Welcome to Bimmerfest -- The #1 Online Community for BMW related information! Please enjoy the discussion forums below and share your experiences with the 200,000 current, new and past BMW owners. The forums are broken out by car model and into other special interest sections such as BMW European Delivery and a special forum to voice your questions to the many BMW dealers on the site to assist our members!

Please follow the links below to help get you started!

Go Back   Bimmerfest - BMW Forums > BMW Model Discussions > 3 Series / 4 Series > E90/E91/E92/E93 (2006 - 2013)

E90/E91/E92/E93 (2006 - 2013)
The E9X is the 4th evolution of the BMW 3 series including a highly tuned twin turbo 335i variant pushing out 300hp and 300 ft. lbs. of torque. BMW continues to show that it sets the bar for true driving performance! -- View the E9X Wiki

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 06-20-2013, 09:44 AM
Nordic_Kat's Avatar
Nordic_Kat Nordic_Kat is offline
Omnia moderata ratione
Location: Texas
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 7,294
Mein Auto: Certified Garage Princess
Doing my homework before having new tires installed

The unfortunate appearance of a screw impaling itself in my right front tire has hastened replacing the tires on my E93.

I’ve done my homework and purchased the tires, but I have a couple of questions regarding balancing, and yes I’ve done my “search” but there is too much contradictory information on the intarwebs.

1) I’ve done the research regarding Hunter Road Force Balancing and my tire shop uses this technology, but if I’m planning on rotating my tires, should they be road balanced every time they are rotated? And yes – I know the BMW company line says don’t rotate and yes, my car is a square (not staggered) setup.
http://www.hunter.com/videos/index2.cfm?v=17&cat=3

2) With regard to wheel weights:
a) I presume they are going to ‘scrape’ the current wheel weights off before they start the balancing, or do they first see how the current weights behave? How do they detach adhesive wheel weights anyway?

b) I just finished detailing my wheels two weeks ago which included a nice healthy coat of Rejex. Is this going to make it difficult to get new wheel weights (presuming they need to add some) to adhere?


TIA-
__________________
If your sport doesn't put blood, dirt or grease under your fingernails,
then it's just a game.

Euro Modded|Split Armrest|Rear Foglight Mod|BMW Performance Exhaust|CDV Delete|Shark Fin Antenna Delete|Front Reflector Delete|LUX H8 Angel Eyes|328i|3 Pedals|Das Fahren im Freien| BMWCCA#445793
Reply With Quote
Advertisement
  #2  
Old 06-20-2013, 10:24 AM
thekurgan's Avatar
thekurgan thekurgan is offline
Bad Lieutenant
Location: Sacramento, CA
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 5,806
Mein Auto: S65B40 Powered
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordic_Kat View Post
The unfortunate appearance of a screw impaling itself in my right front tire has hastened replacing the tires on my E93.

I’ve done my homework and purchased the tires, but I have a couple of questions regarding balancing, and yes I’ve done my “search” but there is too much contradictory information on the intarwebs.

1) I’ve done the research regarding Hunter Road Force Balancing and my tire shop uses this technology, but if I’m planning on rotating my tires, should they be road balanced every time they are rotated? And yes – I know the BMW company line says don’t rotate and yes, my car is a square (not staggered) setup.
http://www.hunter.com/videos/index2.cfm?v=17&cat=3

2) With regard to wheel weights:
a) I presume they are going to ‘scrape’ the current wheel weights off before they start the balancing, or do they first see how the current weights behave? How do they detach adhesive wheel weights anyway?

b) I just finished detailing my wheels two weeks ago which included a nice healthy coat of Rejex. Is this going to make it difficult to get new wheel weights (presuming they need to add some) to adhere?


TIA-
#1 - I only re-balance yearly if I have a vibration, if square, absolutely rotate them.

#2 - I always have to ask, but honestly, they don't do the job that I would with 3M adhesive remover when I get home from the tire shop. 2b) possibly, you may want to mention that they use some alcohol before applying the weights; I've had weights fling off and I am betting it's from opti-coating them or perhaps the tech didn't clean the area first.
__________________

08 E90M3 6MT Alpinweiss/Schwartz/BMW Pedals/Dinan Exhaust
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 06-20-2013, 10:37 AM
Bemo's Avatar
Bemo Bemo is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Connecticut
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,024
Mein Auto: 2011 328xi
Doing my homework before having new tires installed

Have a full tank of gas, when you go in for the tire swap/balancing. Check the latest Roundel issue. I believe Mike Miller went into a great detail about the proper way of using the Hunter Road Force machine and some of the common mistakes made by techs that use the equipment.

Out of curiosity, what tires did you end up getting?


Sent from BimmerApp mobile app
__________________
2011 328xi
2011 535xi GT
BMW CCA
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 06-20-2013, 10:50 AM
bocabimmer's Avatar
bocabimmer bocabimmer is offline
Found the Search Button
Location: South Florida
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 671
Mein Auto: '06 E90 325i '07 E92 328i
Doing my homework before having new tires installed

Regarding the weights, yeah, I've had techs just peel the old ones off and leave the adhesive... Maybe that's better though because I could get it off gently rather than scraping it off with a screwdriver like they might have.


Sent from BimmerApp mobile app
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 06-20-2013, 12:01 PM
Nordic_Kat's Avatar
Nordic_Kat Nordic_Kat is offline
Omnia moderata ratione
Location: Texas
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 7,294
Mein Auto: Certified Garage Princess
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bemo View Post
Have a full tank of gas, when you go in for the tire swap/balancing. Check the latest Roundel issue. I believe Mike Miller went into a great detail about the proper way of using the Hunter Road Force machine and some of the common mistakes made by techs that use the equipment.

Out of curiosity, what tires did you end up getting?


Sent from BimmerApp mobile app
Thanks for the heads-up regarding the article in Roundel. Will need to make that my weekend reading assignment.

I decided to stick with the existing Conti ProContact RFTs. They seem to be a good fit with the car and my style of driving. I must say though, it was one of the hardest decisions, but ultimately not wanting to sacrifice what little trunk space I have plus the additional weight on an already heavy car factored heavily into the final decision to stay with RFTs. Then, it was just a matter of settling on which brand. I almost had myself sold on the Michelin MXM4 ZPs but the idea of likely only getting 15K out of them was a deal breaker.
__________________
If your sport doesn't put blood, dirt or grease under your fingernails,
then it's just a game.

Euro Modded|Split Armrest|Rear Foglight Mod|BMW Performance Exhaust|CDV Delete|Shark Fin Antenna Delete|Front Reflector Delete|LUX H8 Angel Eyes|328i|3 Pedals|Das Fahren im Freien| BMWCCA#445793
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 06-20-2013, 05:35 PM
Nordic_Kat's Avatar
Nordic_Kat Nordic_Kat is offline
Omnia moderata ratione
Location: Texas
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 7,294
Mein Auto: Certified Garage Princess
Quote:
Originally Posted by thekurgan View Post
#1 - I only re-balance yearly if I have a vibration, if square, absolutely rotate them.

#2 - I always have to ask, but honestly, they don't do the job that I would with 3M adhesive remover when I get home from the tire shop. 2b) possibly, you may want to mention that they use some alcohol before applying the weights; I've had weights fling off and I am betting it's from opti-coating them or perhaps the tech didn't clean the area first.
Thanks for the tips with regard to the 3M adhesive remover and alerting the installer to swab the area before applying the weight.


What I find interesting about the Hunter system, is that when the tires are new, they put the two "best" or most closely matched tires on the front of the car. But, if one is following a traditional rotation pattern with non-directional tires, that means at the first rotation, the optimum setup as determined by the road force balancing systems is now completely tossed out the window. This is why I ask if re-balancing the tires is an ongoing process during the life of the tires. This used to be much simpler.
__________________
If your sport doesn't put blood, dirt or grease under your fingernails,
then it's just a game.

Euro Modded|Split Armrest|Rear Foglight Mod|BMW Performance Exhaust|CDV Delete|Shark Fin Antenna Delete|Front Reflector Delete|LUX H8 Angel Eyes|328i|3 Pedals|Das Fahren im Freien| BMWCCA#445793
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 06-20-2013, 06:56 PM
pointandgo's Avatar
pointandgo pointandgo is offline
bimmerfest Supporting Member
Location: Los Angeles area
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 4,784
Mein Auto: '13 F10 535i (loaner)
[QUOTE=Nordic_Kat;7662975]The unfortunate appearance of a screw impaling itself in my right front tire has hastened replacing the tires on my E93.

I've done my homework and purchased the tires, but I have a couple of questions regarding balancing, and yes I've done my "search" but there is too much contradictory information on the intarwebs.

1) I've done the research regarding Hunter Road Force Balancing and my tire shop uses this technology, but if I'm planning on rotating my tires, should they be road balanced every time they are rotated? And yes – I know the BMW company line says don't rotate and yes, my car is a square (not staggered) setup.
http://www.hunter.com/videos/index2.cfm?v=17&cat=3

2) With regard to wheel weights:
a) I presume they are going to 'scrape' the current wheel weights off before they start the balancing, or do they first see how the current weights behave? How do they detach adhesive wheel weights anyway?

b) I just finished detailing my wheels two weeks ago which included a nice healthy coat of Rejex. Is this going to make it difficult to get new wheel weights (presuming they need to add some) to adhere?


TIA-[/QUOTE

The current wheel weights have a "gummy" adhesive and will (should) be removed with a specialized tool: a plastic "putty knife" that won't scratch the base of your wheels. Solvent will remove the goo remaining from the weights.

Since there's virtually no chance that the current weights are properly placed, they'll be stripped off.

Be sure to ask for a "print out" from the GSP machine so we'll know the "radial force" after final "balancing." Ask for TWO readings from the machine:
1. "total indicated reading" (TIR) per tire/wheel
2. 1st radial harmonic per tire/wheel assembly

Tires with the highest 1st radial harmonic should go on the rear, but this doesn't necessarily mean that they need to be rebalanced at rotation IMO.
__________________
F30 328i
E90 328i
E92 335i 6MT
E46 M3 6MT
E39 528i 5MT
MBz W140 S320
MBz W124 300E (slammed)
(unmentionables in between)
'71 AMC Javelin (4-Spd Stick on the floor)
'67 Pontiac Firebird 'cabrio' (1st car - "the leaker")
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Member: BMW CCA
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 06-20-2013, 07:14 PM
Nordic_Kat's Avatar
Nordic_Kat Nordic_Kat is offline
Omnia moderata ratione
Location: Texas
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 7,294
Mein Auto: Certified Garage Princess
Quote:
Originally Posted by pointandgo View Post
The current wheel weights have a "gummy" adhesive and will (should) be removed with a specialized tool: a plastic "putty knife" that won't scratch the base of your wheels. Solvent will remove the goo remaining from the weights.

Since there's virtually no chance that the current weights are properly placed, they'll be stripped off.

Be sure to ask for a "print out" from the GSP machine so we'll know the "radial force" after final "balancing." Ask for TWO readings from the machine:
1. "total indicated reading" (TIR) per tire/wheel
2. 1st radial harmonic per tire/wheel assembly

Tires with the highest 1st radial harmonic should go on the rear, but this doesn't necessarily mean that they need to be rebalanced at rotation IMO.
So how does it work after the first 7000 miles when it's time to rotate:

Is Rearward Cross or X-pattern the preferred way to go? And how does this impact the 1,2,3,4 positioning as determined by the initial Road force balancing? Or, conversely, does the initial road force balancing impact the rotational pattern? Now do you see my confusion?

One more question: I'm an analytical chemist. I routinely weigh things to 4 decimal places. What is the closest unit of measure used to balance tire/wheel assemblies? ie 1 oz, 0.1oz?
__________________
If your sport doesn't put blood, dirt or grease under your fingernails,
then it's just a game.

Euro Modded|Split Armrest|Rear Foglight Mod|BMW Performance Exhaust|CDV Delete|Shark Fin Antenna Delete|Front Reflector Delete|LUX H8 Angel Eyes|328i|3 Pedals|Das Fahren im Freien| BMWCCA#445793
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 06-20-2013, 07:39 PM
pointandgo's Avatar
pointandgo pointandgo is offline
bimmerfest Supporting Member
Location: Los Angeles area
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 4,784
Mein Auto: '13 F10 535i (loaner)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordic_Kat View Post
So how does it work after the first 7000 miles when it's time to rotate:

Is Rearward Cross or X-pattern the preferred way to go? And how does this impact the 1,2,3,4 positioning as determined by the initial Road force balancing? Or, conversely, does the initial road force balancing impact the rotational pattern? Now do you see my confusion?

One more question: I'm an analytical chemist. I routinely weigh things to 4 decimal places. What is the closest unit of measure used to balance tire/wheel assemblies? ie 1 oz, 0.1oz?
Your rotation pattern will be dictated by the tire tread design that you get, for example "modern" tread designs are "asymmetrical" intended to have one sidewall facing outwards. This limits your rotation options (Tire Rack's web site should show rotation options by tire tread type). I would stay away from "directional" tread designs. They're out of favor and tend to generate road noise as they wear.

You can consider a non-directional, non-asymmetrical tread design that would increase your rotation options, but I don't have a tire rec. in mind at the moment. I'm not opposed to 'X' type rotations (same wheel dimensions on all four), but opinions will vary on this.

As for the 1,2,3,4 positioning, I would keep the best tires on the the front, the best tire on the driver's side (LF), and "worst" tires on the passenger side overall.

If the "road force" results show very low "1st radial harmonics" for all tires (and the dealer can "match mount" specific tires to specific wheels to minimize RFV levels), I wouldn't worry about future rotation.
__________________
F30 328i
E90 328i
E92 335i 6MT
E46 M3 6MT
E39 528i 5MT
MBz W140 S320
MBz W124 300E (slammed)
(unmentionables in between)
'71 AMC Javelin (4-Spd Stick on the floor)
'67 Pontiac Firebird 'cabrio' (1st car - "the leaker")
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Member: BMW CCA
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 06-20-2013, 08:16 PM
floydarogers's Avatar
floydarogers floydarogers is offline
Pedant and Curmudgeon
Location: Renton, WA
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 3,616
Mein Auto: 335d, 328d, Toyota T100
Quote:
Originally Posted by pointandgo View Post
...
As for the 1,2,3,4 positioning, I would keep the best tires on the the front, the best tire on the driver's side (LF), and "worst" tires on the passenger side overall. ....
I'm curious about your reasoning on this. Tirerack recommends that new tires (the best) be placed on the rear, due to problems with severe over-steer caused by if the rear aqua-planes.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 06-20-2013, 08:21 PM
pointandgo's Avatar
pointandgo pointandgo is offline
bimmerfest Supporting Member
Location: Los Angeles area
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 4,784
Mein Auto: '13 F10 535i (loaner)
Quote:
Originally Posted by floydarogers View Post
I'm curious about your reasoning on this. Tirerack recommends that new tires (the best) be placed on the rear, due to problems with severe over-steer caused by if the rear aqua-planes.
That would apply when only two new tires are being fitted on a car, and has to do with the tread depth of the new tires being able to displace water -- resist hydroplaing -- better than more worn tires.
__________________
F30 328i
E90 328i
E92 335i 6MT
E46 M3 6MT
E39 528i 5MT
MBz W140 S320
MBz W124 300E (slammed)
(unmentionables in between)
'71 AMC Javelin (4-Spd Stick on the floor)
'67 Pontiac Firebird 'cabrio' (1st car - "the leaker")
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Member: BMW CCA
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 06-20-2013, 09:27 PM
floydarogers's Avatar
floydarogers floydarogers is offline
Pedant and Curmudgeon
Location: Renton, WA
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 3,616
Mein Auto: 335d, 328d, Toyota T100
Quote:
Originally Posted by pointandgo View Post
That would apply when only two new tires are being fitted on a car, and has to do with the tread depth of the new tires being able to displace water -- resist hydroplaing -- better than more worn tires.
Perhaps you should be more specific with what you mean by "best" tires. To me, it means deeper tread, worn fairly evenly. Of course, BMWs tend to wear the insides more than the center, and the fronts wear the outsides a bit more, too.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 06-21-2013, 04:53 AM
Nordic_Kat's Avatar
Nordic_Kat Nordic_Kat is offline
Omnia moderata ratione
Location: Texas
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 7,294
Mein Auto: Certified Garage Princess
Quote:
Originally Posted by floydarogers View Post
Perhaps you should be more specific with what you mean by "best" tires. To me, it means deeper tread, worn fairly evenly. Of course, BMWs tend to wear the insides more than the center, and the fronts wear the outsides a bit more, too.
The link I posted in my original post contains a video made by Hunter how the road force balancing process works. Essentially, the tires are matched with regard to weight, lateral forces and the two tires that best match are put on the front of the car, which is the context I think PNG was going for based on my question to him about the "1,2,3,4" positioning.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 06-21-2013, 06:07 AM
gpburdell gpburdell is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Atlanta
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 404
Mein Auto: 2010 335i Cabrio
Quote:
Originally Posted by pointandgo View Post
for example "modern" tread designs are "asymmetrical" intended to have one sidewall facing outwards. This limits your rotation options
How would which sidewall is facing outwards change when rotating tires? Only way that'd happen would be to dismount the tires from the rims.

Perhaps you're thinking of directional tires designed to rotate only in one direction? In those cases you do need to keep the tire on the same side of the car. No cross rotation to the other side.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 06-21-2013, 07:06 AM
thekurgan's Avatar
thekurgan thekurgan is offline
Bad Lieutenant
Location: Sacramento, CA
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 5,806
Mein Auto: S65B40 Powered
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordic_Kat View Post
Thanks for the tips with regard to the 3M adhesive remover and alerting the installer to swab the area before applying the weight.


What I find interesting about the Hunter system, is that when the tires are new, they put the two "best" or most closely matched tires on the front of the car. But, if one is following a traditional rotation pattern with non-directional tires, that means at the first rotation, the optimum setup as determined by the road force balancing systems is now completely tossed out the window. This is why I ask if re-balancing the tires is an ongoing process during the life of the tires. This used to be much simpler.
If you're placing with the same brand/size, and you got great service life from them (aside from the early termination of one), I would keep doing what you did with the original tires. I think using the best tires in the front, keeps the vibrations down and the rear wheel drive allows the non-best tires to break in without noticing the vibration. That's just my guess.

It's actually still simple, I think this board is grossly overcomplicating the matter.
__________________

08 E90M3 6MT Alpinweiss/Schwartz/BMW Pedals/Dinan Exhaust
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 06-21-2013, 07:11 AM
floydarogers's Avatar
floydarogers floydarogers is offline
Pedant and Curmudgeon
Location: Renton, WA
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 3,616
Mein Auto: 335d, 328d, Toyota T100
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordic_Kat View Post
The link I posted in my original post contains a video made by Hunter how the road force balancing process works. Essentially, the tires are matched with regard to weight, lateral forces and the two tires that best match are put on the front of the car, which is the context I think PNG was going for based on my question to him about the "1,2,3,4" positioning.
This is why I don't rotate anything but my snow tires (a square setup) - performance is measured a little differently on them, and a little vibration aren't so important ...
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 06-21-2013, 07:28 AM
laser's Avatar
laser laser is offline
now driving number eight!
Location: Atlanta
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 2,172
Mein Auto: 2007 S2000
Kat, you didn't ask this but it's worthwhile to have your tire shop look at the wear pattern on the 4 tires coming off and see if there is reason to have a 4 wheel alignment done along with the new tire mounting.
__________________
Laser

"sometimes you're the windshield .... sometimes you're the bug"
___________________________

2014 328i Mojave Metallic
2009 328i Black Sapphire Metallic
2007 328i Black Sapphire Metallic
2007 Honda S2000 Berlina Black
(Hey Jim... am I diversified?)
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 06-21-2013, 08:08 AM
Nordic_Kat's Avatar
Nordic_Kat Nordic_Kat is offline
Omnia moderata ratione
Location: Texas
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 7,294
Mein Auto: Certified Garage Princess
Quote:
Originally Posted by laser View Post
Kat, you didn't ask this but it's worthwhile to have your tire shop look at the wear pattern on the 4 tires coming off and see if there is reason to have a 4 wheel alignment done along with the new tire mounting.
Interesting that you mention this. I just got off the phone with the tire shop setting up the install appointment. They asked if I wanted an alignment done. As I just had one done last fall, I declined. They said they would at no charge run a check printout on it and see how it's doing.

Is this hype or real?
__________________
If your sport doesn't put blood, dirt or grease under your fingernails,
then it's just a game.

Euro Modded|Split Armrest|Rear Foglight Mod|BMW Performance Exhaust|CDV Delete|Shark Fin Antenna Delete|Front Reflector Delete|LUX H8 Angel Eyes|328i|3 Pedals|Das Fahren im Freien| BMWCCA#445793
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 06-21-2013, 08:49 AM
laser's Avatar
laser laser is offline
now driving number eight!
Location: Atlanta
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 2,172
Mein Auto: 2007 S2000
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordic_Kat View Post
Interesting that you mention this. I just got off the phone with the tire shop setting up the install appointment. They asked if I wanted an alignment done. As I just had one done last fall, I declined. They said they would at no charge run a check printout on it and see how it's doing.

Is this hype or real?
If no tire wear indicates and you just had one done last fall this sounds like the best path.

Hopefully Houston gumbo clay subsidence and the resulting potholes have "subsided" since my days there in the 80's.
__________________
Laser

"sometimes you're the windshield .... sometimes you're the bug"
___________________________

2014 328i Mojave Metallic
2009 328i Black Sapphire Metallic
2007 328i Black Sapphire Metallic
2007 Honda S2000 Berlina Black
(Hey Jim... am I diversified?)
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 06-21-2013, 08:53 AM
Nordic_Kat's Avatar
Nordic_Kat Nordic_Kat is offline
Omnia moderata ratione
Location: Texas
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 7,294
Mein Auto: Certified Garage Princess
Quote:
Originally Posted by laser View Post
If no tire wear indicates and you just had one done last fall this sounds like the best path.

Hopefully Houston gumbo clay subsidence and the resulting potholes have "subsided" since my days there in the 80's.
Still no lack of potholes. I just do inordinate planning to stay away from the streets that look like warzones. Of course, occasionally there is the surprise sink hole that opens up overnight.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 06-24-2013, 06:52 AM
tmdals0213 tmdals0213 is offline
Registered User
Location: amazon.com
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 18
Mein Auto: E93 335is 2013
wow, this post really enlightened me on the science of tire technology and made me more aware of how important tire care and tires are for safety. Great post OP! and thanks everyone for the awesome replies.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Forum Navigation
Go Back   Bimmerfest - BMW Forums > BMW Model Discussions > 3 Series / 4 Series > E90/E91/E92/E93 (2006 - 2013)
Today's Posts Search
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On



Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:27 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
© 2001-2011 performanceIX, Inc. All Rights Reserved .: guidelines .:. privacy .:. terms