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E36 (1991 - 1999)
The E36 chassis 3-Series BMW was a huge hit among driving enthusiasts from the first moment the car hit the pavement. The E36 won numerous awards over the years it was produced and is still a favorite of many BMW enthusiasts to this day! -- View the E36 Wiki

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  #26  
Old 09-28-2013, 03:15 PM
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southpark11235 southpark11235 is offline
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Originally Posted by andrew320i View Post
It's true, but here in Australia that engine is close to $10k... it's not a cost-effective power plant unfortunately.
It is not just Australia. The collectibility of the e30 M3 has driven the price of the car and engine way up passed their purely performance value. Installing a s14 in anything besides an e30 M3 is a wast of money and a s14.
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Alex//1999 323is - power e46 M3 seats, style 43 rims, 328 exhaust, Z3 rack, Bilstein PSS coilovers

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  #27  
Old 09-28-2013, 05:44 PM
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but what makes the s14 so great is in the flow of the head. the intake with the itb's help also, but without a free flowing head, itb's simply do not make much sense.

it's got the same head as the m88, just minus 2 cylinders.

has me thinking nasty thoughts about doing a build on an m4x with a supercharger mod....





df
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  #28  
Old 09-28-2013, 05:45 PM
bmw-mania bmw-mania is offline
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m54 bottom end..
crank, conrods, pistons..

200!! That sounds like GREAT fun!!! :thumbsup:
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  #29  
Old 09-28-2013, 06:20 PM
andrew320i andrew320i is offline
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Originally Posted by bmw-mania View Post
m54 bottom end..
crank, conrods, pistons..

200!! That sounds like GREAT fun!!! :thumbsup:
Yeah I reckon! It'd be a hectic sounding car as well as it swings through 7k RPM!
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  #30  
Old 09-28-2013, 06:27 PM
bmw-mania bmw-mania is offline
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WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

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  #31  
Old 09-29-2013, 05:34 AM
granlund granlund is offline
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Rotating assembly is crank, rods and pistons, effectively making the engine an M50B30. You will not get 200hp from the M50B20 with just a chip, cams and intake.

To continue on where I left off, for a high specific power (hp/liter), you need an oversquare engine. Large bore and short stroke. The 2.5 liter head has larger valves than the 2.0 liter. That is also one reason to use the block and head off an M50B25. The cams from the M50B20 has the same lift and duration, but more overlap than the B25 cams. Thus, they are better suited for high-rev power.

Last edited by granlund; 09-29-2013 at 06:31 AM.
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  #32  
Old 09-29-2013, 03:31 PM
andrew320i andrew320i is offline
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Originally Posted by granlund View Post
Rotating assembly is crank, rods and pistons, effectively making the engine an M50B30. You will not get 200hp from the M50B20 with just a chip, cams and intake.

To continue on where I left off, for a high specific power (hp/liter), you need an oversquare engine. Large bore and short stroke. The 2.5 liter head has larger valves than the 2.0 liter. That is also one reason to use the block and head off an M50B25. The cams from the M50B20 has the same lift and duration, but more overlap than the B25 cams. Thus, they are better suited for high-rev power.
I know I'm being stubborn, but I would like to keep it as 2.0 L (touring racing style), not a 2.2 L derived from a 2.5 L.

Before I listed out two options that I thought you basically had presented to me:

1. M50B20 block, crank, piston heads, rods with M50B25 (non-VANOS) head, valves, cams, intake plenum, DME, MAF
2. M50B25 (non-VANOS) block, piston heads, head, valves, cams, intake plenum, DME, MAF with M50B20 crank and rods

Option 1 is focusing on boosting max rpm, and Option 2 is focusing on boosting torque at a lower rpm that Option 1, right? I do prefer Option 1.
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  #33  
Old 09-29-2013, 06:56 PM
granlund granlund is offline
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I know I'm being stubborn, but I would like to keep it as 2.0 L (touring racing style), not a 2.2 L derived from a 2.5
In that case, I suggest saving money for an S14 or S42 which definitely will do the trick.

I'm doubtful if you can get the revs high enough to produce 100hp/liter with option 1. Do a calculation for yourself what specific torque you need to have to get a specific power.

In addition, take a look how many higher performance engines are oversquare. Or, as an alternative, try to find N/A performance engines that are undersquare.

Third, I'm also not sure if you can use the B25 head with larger valves on an 80mm bore block.

Last edited by granlund; 09-29-2013 at 06:59 PM.
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  #34  
Old 09-29-2013, 07:47 PM
andrew320i andrew320i is offline
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Originally Posted by granlund View Post
In that case, I suggest saving money for an S14 or S42 which definitely will do the trick.

I'm doubtful if you can get the revs high enough to produce 100hp/liter with option 1. Do a calculation for yourself what specific torque you need to have to get a specific power.

In addition, take a look how many higher performance engines are oversquare. Or, as an alternative, try to find N/A performance engines that are undersquare.

Third, I'm also not sure if you can use the B25 head with larger valves on an 80mm bore block.
Maybe I need to change my goals. With this, I think I actually care more about improving the performance of a M5xB20 to something quite impressive, than I do about having a car with 100 HP/L. Bit of a change of scope I suppose.

Let's say I work off a M50B20, are there much gains to be made with cam/head upgrades? Or would it just be about intake, chip, and exhaust?
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  #35  
Old 09-29-2013, 08:05 PM
granlund granlund is offline
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In all seriousness, there is not a whole lot you can do to increase power from your engine keeping it N/A without spending a lot of money. The first upgrade to consider in terms of kW/$ is a plug-n-play stock M50B25tu.
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  #36  
Old 09-29-2013, 08:56 PM
bmw-mania bmw-mania is offline
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+1 s14
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  #37  
Old 09-30-2013, 04:45 AM
andrew320i andrew320i is offline
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Originally Posted by granlund View Post
In all seriousness, there is not a whole lot you can do to increase power from your engine keeping it N/A without spending a lot of money. The first upgrade to consider in terms of kW/$ is a plug-n-play stock M50B25tu.
Sports chip seems to me to be the only one where cost to KW is decent, I agree everything else is really expensive for the boost you get.

This 2L touring project still interests me, but I think I'll put in on the shelf. Maybe one day if I have too much money I can take it up. Regardless, I don't want to significantly mod my car until I have a second car, a lot more cash, and a garage. Which probably isn't going to be in the next 6-12 months!

As I said earlier:

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Originally Posted by andrew320i View Post
Down the track I may get myself a 316i hatch, strip the guts out, then drop a M52B28 in it - you can get those for under $2k here, so pretty good bang for your buck. Would be quite a ride with that power/weight ratio!
That would be a much more cost effective performance boost - maybe 50% higher average power to weight ratio compared to what I have now. Car would be around 2-3k, engine around 1.5k, then probably another 1-1.5k for parts. So around 5k, and I reckon it'd have the performance of a ~10k BMW (for here in Aus). But definitely not the class!
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