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X5 E70 (2007 - 2013)
E70 BMW X5 produced between 2007 and 2013. Discuss the E70 X5 with other BMW owners here.

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  #1  
Old 07-04-2013, 11:36 PM
ard ard is offline
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Mein Auto: '12 X5 35d/E39M5/996TTX50
Lets talk EDR (Event Data Recorder)...remove, disable, or OK?

I dont like the idea of my property recording data on how it is used and making that data available to others at a future point in time. People like:

-Police
-Lawyers
-Insurers
-Onstar/BMW Assist
-BMW Technicians
-Auto Body Shops
-You, us, etc


Near as I can tell this sits on the X5 in the Bosch ACM (Airbag Control Module). It can be disabled by clipping the Vcc leg on the eeprom that records the data.


http://www.harristechnical.com/downloads/cdrlist.pdf

Yes, there are state laws about this, that range from "it is the owners data" to "you are guilt of a misdemeanor if you erase it"

and a whole lot of misconceptions and mis-information....


Thoughts? Who'd disable theirs if there was a DIY?

Or, who is comforted knowing their good driving habits are being documented?


A
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Last edited by ard; 07-04-2013 at 11:38 PM.
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  #2  
Old 07-05-2013, 08:54 AM
UncleJ UncleJ is offline
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Posts: 6,573
Mein Auto: '06 X3
I didn't see the X5,X3 on that list among the BMW iron, did I miss them? Do you know the CA position on tampering with this EDR? Personally I don't care if that info is available, since in my dotage I no longer do the things that I used to do that would be a problem. However if I were still running around in a 'vette, 'stang, Camero, Dodge SS, or Civic Si and 3 series then I would probably care a lot.

Last edited by UncleJ; 07-05-2013 at 08:58 AM.
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  #3  
Old 07-05-2013, 10:08 AM
ductman's Avatar
ductman ductman is offline
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Location: Eastern Pa
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
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Mein Auto: 2011 X5 35D /2011 M37X
Quote:
Originally Posted by ard View Post
I dont like the idea of my property recording data on how it is used and making that data available to others at a future point in time. People like:

-Police
-Lawyers
-Insurers
-Onstar/BMW Assist
-BMW Technicians
-Auto Body Shops
-You, us, etc


Near as I can tell this sits on the X5 in the Bosch ACM (Airbag Control Module). It can be disabled by clipping the Vcc leg on the eeprom that records the data.


http://www.harristechnical.com/downloads/cdrlist.pdf

Yes, there are state laws about this, that range from "it is the owners data" to "you are guilt of a misdemeanor if you erase it"

and a whole lot of misconceptions and mis-information....


Thoughts? Who'd disable theirs if there was a DIY?

Or, who is comforted knowing their good driving habits are being documented?


A
My main concern is that all insurance companies will someday look to make Progressives Insurance Snapshot,option mandatory, Imagine that , your insurance rates tied to an evasive maneuver even though it was necessary to avoid an accident , people out this way have this fear of EZ Pass , too fast between toll plazas equals tickets .
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  #4  
Old 07-05-2013, 10:26 AM
ard ard is offline
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Mein Auto: '12 X5 35d/E39M5/996TTX50
The x5 has one, not sure if it is osch or not. As I recall the Owners manual does have that disclosure.


California law has no restrictions on what you do with you personal data (yet)

Ref. http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/di...file=9950-9955

Finally, for me, the sentiment you proposed seems to be..

"I dont drive crazy so I dont care who has that information"
"If you have nothing to hide, why not let the police search your home"

Again, this is YOUR car, YOUR property- would we allow the police (or an insurnace company) install a video camera in each room of your home,. and make it illegal to turn it off? Would people ust shrug and say "I dont do anything crazy these days"?

1984, right?

Interestingly, it seems so odd how we got here. Airbags. These systems use this AS IT STREAMS IN to make decisions. Someone decided to capture snapshots of the data to protect agaisnt liability of the manufacturer when an airbag is activated (or not) after/during a crash...and now we have recorders in virtually every car with an airbag.

I will also admit, there is a flip side: you are in an accident and you are innocent- the EDR proves it. For me my privacy would trump this potential benefit, for me.


A
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  #5  
Old 07-05-2013, 10:35 AM
ard ard is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ductman View Post
My main concern is that all insurance companies will someday look to make Progressives Insurance Snapshot,option mandatory, Imagine that , your insurance rates tied to an evasive maneuver even though it was necessary to avoid an accident , people out this way have this fear of EZ Pass , too fast between toll plazas equals tickets .
Bingo.

Or they rate you based on RPM, or acceleration...and not any violation of law. Average speed.

That OBD dongle ('snapshot') would be easy to spoof, and you could tamper with it and not screw with your car.

But once they reach into your property and force you to, essentially 'testify' against yourself' ..that causes me concern.
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  #6  
Old 07-05-2013, 10:55 AM
brian5 brian5 is offline
nothing today
Location: Connecticut
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
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Mein Auto: 08 X5 4.8i
ard,

Allstate have given me heads up that "In the Winter, Allstate will be introducing a small chip you plug into the car that will track total miles driven and other driving habits. This can give you a discount 0 - 20%. This system will be optional."

There is no way that I want that in my X5. I wouldn't mind having it in the SUV that my 17-year old drives though...
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  #7  
Old 07-05-2013, 12:12 PM
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quackbury quackbury is offline
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Location: Not In Kansas Any More
 
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Mein Auto: 535i M Sport; 328i Wagon
I'd rather have a Go Pro on my dashboard documenting stuff, like the ones that are ubiquitous in Russia.

Wouldn't surprise me if Big Brother couldn't still track you after you deactivated the "bug", using your cell phone signal and/or whatever signal BMW Assist uses to help find your car if it's stolen.

Maybe I should follow a good friend's lead and get an AC Cobra for when I feel like shenanigans, and a 320i to drive like a little old lady the rest of the time...
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  #8  
Old 07-05-2013, 01:53 PM
UncleJ UncleJ is offline
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I see your point about the police searching your home at will. If you have been reading the headlines recently it appears that more and more of your "privacy" be being usurped by Uncle Striped Pants and his band of Merry Men while various computer/cell phone/bank records and yes, perhaps even what books you have been taking out of the library are compiled in some vast data bank in wherever. It is not hard to envision the day when the little black box sends notice of violations to the appropriate DMV/Insurance Company/Local Constabulary and a ticket is mailed to you, or they deliver it in person. If George Orwell could only envision what has happened since 1984 he would be amazed. This one is just the beginning.
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  #9  
Old 07-05-2013, 05:32 PM
ard ard is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brian5 View Post
ard,

Allstate have given me heads up that "In the Winter, Allstate will be introducing a small chip you plug into the car that will track total miles driven and other driving habits. This can give you a discount 0 - 20%. This system will be optional."

There is no way that I want that in my X5. I wouldn't mind having it in the SUV that my 17-year old drives though...
http://blog.vec.com/2012/01/30/revie...ive-wise-fail/

Wonder what obligation you have to be honest. Could you spoof a OBD connection to it that simply "divides by 2"? Contractually and legally it seems a bit murky:

https://drivewise.allstate.com/dw/dr...mon/termsofuse

You cant tamper with the device, but you can tamper with your car.... admittedly spoofing the OBD to tell it you are driving differently than you really are- and getting a discount when you shouldn't have- could be considered 'fraudulent'.

Oh, just get a dummy plug and tell the 17year old it is reporting any time they exceed 65mph, or corner over 0.3g.....



A
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  #10  
Old 07-06-2013, 08:34 PM
blue dragon blue dragon is offline
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I'd disable it if I found a DIY
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  #11  
Old 07-07-2013, 09:17 AM
usaret usaret is offline
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I don't like anything that tracks my driving habits. As far as insurance goes I want my premiums based on my at fault claims history, age, and driving record.

We're retired and love to travel so we put an inordinate amount of miles on our car (114,000 on a 2009). Allstate kept sending us these "what's your current mileage" forms to fill out. Knowing full well it might be grounds to deny a claim I filled them out correctly and they upped our rates significantly even though neither of us has had an accident or ticket in 30+ years. Several years ago we dumped Allstate and went with BMW Performance Insurance. I get the requisite renewal info every year and that's it. My premiums went down this last time.

Last edited by usaret; 07-10-2013 at 08:26 AM.
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  #12  
Old 07-07-2013, 01:43 PM
ard ard is offline
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^^+1 I too get the 'whats your mileage' crap.


Here is another thing to consider re: the snapshot OBD based insurance programs:

right now, they are offering a discount for slow/cautious drivers. They rationalize this to regulators with "we are not raising rates, just cutting those to people we THINK might be safer- but WE are taking the cut, so you should let us". Regulators have no choice but to say OK

THEN, they will collect DATA on driving habits and correlate that with claims....THEN you will see submissions to raise rates on drivers that have the attributes of 'high claims' drivers. Not based on your history, but based on your correlation of driving habits with other high claims drivers. once they have actuarial data to support the requests, regulators will be pressured to agree.

(And I am willing to bet that they will not perform multivariate analysis to show that speed, Gs and braking arent the whole story....)

IMO

A
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