fail?
Are you racing?
I'm still under the impression that the CDV affects just engaging the clutch. If it affects disengaging the clutch, then I'll consider it. I am trying keep changes to a minimum on this car.
I am guessing the dealer never bled it. The last SA I worked with said the tech should have done it when replacing the trans, so really wouldn't budge away from that theory.
The original transmission had some issues, 1-2 was difficult to engage, especially at high RPM shifts. Sometimes when jumping out of reverse into 1st, it would still be in reverse. I thought this was a BMW thing until realizing my new trans never did this. I had BMW look at the trans a year ago and they found nothing wrong. I paid an indy to change the fluid a few months after that. Around January, first 3 gears would scratch when going in an out. After taking it back in January and getting diagnosed, the dealer just said the transmission was faulty, didn't tell me what exactly triggered the warranty replacement.

I dont race.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hondo402000 View Post
I would bleed the clutch system
I've been thinking that is what I need to do. Trying to make sure I am not missing anything before I do this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lufthansa View Post
Just out of curiosity - it appears your car was under warranty when the work was done. Why did you have to pay for the flywheel - or was that your choice because BMW didn't consider it as part of the problem?
It was my choice. When they gave me the old flywheel, I glanced at it and it didn't look glazed. I have yet to measure the tolerances to know if it was faulty or not. Dealer flat out said they would not cover it and wasn't very helpful in me sourcing one since it wasn't part of the warranty repair. I went to their parts department on my own and ordered it then had my SA bill me for it when the warranty work was done.


Thanks for the all the help
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  #13  
Old 05-25-2013, 10:21 AM
unrealii unrealii is offline
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Some updates:
I've been driving without double clutching, just rev matching and shifts seem to be smoother.
Seems a bit odd to me that. I'm an engineer so I'm still trying to wrap my head around how that works.
rev matching > rev matching & double clutching

Anyways, I took it to my indy to do an end of warranty inspection in case I need to go back to the dealer for anything else.

He found these codes in the computer:
5DBD - brake system rear axle circuit, rear left: leakage or air
5DA7 - brake system: leakage or air
5DE3 - Brake pad wear: brake pads, rear axle

I had given him the go ahead to bleed the clutch but he ran out of time since its right before a holiday weekend. Back in April, I had wanted bmw to bleed the clutch on my dime, but once they said nothing was wrong, they closed out the service order before even giving me a chance to request them to bleed. Now I'm a bit frustrated that my car clutch hasn't been bled despite me willing to pay and bringing it in twice so far to two different places.

Odd thing is that the rear pads were replaced in January, then replaced again in April due to the CBS saying they were worn. Looks like I need a software update:

Also noticed when the car is in 3rd gear, and I mash the gas from 2.5k -> 4k rpm, the shifter moves back about 5mm if I abruptly let off the gas. This is amount of tolerance normal?
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Old 05-25-2013, 10:28 AM
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galahad05 galahad05 is offline
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When I get into my car later today I'll look at the 3rd gear play, post back here when I see whatever I see.

FYI, I drive an '07 6 speed stick.
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Old 05-25-2013, 10:39 AM
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thekurgan thekurgan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unrealii View Post
Some updates:
I've been driving without double clutching, just rev matching and shifts seem to be smoother.
Seems a bit odd to me that. I'm an engineer so I'm still trying to wrap my head around how that works.
rev matching > rev matching & double clutching

Anyways, I took it to my indy to do an end of warranty inspection in case I need to go back to the dealer for anything else.

He found these codes in the computer:
5DBD - brake system rear axle circuit, rear left: leakage or air
5DA7 - brake system: leakage or air
5DE3 - Brake pad wear: brake pads, rear axle

I had given him the go ahead to bleed the clutch but he ran out of time since its right before a holiday weekend. Back in April, I had wanted bmw to bleed the clutch on my dime, but once they said nothing was wrong, they closed out the service order before even giving me a chance to request them to bleed. Now I'm a bit frustrated that my car clutch hasn't been bled despite me willing to pay and bringing it in twice so far to two different places.

Odd thing is that the rear pads were replaced in January, then replaced again in April due to the CBS saying they were worn. Looks like I need a software update:

Also noticed when the car is in 3rd gear, and I mash the gas from 2.5k -> 4k rpm, the shifter moves back about 5mm if I abruptly let off the gas. This is amount of tolerance normal?
I believe the movement of the gear shift lever is due in part to the rubber transmission mount bushings and their inherent "give" when coming off the throttle. The double clutch issue comes form an era before synchronizers, it just isn't necessary in today's transmissions.
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