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F10 / F11 (2011 - Current)
The new chapter in the highly successful story of the BMW 5 Series Sedan (F10) and wagon (F11)

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  #1  
Old 07-11-2013, 09:24 PM
DavidNJ DavidNJ is offline
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How Much Did Non-Runflats Help Your Handling

The M cars and the Porsches have regular tires and an inflator can. I imagine quite a few people here swapped out their runflats.

If you did, did it improve the handling? How was the handling different? Did you feel the suspension wasn't firm enough after the swap?

The ride should always be improved, how significant was it?

Since switching, have you ever had a flat?

And if you could, which tire did you switch to? Which did you switch from?
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  #2  
Old 07-12-2013, 02:08 AM
swajames swajames is offline
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I've had one flat in my 911 which was due to a nail in the tire. The inflator and sealant let me reinflate and drive to the dealer for a new tire.

On my 550 Sport I switched out the stock RFT's with regular tires and for me the difference was very significant. Ride and handling were greatly improved, and in particular wet traction was much greater (the stock RFT's BMW fitted back them were poor in the wet). One thing the RFT's did well was crisp turn in, due to the stiff sidewall. That didn't change much with the switch to regular tires. Everyone has their own views on this, but the car felt much sportier and much more composed on summer performance tires than the stock run flats.

RFT's are better now, but if my next BMW comes with RFT's I will once again trade them for conventional tires. With so much else on the option sheet, why BMW doesn't provide the ability to factory fit regular tires in place of the RFT's escapes me. I get that some like the security of the RFT, for me the ride and handling compromises make it well worth (what I believe to be a relatively low) risk of a blowout or actually getting stranded due to tire issues.
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  #3  
Old 07-12-2013, 05:05 AM
jjsC6 jjsC6 is offline
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Differences in handling are going have more to do with what tire you use than whether or not it's a runflat. There are plenty of runflats today that have incredible handling limits. Even Corvette Z06 & ZR1s with "cup" tires are runflats, and they have the highest lateral acceleration and lap times of any production car made.
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  #4  
Old 07-12-2013, 05:33 AM
The X Men The X Men is offline
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Given a runflat tire and a non-runflat tires of the same brand, size and model, the difference in performance is very minimal. For the average driver who do not push their car to the limit, the difference is hardly noticable. What most people get confuse with is that they change out their oem runflat for a better performance tire and contribute the improve performance to the non-runflat tires. When in fact, it is due to the difference brand and model.
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Old 07-12-2013, 07:59 AM
Quacker Quacker is offline
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I found the original runflats to be crisp in the turns but early to break loose when cornering hard. My conventional replacements are much more sticky so they are much harder to break loose, give excellent wet traction, equal cornering, but best of all, they are much, much quieter. I was shocked at the noise difference. There's nothing like flying down the concrete interstate at 80 MPH while having a conversation at normal speaking levels. Oh yes - as a side benefit, the replacements were chosen to have a rolling radius that corrects the ever-annoying speedometer error.
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  #6  
Old 07-12-2013, 09:03 AM
The X Men The X Men is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quacker View Post
I found the original runflats to be crisp in the turns but early to break loose when cornering hard.
Doesnt that have more to do with the type of the conventional tire you have rather than being non-runflats. Just about anything put on will be better than those Good year Eagle LS.
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  #7  
Old 07-12-2013, 09:14 AM
DavidNJ DavidNJ is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
Given a runflat tire and a non-runflat tires of the same brand, size and model, the difference in performance is very minimal. For the average driver who do not push their car to the limit, the difference is hardly noticable. What most people get confuse with is that they change out their oem runflat for a better performance tire and contribute the improve performance to the non-runflat tires. When in fact, it is due to the difference brand and model.
In the very latest (Bridgetone RE960AS Pole Position) the difference is smaller, but not zero. However, the runflat is never the latest. Bridgestone had introduced the RE970AS BEFORE the RE960AS came in a runflat version.

If you were getting a Max Performance tire, is there anyone who get a Conti SSR3, Dunlop Sport Maxx GT, or even Bridgestone RE50A (and pay over $300/tire) instead of a Michelin Pilot Super Sport for $230 or Bridgestone S-04, Conti ExtremeContact DW for under $200/tire?
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  #8  
Old 07-12-2013, 09:18 AM
The X Men The X Men is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidNJ View Post
In the very latest (Bridgetone RE960AS Pole Position) the difference is smaller, but not zero. However, the runflat is never the latest. Bridgestone had introduced the RE970AS BEFORE the RE960AS came in a runflat version.

If you were getting a Max Performance tire, is there anyone who get a Conti SSR3, Dunlop Sport Maxx GT, or even Bridgestone RE50A (and pay over $300/tire) instead of a Michelin Pilot Super Sport for $230 or Bridgestone S-04, Conti ExtremeContact DW for under $200/tire?
I agree, if tire perfermance is one's top priority, then non-runflat tire is a better option simply because there are a lot more choices out there.
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  #9  
Old 07-12-2013, 09:27 AM
ashu_20m ashu_20m is offline
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Swapping from run flats to regular tires may improve handling and performance, but remember BMW doesn't give a spare tire.. which all other automakers do...

so if you get a flat tire on your way... run flats will help you to get to a nearest service center.. with regular tires you are just stuck..
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  #10  
Old 07-12-2013, 09:38 AM
Quacker Quacker is offline
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Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
Doesnt that have more to do with the type of the conventional tire you have rather than being non-runflats. Just about anything put on will be better than those Good year Eagle LS.
There would be no way for me to judge if it was the fact that the Goodyear was a run flat that caused it to break early. But I recall that it surprised me, so it was not a comparison thing, just a raw observation made at the time.
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  #11  
Old 07-12-2013, 11:05 AM
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Mark K Mark K is online now
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I'll place the answers in bold below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidNJ View Post
The M cars and the Porsches have regular tires and an inflator can. I imagine quite a few people here swapped out their runflats.

If you did, did it improve the handling? How was the handling different? Did you feel the suspension wasn't firm enough after the swap?

Yes. Yes. No. Now, this said, you have to be very careful when you say "handling" on car forums/blogs. It is like saying "God". For as many people reading it, the word has as many different meanings.

The ride should always be improved, how significant was it?

Very significant. I wrote off-the-wall thread about it when I switched, but let's just say, very briefly, that
- my car didn't rattle anymore like 20 years old Yugo
- my car didn't fight to take steering wheel out of my hands anymore
- my car stopped driving like a truck


Since switching, have you ever had a flat?

Yes, but I was lucky. The flat was discovered right when I took the car in to swap summers for winter tires. In any case, I carry compressor with goo and I have compact spare in the garage which I load into the trunk for trips more than 50 miles out.

And if you could, which tire did you switch to? Which did you switch from?

I switched from Bridgestone Potenza RE050A I to Michelin Pilot Super Sport. That's apple-to-apple, both are max performance summer tires.

As many others already said, the only thing that goes for Potenzas was the impression of sharper turn-in. Then plowing started at even lower speeds because the tire won't flex. So, I would call it a wash. In exchange, everything else significantly improved, but the aspect that left me with my jaw hanging around my belt was wet grip that Michelin PSS provide. Unbelievable. Potenzas didn't like wet all that much ... they were hardly inadequate, but they met true excellence in wet conditions which makes them appear pretty mediocre.

Finally, I cannot say anything for a tire noise because Potenzas were pretty worn out when I swapped and ANY new tire will be significantly less noisy. All I can say is that noise level of Michelin PSS is completely a non-issue for me, I don't even notice any to think about it. Also, I didn't notice any otherwordly improvement when I mounted new set of Michelin PSS two weeks ago while removing worn set of same tires.

Hope that helps.
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2013 118d BMWNA Special Edition. Black on black cloth (yay!), 5 door hatchback, 140hp diesel. Special edition items: factory debadge| "VW", "Golf" and "TDI" badges factory applied | MT | Standard go flat tires | Spare tire (yay!) | No moonroof (yay!) .

Last edited by Mark K; 07-12-2013 at 11:06 AM.
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  #12  
Old 07-12-2013, 11:39 AM
DavidNJ DavidNJ is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashu_20m View Post
Swapping from run flats to regular tires may improve handling and performance, but remember BMW doesn't give a spare tire.. which all other automakers do...

so if you get a flat tire on your way... run flats will help you to get to a nearest service center.. with regular tires you are just stuck..
Most cars without spares—including BMW M series and Porsches—have inflation kits. Most flats are punctures with slow leaks, often discovered in the driveway. A GM survey said that accounted for 2/3rds of all flats.

Both runflats and temporary spares have limitations in range and speed. The runflat is usually considered non-repairable after that use but can provide the least hassle and risk of rim damage. A catastrophic failure of the original tire would mean only the replacement spare would work. Off road racers carry multiple full-size spares mounted and ready to go.



Note the 3-link rear suspension.
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  #13  
Old 07-12-2013, 11:51 AM
DavidNJ DavidNJ is offline
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Originally Posted by Mark K View Post
I'll place the answers in bold below.
Sounds like it worked out very well.
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  #14  
Old 07-12-2013, 12:03 PM
swajames swajames is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
Given a runflat tire and a non-runflat tires of the same brand, size and model, the difference in performance is very minimal. For the average driver who do not push their car to the limit, the difference is hardly noticable. What most people get confuse with is that they change out their oem runflat for a better performance tire and contribute the improve performance to the non-runflat tires. When in fact, it is due to the difference brand and model.
Runflats tend to be significantly heavier than non-RFTs. All of that weight is unspring weight. Tires aren't created equal, agreed, but the unsprung weight reduction coupled with the more pliant sidewalls account for much more of the difference than you suggest.
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  #15  
Old 07-12-2013, 03:02 PM
Quacker Quacker is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashu_20m View Post
Swapping from run flats to regular tires may improve handling and performance, but remember BMW doesn't give a spare tire.. which all other automakers do...

so if you get a flat tire on your way... run flats will help you to get to a nearest service center.. with regular tires you are just stuck..
I have assuaged my paranoia about not having a spare by carrying a Slime kit: http://www.slime.com/shop/safety-spair-70005/ along with a handy tire plug kit.
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  #16  
Old 07-12-2013, 04:08 PM
The X Men The X Men is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quacker View Post
There would be no way for me to judge if it was the fact that the Goodyear was a run flat that caused it to break early. But I recall that it surprised me, so it was not a comparison thing, just a raw observation made at the time.
I had the non runflat version of the Good year Eagle LS on my wife's old Q5, they are terrible when driven hard. I know its not a good comparison, but its the closest comparison I cam come up with.
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  #17  
Old 07-12-2013, 04:12 PM
The X Men The X Men is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swajames View Post
Runflats tend to be significantly heavier than non-RFTs. All of that weight is unspring weight. Tires aren't created equal, agreed, but the unsprung weight reduction coupled with the more pliant sidewalls account for much more of the difference than you suggest.
Tirerack did some testing of summer runflat tires and found them to perform as well if not better than their non-runflat counterparts:

"All four of the tires in our test proved you don't have to give up performance to get a run-flat's extended mobility. The Pilot Sport PS2 ZP really came alive when driven at the limit, displaying very responsive steering, excellent braking traction and stable cornering. It almost felt a little more composed and capable than we remember of the non-ZP version tested a few years ago."

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/...y.jsp?ttid=158

Last edited by The X Men; 07-12-2013 at 05:06 PM.
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  #18  
Old 07-12-2013, 07:12 PM
DavidNJ DavidNJ is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
Tirerack did some testing of summer runflat tires and found them to perform as well if not better than their non-runflat counterparts:

"All four of the tires in our test proved you don't have to give up performance to get a run-flat's extended mobility. The Pilot Sport PS2 ZP really came alive when driven at the limit, displaying very responsive steering, excellent braking traction and stable cornering. It almost felt a little more composed and capable than we remember of the non-ZP version tested a few years ago."

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/...y.jsp?ttid=158
The are a few keys. First, it wasn't back-to-back test. it was back to distant memory of "a few years ago".

That second part is also critical. PS2? The Tire Rack reviews of the PS/2 date back to 2003. And even then, it isn't available in F10 sizes in RFT.

Tire Rack points to a 2005 test for the non-runflat versions of this tire. There you find all the F10 "summer performance tires". The RE50A finished 9th. Dunlop SP Sport Maxx 6th. PS/2 4th. Conti SportContact 2nd. Net: Runflats condemn the owner largely to not quite as good versions of 8 year old designs (when the E60 was new). The only exception appears to be the RE960AS, which is a 3 year old RFT tire of a 7 year old non-RFT design.

http://www.tirerack.com/images/tires...y_f1_gs_ds.pdf

On a personal note, this tread is convincing me changing the RFTs for modern tires and an inflation kit and maybe a space saver spare and tools in a bag is the way to go. If leased, there would be a new set of tires waiting for lease turn-in.
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  #19  
Old 07-12-2013, 08:01 PM
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dunderhi dunderhi is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidNJ View Post
On a personal note, this tread is convincing me changing the RFTs for modern tires and an inflation kit and maybe a space saver spare and tools in a bag is the way to go. If leased, there would be a new set of tires waiting for lease turn-in.
I replace the RFTs and wheels on my BMWs when new, so I can't speak to the improvement of the tires alone, but I am sold since the extra expense seems well worth it..

My 335d suffered from what is called pothole explosions which basically meant the suspension bottomed out and a thunderous boom is heard inside the cabin and the cars jumps to one side. After I did my swap out(trimmed 45lbs), I didn't not have one explosion. The ride was much more supple, but steering was also improved - primarily due to the weight loss.

I made the same type of change on my 550i (trimmed 70lbs), but since the 550 was tuned to be a bit softer, I found my changes made it a little too soft. The extra power from the Dinan tuned made the suspension feel even softer yet. So I resprung the car. After that, the 550 felt and handled like a BMW should. Everyone who test drove my car always had an ear-to-ear grin when the got done.

The X5M, rode very stiff on RFTs, but didn't suffer from pothole explosions like the 335d. Swapping the wheels & tires (trimmed 60lbs) did soften up the ride, maybe a little too much for me, but Mrs D likes the softer ride better. The pliable sidewalls do communicate more information back to the driver, so I'm less likely to get in trouble when I'm pushing it hard.

On the 650, I reused the 550 wheels & tires, but since the 650 was already more stiffly sprung, the lighter wheels & tires was an improvement in the smoothness of the ride, but again handling in improved since the combination of light wheels with soft tires is still better than heavy wheels and stiff tires. Basically, the suspension doesn't need to work nearly as hard to adapt to road irregularities.

BTW, I have not had a flat tire since the mid-90s and I usually drive 20-25kmi/yr.
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  #20  
Old 07-13-2013, 06:03 AM
The X Men The X Men is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidNJ View Post
The are a few keys. First, it wasn't back-to-back test. it was back to distant memory of "a few years ago".

That second part is also critical. PS2? The Tire Rack reviews of the PS/2 date back to 2003. And even then, it isn't available in F10 sizes in RFT.

Tire Rack points to a 2005 test for the non-runflat versions of this tire. There you find all the F10 "summer performance tires". The RE50A finished 9th. Dunlop SP Sport Maxx 6th. PS/2 4th. Conti SportContact 2nd. Net: Runflats condemn the owner largely to not quite as good versions of 8 year old designs (when the E60 was new). The only exception appears to be the RE960AS, which is a 3 year old RFT tire of a 7 year old non-RFT design.

http://www.tirerack.com/images/tires...y_f1_gs_ds.pdf

On a personal note, this tread is convincing me changing the RFTs for modern tires and an inflation kit and maybe a space saver spare and tools in a bag is the way to go. If leased, there would be a new set of tires waiting for lease turn-in.
If that's what you took away from that article, then you have truly miss the point of the article.
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Old 07-13-2013, 07:18 AM
gjsnow gjsnow is offline
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On a personal note, this tread is convincing me changing the RFTs for modern tires and an inflation kit and maybe a space saver spare and tools in a bag is the way to go. If leased, there would be a new set of tires waiting for lease turn-in.[/QUOTE]

I know I reduced the car's high end performance characteristics, but I put High performance all season Conti DSW on my new 550i. I did this for the cold temps in the north east and the possible winter crud I could hit by surprise. I have terrible roads by me and the softer sidewall in comfort plus is much, much better than the OE runflats. Besides, I'm not feeling every single crack and highway joint anymore. The run-flats that came on the car were Bridgestone TURANZA ER300 which are not even available thru tire rack. It was such a rare tire in this size that I felt compelled to get them off the car. If I had a problem, the car would sit at the dealer for a week or two while they tried to locate a tire. I bought a donut spare thru bimmerzone and a scissor jack at harbor freight, and breaker bar with a 17mm socket and I'm all set. The Bridgestone's are in storage and can be put back on the car at lease turn-in.
Well spent $1300.
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  #22  
Old 07-13-2013, 08:57 AM
DavidNJ DavidNJ is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
If that's what you took away from that article, then you have truly miss the point of the article.
And what do you consider the takeaway of an 8 year old tire test of non-runflat versions of the current summer performance tires of the F10?

The tire models are all old, long since replaced by their manufacturer in non-runflat versions, and none that anyone would consider unless they insisted on having runflats.

What was your takeaway?
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  #23  
Old 07-13-2013, 03:35 PM
The X Men The X Men is offline
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Originally Posted by DavidNJ View Post
What was your takeaway?
My take away was that the editors were surprise at how well the latest generation of runflat performs and the disadvantage of runflats are minimized in the latest generation of runflats. The mere mention of the possibility of a runflat tires out performing a convention tire, even if it was an older design, means that the lastest gen of runflat have vastly improved.

Last edited by The X Men; 07-13-2013 at 03:42 PM.
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  #24  
Old 07-13-2013, 03:56 PM
DavidNJ DavidNJ is offline
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Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
My take away was that the editors were surprise at how well the latest generation of runflat performs and the disadvantage of runflats are minimized in the latest generation of runflats. The mere mention of the possibility of a runflat tires out performing a convention tire, even if it was an older design, means that the lastest gen of runflat have vastly improved.
Where did you see that? None of the tires in the test were runflats. Which test are you talking about? The only runflat to non-runflat test I posted was the Bridgestone RE960AS. However, by the time the RE960AS was available, it had been replaced by the RE970AS, a which Bridgestone claimed to be a better tire in every area.
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Old 07-13-2013, 04:05 PM
The X Men The X Men is offline
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Originally Posted by DavidNJ View Post
Where did you see that? None of the tires in the test were runflats. Which test are you talking about? The only runflat to non-runflat test I posted was the Bridgestone RE960AS. However, by the time the RE960AS was available, it had been replaced by the RE970AS, a which Bridgestone claimed to be a better tire in every area.


Didn't you read my post before you respond to it, post #17:

"Tirerack did some testing of summer runflat tires and found them to perform as well if not better than their non-runflat counterparts:

"All four of the tires in our test proved you don't have to give up performance to get a run-flat's extended mobility. The Pilot Sport PS2 ZP really came alive when driven at the limit, displaying very responsive steering, excellent braking traction and stable cornering. It almost felt a little more composed and capable than we remember of the non-ZP version tested a few years ago."

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/...y.jsp?ttid=158 "

You don't like runflats, can we both agree on that? All I am saying is that runflat perform good enough for 90% of the BMW owners out there who do not track their cars. I hated my runflats on my 08 GS350, but the lastest gen of runflats on my F10 is not too bad. I bought the F10 thinking I would hate the runflats and I would change them out as soon as they wear out, but a year and half later, I am thinking my next set of tires will be runflats as well.

Last edited by The X Men; 07-13-2013 at 04:12 PM.
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