Welcome to Bimmerfest -- The #1 Online Community for BMW related information! Please enjoy the discussion forums below and share your experiences with the 200,000 current, new and past BMW owners. The forums are broken out by car model and into other special interest sections such as BMW European Delivery and a special forum to voice your questions to the many BMW dealers on the site to assist our members!

Please follow the links below to help get you started!

Go Back   Bimmerfest - BMW Forums > BMW Model Discussions > 5 Series > E60 (2004 - 2010)

E60 (2004 - 2010)
BMW 5-Series (E60 chassis) was first seen in the Unites States in the fall of 2003 with a 2004 Model Year designation. The E60 is now available as a 528i, 528xi, 535i, 535xi, 550i and a 535xi sports wagon! -- View the E60 Wiki

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 05-25-2013, 04:29 AM
hilltopsw hilltopsw is offline
Registered User
Location: USA
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 13
Mein Auto: 2007 BMW 525xi
Ceramic Brake Pad Stopping Distance Data?

My apologies, I had mistakenly posted this in the DIY forum (sorry... new guy!)... re-posting here. Thanks!
-----
I am familiar with all the pros and cons between ceramic and semi-metallic brake pads (i.e. cost, dust, performance, wear, etc.), however, I have not been able to find any concrete data regarding differences in stopping distances. Are there any specific field tests available that have been done that compare actual stopping distances between ceramic and other pad types? I find a lot of subjective "feels good", "feels the same", or "feels different" posts, but nothing concrete.

My car is completely stock and is driven in a spirited fashion on a part time basis and now needs front brake pad replacement. I will be replacing the rotors also. I love the prospect of less dust, however the possibility that I may loose x feet of stopping distance when compared to a stock OEM pads concerns me. I realize that from a stopping distance perspective, the "best" semi-metallic pad might perform better than the "best" ceramic pad (although still haven't seen the data!). So, from a trade-off perspective, my question is do the better ceramic pads perform as well or better than the stock OEM pads in terms of stopping distance?

I just joined the forum. This is my first post although the members here have posted much good advice for my various DIY projects in the past. Thank you all!
Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote
Advertisement
  #2  
Old 09-22-2013, 10:14 AM
hilltopsw hilltopsw is offline
Registered User
Location: USA
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 13
Mein Auto: 2007 BMW 525xi
Ceramic Brake Pad Stopping Distance Data?

Bump... no replies after all this time?

Now that I have replaced the front rotors and pads (w/ ceramic pad), I am now due to replace the rear. Given I have went with the ceramics, I can now join the "feels good", "less dust", "no noticeable difference in stopping distance"... however the stopping distance observation remains subjective.

Anyone aware of actual stopping distance tests that compare ceramic pads to other alternatives? Thanks.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 09-22-2013, 05:18 PM
Mortyk Mortyk is offline
Registered User
Location: CT
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 65
Send a message via ICQ to Mortyk
Mein Auto: 2010 535xi
My feeling is that if I stop just 1 foot quicker and that could mean the difference between paint dust or brake dust, I prefer to clean my wheels a little more often.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 09-22-2013, 10:08 PM
jager911 jager911 is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Easton PA
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 116
Mein Auto: Porsche 911, BMW 540
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mortyk View Post
My feeling is that if I stop just 1 foot quicker and that could mean the difference between paint dust or brake dust, I prefer to clean my wheels a little more often.
I need rear pads and briefly considered ceramics but I'm in the same camp here, a few feet could make the difference between stopping in time for that tractor trailer. Without published data, I won't compromise brakes and will have to deal with cleaning wheels more frequently. Anecdotal evidence indicates that ceramics don't have the initial bite of OEM. Perhaps Roundel or C&D could run an instrumented test.
__________________


'07 550i Titan Gray/black Dakota leather/anthracite bamboo/6MT/Sport/CWP/Logic 7/Comfort Access/Active Steering/NAV
'00 540i 6MT/Sport 237k+
'74 911 Carrera
'95 911
'02 Yukon
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 09-23-2013, 05:48 AM
Boland01 Boland01 is offline
Boland01
Location: Magnolia, TX
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 74
Mein Auto: 2010 535iX, 1996 328i
I have not changed the brakes on my car yet (only 24K miles) however I have on our Armada and Altima. Switching over I noticed no loss of braking power in either vehicle going from semi-metallic to ceramic pads. If anything the cars stopped faster. However, this could be due to old versus new pads too. The ceramics are quieter and you get a lot less visible brake dust. I've heard they last longer too although I have no complaints on the life of the ceramic pads either.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 09-23-2013, 06:01 AM
andymax andymax is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: North of Pittsburgh
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 101
Mein Auto: 08 535xi
You will not find "data". You will find marketing materials showing whatever they want to show. You want empirical data, which doesnt exist...especially on forums like these. It is common knowledge that ceramics were designed for noise and dust reduction. Sure, they'll stop the car just fine in 98% of your driving. The question is...what do YOU want? If less dust and noise outweighs the superior braking of semi-metallics then get the ceramics. Lots of guys on here are perfectly happy with them. Do a bit of research on these forums and you will find there are happy mediums. Lots of people are happy with Hawk HPS semi metallics, as they stop great AND reduce dust...a nice compromise. Other brands are said to do the same.

Good luck with your decision.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 09-23-2013, 01:03 PM
terrystu terrystu is offline
Its how I roll
Location: New Hampshire
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 254
Mein Auto: 1985 M635csi, 2008 535xit
I have no idea where you got the idea that ceramics were developed for "noise and dust reduction". They were originally developed to overcome the problems of heat buildup in severe stopping conditions, such as a high speed emergency stop from highway speeds. Ceramics have been very sucessful in this goal of minimizing brake fade, which in turn results in shorter stopping distances. The reduction of noise and dust came as a happy, but unintended side effect.
__________________
.
"Voters will always choose the beautiful lie over the uncomfortable truth"
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 09-23-2013, 02:59 PM
andymax andymax is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: North of Pittsburgh
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 101
Mein Auto: 08 535xi
You are absolutely right...and wrong. Yes, heat dissipation was of course a primary issue, but ceramics were designed once asbestos was deemed undesirable. To say Noise/Dust reduction was purely accidental is just wrong. The market would not bear a pad full of noise/dust just because it dissipates heat. You certainly have a point if we were discussing racing applications but not the general public's need for brakes.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 09-23-2013, 03:00 PM
Maini Maini is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: California
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 207
Mein Auto: 2010 BMW 535xi
I guessing that Ceramics will eat up the rotors quickly??? What rotors do u guys use.. I have been happy with Zimmermann so far
__________________
2010 535i xDrive AUTO
PDC, NAV, HUD, HD & SAT Radio, Premium Audio
Premium, Sport & Value Packages
Black Sapphire Metallic
Black Dakota Leather
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 09-24-2013, 08:54 AM
terrystu terrystu is offline
Its how I roll
Location: New Hampshire
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 254
Mein Auto: 1985 M635csi, 2008 535xit
Quote:
Originally Posted by andymax View Post
The market would not bear a pad full of noise/dust just because it dissipates heat.
If your supposition were true, semi-metallic pads would have disappeared from the marketplace long ago. I admit I am old enough to have been around when ceramic pads were under development. My father was a mechanical engineer, and in the journals and periodicals to which he subscribed, it was very clear that the engineering goal of ceramic pad development was to shorten stopping distances by reducing heat-induced brake fade. During the development and testing process, it was discovered that there were desirable side effects, such as noise and dust reduction.
These benefits were considered "icing on the cake", and eventually came to be seen as effective marketing tools to promote the idea to the general public.
__________________
.
"Voters will always choose the beautiful lie over the uncomfortable truth"
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 09-24-2013, 09:15 AM
rdorman rdorman is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Columbus Ohio
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 599
Mein Auto: 2000 imola red 740i Sport
Stopping distance and decelerations (measured in G's) did not change when I went from factory pads to Akebono Euro Ceramics. Measured with a G-Tech meter both with ABS engaged and disengaged. Feel did.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 09-24-2013, 10:49 AM
6ICEMAN9's Avatar
6ICEMAN9 6ICEMAN9 is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Wherever the USAF puts me, currently NC
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 265
Mein Auto: 08 550i
Quote:
Originally Posted by terrystu View Post
If your supposition were true, semi-metallic pads would have disappeared from the marketplace long ago. I admit I am old enough to have been around when ceramic pads were under development. My father was a mechanical engineer, and in the journals and periodicals to which he subscribed, it was very clear that the engineering goal of ceramic pad development was to shorten stopping distances by reducing heat-induced brake fade. During the development and testing process, it was discovered that there were desirable side effects, such as noise and dust reduction.
These benefits were considered "icing on the cake", and eventually came to be seen as effective marketing tools to promote the idea to the general public.
I would assume brake fade would be the biggest compliment of ceramic, and the desirable side effects like you stated.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 09-24-2013, 11:26 AM
rdorman rdorman is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Columbus Ohio
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 599
Mein Auto: 2000 imola red 740i Sport
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maini View Post
I guessing that Ceramics will eat up the rotors quickly??? What rotors do u guys use.. I have been happy with Zimmermann so far
They are in general very rotor friendly.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 09-24-2013, 11:50 AM
rdorman rdorman is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Columbus Ohio
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 599
Mein Auto: 2000 imola red 740i Sport
Lots of confusion out there on Ceramics. The where developed to eleminate Asbestos from the pad (which is also a form of Ceramic) suspended in an Organic Resin Matrix. They fall into three basic catagories: Ceramic NAO; Ceramic Metallic; Ceramic Composite. Ceramic Composite as the $10,000 brake options you see on exotics. The only real similarity between Ceramic Composites and the other two is they have Ceramic in the name! In the NAO's and Metallic Ceramic families the Ceramic is particulate size filler of the product. It does aid NVH (noise, vibration, harshness), friction stability (think panic stop), pad life (at 'low' temps say below 500F for NAO's) and of course dusting. Ceramic NAO was not developed to be a high temp, high fade pad which is where Semi-Metallics take the edge (all things are a compromise). Ceramic Composites on the other hand are a while different animal and can take temps neither of the other two could ever handle.

Still, that information is very generalized.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 09-30-2013, 08:47 PM
hilltopsw hilltopsw is offline
Registered User
Location: USA
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 13
Mein Auto: 2007 BMW 525xi
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdorman View Post
Lots of confusion out there on Ceramics. The where developed to eleminate Asbestos from the pad (which is also a form of Ceramic) suspended in an Organic Resin Matrix. They fall into three basic catagories: Ceramic NAO; Ceramic Metallic; Ceramic Composite. Ceramic Composite as the $10,000 brake options you see on exotics. The only real similarity between Ceramic Composites and the other two is they have Ceramic in the name! In the NAO's and Metallic Ceramic families the Ceramic is particulate size filler of the product. It does aid NVH (noise, vibration, harshness), friction stability (think panic stop), pad life (at 'low' temps say below 500F for NAO's) and of course dusting. Ceramic NAO was not developed to be a high temp, high fade pad which is where Semi-Metallics take the edge (all things are a compromise). Ceramic Composites on the other hand are a while different animal and can take temps neither of the other two could ever handle.

Still, that information is very generalized.
Nice post. Now we know why we have marketing departments! For me, I'd love to know if I compromised in the panic stop performance when compared to stock OEM pads. Guess I'll never really know. Thanks.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 09-30-2013, 09:25 PM
hilltopsw hilltopsw is offline
Registered User
Location: USA
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 13
Mein Auto: 2007 BMW 525xi
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mortyk View Post
My feeling is that if I stop just 1 foot quicker and that could mean the difference between paint dust or brake dust, I prefer to clean my wheels a little more often.
I agree with your point and hence why I asked the question. Based upon my limited research, however I'm not convinced that relative performance across brake types is answered by a simple "this type is better". As others have eluded to a brake setup that performs well in a fade test or an initial bite test may not be the same that performs best in a panic stop test. In pursuing the "best" we have to know what we are measuring and what trade-offs we made. Without having real test data we just don't know.

Realizing that every choice is a compromise, ideally I would want to know if the ceramic choice I made is better or worse in terms of panic stops than the stock OEM pads that were on the car, not necessrily are they the "best" pads available, otherwise if I my only concern was having the absolute best braking system, I would likely be driving a Porsche or Ferrari!
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 10-01-2013, 08:43 AM
legend700's Avatar
legend700 legend700 is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: SC
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 585
Mein Auto: 2008 535i
As far as the brake system goes, I go with "BMW knows best" 100%. They manufacture the discs in their own factory and mate them generally with ATE and other high quality pads. I got into panic braking situations twice and was impressed with the effectiveness of the BMW brake systems. The first time in my 330i rag top entering I26 locally and the second time in my E60 on the winding Merritt Pkwy in CT. I fully trust the braking action in my cars, but I am actually a lot more concerned about who and what is driving behind me. I am more worried about being hit from behind than hitting something in front of me.
__________________

2008 535i Monaco Blue
PP, SP, SAT w/paddles, AS, CA, L7,
NAV, PDC, Heated F Seats, SIRIUS,
iPod+Aux, Bamboo Anthracite Trim,
Gray Dakota Leather
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 10-01-2013, 09:26 AM
rdorman rdorman is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Columbus Ohio
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 599
Mein Auto: 2000 imola red 740i Sport
Quote:
Originally Posted by hilltopsw View Post
Nice post. Now we know why we have marketing departments! For me, I'd love to know if I compromised in the panic stop performance when compared to stock OEM pads. Guess I'll never really know. Thanks.
Again in general, the Ceramic has the advantage in a panic stop because of their more linear coeficient of friction characteristics. They are easier to design for as well.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 10-01-2013, 09:28 AM
rdorman rdorman is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Columbus Ohio
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 599
Mein Auto: 2000 imola red 740i Sport
Quote:
Originally Posted by legend700 View Post
I am more worried about being hit from behind than hitting something in front of me.
Those are the ones that make me nervious as well!
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 10-01-2013, 02:36 PM
Damon54 Damon54 is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Dallas
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 359
Mein Auto: 545
Just realized I have 2 sets of front pads for an upcoming brake job.
One set of Mintex, one set of Axxis. Nearly decision time.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 10-01-2013, 07:42 PM
hilltopsw hilltopsw is offline
Registered User
Location: USA
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 13
Mein Auto: 2007 BMW 525xi
Quote:
Originally Posted by legend700 View Post
As far as the brake system goes, I go with "BMW knows best" 100%. They manufacture the discs in their own factory and mate them generally with ATE and other high quality pads. I got into panic braking situations twice and was impressed with the effectiveness of the BMW brake systems. The first time in my 330i rag top entering I26 locally and the second time in my E60 on the winding Merritt Pkwy in CT. I fully trust the braking action in my cars, but I am actually a lot more concerned about who and what is driving behind me. I am more worried about being hit from behind than hitting something in front of me.
Can't argue with your logic here. I've always appreciated the fine braking of the OEM car. I certainly wouldn't want to degrade this performance for less dust, but it appears that at least in terms of panic stops, this may not be an area of compromise for the consumer ceramics. Obviously not conclusive in any way.

Aahhh yes, the Merritt Parkway... I know it well. I've done a lot of driving between New England and Ohio and there is always a 50% chance the GPS will route me along the Merritt Pkwy. I must say CT is my least favorite part of the drive, especially I-95... lower speed limits, free for all across all highway lanes, left lane hogs, traffic, only two lanes to the east, sunset to the west, etc. Yes, in CT good brakes are mandatory!
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 10-01-2013, 08:13 PM
legend700's Avatar
legend700 legend700 is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: SC
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 585
Mein Auto: 2008 535i
Quote:
Originally Posted by hilltopsw View Post
...

Aahhh yes, the Merritt Parkway... I know it well. I've done a lot of driving between New England and Ohio and there is always a 50% chance the GPS will route me along the Merritt Pkwy. I must say CT is my least favorite part of the drive, especially I-95... lower speed limits, free for all across all highway lanes, left lane hogs, traffic, only two lanes to the east, sunset to the west, etc. Yes, in CT good brakes are mandatory!
I have lived in Fairfield Co. for years and was not bothered by the traffic situation there until I relocated South and returned to CT on vacation and family visits. I95 is the worst stretch of Interstate I know of, both by the condition of the road and the behavior of many drivers. Maybe driving with out-of-state plates brings out the worst in fellow travelers?
Getting back on topic: Whatever quality disks and pads you decide on buying, get them from a seller you trust. There is a lot of contraband stuff out there.
__________________

2008 535i Monaco Blue
PP, SP, SAT w/paddles, AS, CA, L7,
NAV, PDC, Heated F Seats, SIRIUS,
iPod+Aux, Bamboo Anthracite Trim,
Gray Dakota Leather
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 10-02-2013, 05:44 AM
Mortyk Mortyk is offline
Registered User
Location: CT
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 65
Send a message via ICQ to Mortyk
Mein Auto: 2010 535xi
I live in the Redding area so I know those roads pretty well as they are one of the 3 ways to NYC. I95 is usually the worst loaded with traffic. The Merritt usually moves 75-80 unless there is an accident or construction. It has also been re-blacktopped from the NY line to about New Canaan. You get many in the left lane doing 70 so you may have to go right to get around them. So brakes are an important consideration. The other choice is a little longer distance but is always clear and that is I684. By the way I find the cops here a little more tolerant in regards to speed. I think the worst is the Houston, TX area. You better not go over 1 mph there.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
brake job, brake pads, braking, ceramic, performace


Forum Navigation
Go Back   Bimmerfest - BMW Forums > BMW Model Discussions > 5 Series > E60 (2004 - 2010)
Today's Posts Search
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On



Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:06 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
© 2001-2011 performanceIX, Inc. All Rights Reserved .: guidelines .:. privacy .:. terms