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F30 / F31 / F32 / F33 (2012 - current)
The sixth generation 3 series, chassis code F30. 2013 model year 328i and 335i sedans now in production. Read the F30 frequently asked question thread for all your basic question and dive into all the details in the ultimate F30 information thread.

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  #51  
Old 07-19-2013, 06:55 AM
Nedmundo Nedmundo is offline
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Originally Posted by Technic View Post
IMO, I think that it is not that they stopped serving beef, it is that they started serving undercooked beef.

The common denominator that so far has been reported by all magazines comparos about the F30 is that the ride and handling have been changed, soften, diminished, whatever. But what is really interesting to me is that the BMW Sports Suspension (704) is the one that they are complaining about.

I would have expected complaints about the base suspension, especially now that it is the standard suspension even on the upcoming 4-Series. But I do not understand why messing with the 704 when it is an optional suspension. Why BMW cannot please both type of customers?

Or is it that they found out that they are the same customer but looking for better seats only?
My views exactly. I cannot fault BMW for making a 3 Series with broader appeal in base form. That's just good business. However, I cannot comprehend the considerable softening of the Sport Line and its light, numb steering. Traditionally, the Sport Package was enough to satisfy a discerning enthusiast who wasn't willing or able to step up to the M3, but now, apparently, BMW wants folks to ante up for PPK, M suspension parts, etc. (I'm still hoping and assuming the steering will be worked out.)

By the way, in the long run I don't think alienating the enthusiast market is good business either. Enthusiasts tend to promote their cars and influence others, so their impact is felt beyond their relatively small numbers. When enthusiasts start telling people that BMW is no longer the "Ultimate Driving Machine," some of those people might go elsewhere, even if they aren't after serious driver's cars. The image should be backed up by substance. Does BMW really want enthusiasts telling their friends that Cadillac and Lexus build better handling sport sedans? I doubt it.
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  #52  
Old 07-19-2013, 06:59 AM
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^^ I think that you nailed it! ^^
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  #53  
Old 07-19-2013, 05:51 PM
Elk Elk is offline
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Originally Posted by Nedmundo View Post
Does BMW really want enthusiasts telling their friends that Cadillac and Lexus build better handling sport sedans?
BMW has already decided it is willing for this to occur.
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  #54  
Old 07-19-2013, 07:44 PM
EstorilF30 EstorilF30 is offline
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BMW has already decided it is willing for this to occur.
Yet Lexus and Cadillac aren't really stomping the competition in reviews, so BMW hasn't lost their edge ...
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  #55  
Old 07-20-2013, 01:00 AM
Kayani_1 Kayani_1 is offline
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Says who?

The new IS 350 F-sport just recently beat BMW F30 335i M-sport based on better driving dynamics in a recent 5 car comparison. So when is the last time a 3 series in BMW history has ever lost to a Lexus IS.

I think it is getting a bit sad for BMW enthusiast to know how their brand is being diluted day by day in name of good business.

A good business mantra......I say my behind.

A good business sense would be to realize what brought them to be such a coveted brand to begin with. It was not by making cars that appealed to masses. To be honest BMW was never for those guys that wanted curb appeal or soft core floaty luxury rides or dash strokers. It was also not for wife's and old folks that complained about steering wheel being on the heavy side because it was hard for them to deal with mall parking lot maneuvers.

Because you know what you could buy a lot of other cars that had greater looks and curb appeal. There were also cars out there that were more ideal for dash strokers not to mention car that were far more luxurious feeling with soft floaty rides to satisfy those with back issues from old age or injuries.

The reason BMW became popular was because it was made for those that wanted a driving dynamics of Porsche like sports cars with seating for 4-5 and greater practicality. Folks that wanted to drive a car that was as close to a sports car without sacrificing the practicality of carrying a family. A car that would put a smile on your face during daily driving and not only good for tracking. A car that felt connected to driver with excellent driving dynamics.

Enthusiast, are the one that build this brand. Because everyone wanted to find out what was so good about BMW's that these enthusiast would swear by it. It started to gain ground over cars like MB and Audi. The BMW brand established it self with slogans of driving dynamics first. If you wanted the best in sports luxury BMW was the name to reckon with.

It got down to a point that every Tom, Dick, and Harry wanted a BMW. They do not fully understand why but it is because it is the best in its class. However, after owning one they will gripe oh the steering is too heavy my wrist hurts, the dash is not as nice as Audi, the luxury/curb appeal is not as good as MB. The ride is not as soft as Lexus and neither are the gizmos.

So here comes BMW upper management lusting after these new found customers who did not enjoy BMW core values as they they never understood them. They just bought BMW's as some sort of status symbol of owning the best in its class.

In order to attract more of these so called greater sales and new found customers BMW changed its slogan to Efficient dynamics. Now BMW have become more about efficiency and soft core luxury and tech gizmos then driving dynamics.

Thus, the most soft core 3 series in BMW's history called F30 is here. Ditto with F10 and others.

Anyways my 2 cents.....End rant.
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  #56  
Old 07-20-2013, 01:31 AM
Mo@BMWRockville Mo@BMWRockville is offline
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Originally Posted by Nedmundo View Post
My views exactly. I cannot fault BMW for making a 3 Series with broader appeal in base form. That's just good business. However, I cannot comprehend the considerable softening of the Sport Line and its light, numb steering. Traditionally, the Sport Package was enough to satisfy a discerning enthusiast who wasn't willing or able to step up to the M3, but now, apparently, BMW wants folks to ante up for PPK, M suspension parts, etc. (I'm still hoping and assuming the steering will be worked out.)

By the way, in the long run I don't think alienating the enthusiast market is good business either. Enthusiasts tend to promote their cars and influence others, so their impact is felt beyond their relatively small numbers. When enthusiasts start telling people that BMW is no longer the "Ultimate Driving Machine," some of those people might go elsewhere, even if they aren't after serious driver's cars. The image should be backed up by substance. Does BMW really want enthusiasts telling their friends that Cadillac and Lexus build better handling sport sedans? I doubt it.
When the BMW badge alone will make them money, then yes.
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  #57  
Old 07-20-2013, 06:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Mo@BMWRockville View Post
When the BMW badge alone will make them money, then yes.
But for how long?

I've been with the marque for 23 years now. I've owned E30, E36, E46 (3), E91 and E82 (2).

I've had.................transmissions fail at 25k miles.....window regulators groan and croak............cylinders misfire generating the ubiquitous 'Check Engine' light...........batteries die way before their time..........to drive in limp mode for a while because the high pressure fuel pump crapped out at 7k miles................and other ad nausea little "quirks" that come with owning the marque.

Though the rides been bumpy at times I've stuck around because frankly no other marque has had the perfect blend that has been the hallmark of BMW's............. until now.

Will these Toyota, Honda and Lexus owners they are pandering to stick around beyond their current lease merely for the badge once they experience one of these burps, or have a crappy service experience or two?

Frankly, I'm done with any new BMW if they decide that pumping out $50k 4 bangers that handle and steer like a Buick is the wave of the future. I played that scene for a year with an 01 E46 cab, and of all the niggles I've persevered through that was by far the most painful.

That's the gamble as I see it.

It used to be that other makes would buy BMW's just to have their engineers tear it apart and analyze it to see why everything meshed so well. And despite their efforts, while they might be able to duplicate the individual parts, they never could duplicate that unique attribute of 'soul' and synergy once they put everything back together on their own platform.

Little did they know all they needed to do was wait for BMW to bring down the bar, and risk losing its "soul" all by themselves.
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  #58  
Old 07-20-2013, 06:57 AM
EstorilF30 EstorilF30 is offline
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But for how long?

I've been with the marque for 23 years now. I've owned E30, E36, E46 (3), E91 and E82 (2).

I've had.................transmissions fail at 25k miles.....window regulators groan and croak............cylinders misfire generating the ubiquitous 'Check Engine' light...........batteries die way before their time..........to drive in limp mode for a while because the high pressure fuel pump crapped out at 7k miles................and other ad nausea little "quirks" that come with owning the marque.

Though the rides been bumpy at times I've stuck around because frankly no other marque has had the perfect blend that has been the hallmark of BMW's............. until now.

Will these Toyota, Honda and Lexus owners they are pandering to stick around beyond their current lease merely for the badge once they experience one of these burps, or have a crappy service experience or two?

Frankly, I'm done with any new BMW if they decide that pumping out $50k 4 bangers that handle and steer like a Buick is the wave of the future. I played that scene for a year with an 01 E46 cab, and of all the niggles I've persevered through that was by far the most painful.

That's the gamble as I see it.

It used to be that other makes would buy BMW's just to have their engineers tear it apart and analyze it to see why everything meshed so well. And despite their efforts, while they might be able to duplicate the individual parts, they never could duplicate that unique attribute of 'soul' and synergy once they put everything back together on their own platform.

Little did they know all they needed to do was wait for BMW to bring down the bar, and risk losing its "soul" all by themselves.
Sad but true.

I don't see myself ever buying a Mercedes, but Audi has made great leaps in performance while retaining competitive pricing next to BMW.

Hell, if the ATS proves itself with the redesign, I may consider that. It's not a BMW but it seems to drive better than one in some ways while being a hell lot cheaper.
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  #59  
Old 07-20-2013, 09:57 AM
Al Bundy Al Bundy is online now
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FWIW, when we recently had an F30 loaner, even my wife came away unimpressed/disappointed. Huge red flag to me as she is by no means an enthusiast, yet could immediately tell the difference in handling from our E90, and in general did not care for it. Part of it may have been it was AT instead of our usual preference of a MT, so there's already an inherent disconnect from the car.


Now, this isnt to say we've written the F30 as a next car or that we think its a bad car, just that there will be other vehicles that we look at as well.
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  #60  
Old 07-20-2013, 02:14 PM
dsackman dsackman is offline
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Originally Posted by Al Bundy View Post
FWIW, when we recently had an F30 loaner, even my wife came away unimpressed/disappointed. Huge red flag to me as she is by no means an enthusiast, yet could immediately tell the difference in handling from our E90, and in general did not care for it. Part of it may have been it was AT instead of our usual preference of a MT, so there's already an inherent disconnect from the car.


Now, this isnt to say we've written the F30 as a next car or that we think its a bad car, just that there will be other vehicles that we look at as well.

I even went so far as to buy one for my wife, just assuming that the 2012 328 will be a real BMW. Well, she has taken over my Golf TDI, I got to drive the Audi Q5 every day now and I am looking for someone to get me out of a BMW lease. The car is just sitting there with no takers to drive it...

Serious disappointment.


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Last edited by dsackman; 07-20-2013 at 02:18 PM.
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  #61  
Old 07-20-2013, 04:49 PM
sunny5280 sunny5280 is offline
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I think it is a sad day in BMW history when a BMW wins comparisons based on Curb appeal rather then driving dynamics.
BMW doesn't care about you. You are no longer where the money is. BMW is chasing the mass market. If you don't like their direction then you're free to purchase elsewhere. BMW isn't going to miss you. Hate to be so blunt but that's reality.
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  #62  
Old 07-20-2013, 05:19 PM
jjrandorin jjrandorin is offline
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Originally Posted by sunny5280 View Post
BMW doesn't care about you. You are no longer where the money is. BMW is chasing the mass market. If you don't like their direction then you're free to purchase elsewhere. BMW isn't going to miss you. Hate to be so blunt but that's reality.
This

Vote with your wallet. Buy the Lexus. BMW is having record sales so its obviously working. It's your money so buy another car and don't look back.

If you do not feel BMW is producing a car for you buy an Audi / Lexus / MB.

"I" like my 335 sport line though, and it performs well enough for me


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  #63  
Old 07-20-2013, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by jjrandorin View Post
This

Vote with your wallet. Buy the Lexus. BMW is having record sales so its obviously working. It's your money so buy another car and don't look back.

If you do not feel BMW is producing a car for you buy an Audi / Lexus / MB.

"I" like my 335 sport line though, and it performs well enough for me


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This, +

If you don't like any other brands offerings you can go the used route. I just did a quick search of used E9x's and there tons of low mileage reasonably priced ones out there. So you can drive an E9x car until the next 3er generation comes out.

Then in 2018 when BMW comes out with an all electric 3 series you can go on that forum and bash a whole new car and their owners.
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  #64  
Old 07-21-2013, 02:37 PM
Kayani_1 Kayani_1 is offline
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That is until they realize that the brand flourished by the passion of enthusiast that stuck by for decades. It was they who made the brand what it was by their loyalty and by their wallets and by them swearing that no one does sports luxury like BMW.

All these new customers from Lexus, MB, Audi.....etc.etc......are here today and will jump to the next best iphone on 4 wheels.



Quote:
Originally Posted by sunny5280 View Post
BMW doesn't care about you. You are no longer where the money is. BMW is chasing the mass market. If you don't like their direction then you're free to purchase elsewhere. BMW isn't going to miss you. Hate to be so blunt but that's reality.
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  #65  
Old 07-21-2013, 04:42 PM
Geekenstein Geekenstein is offline
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For what it's worth, I'll give you all a non-brand-loyal, first-time BMW owner perspective. I test drove an ATS. It was duly noted that it had slightly better steering feel and driving dynamics (although poorer acceleration) than the 328i. Then I sat in the rear seat and noted how cramped it was. I gawked at the hideously flashy interior. I noted that you have to pay extra for folding rear seats. I fumbled with the weird touch-screen entertainment/navigation system. (and why touch screen? I don't want to lean over and stare at a screen while I'm trying to drive.) Then I decided there was just no question the BMW was the better sports sedan. "The Ultimate Driving Machine"? Hell no. But it never was. If you want the ultimate driving machine you get a Porsche, or maybe a Corvette. The ultimate value in a sports sedan? Absolutely.
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  #66  
Old 07-21-2013, 04:50 PM
sunny5280 sunny5280 is offline
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That is until they realize that the brand flourished by the passion of enthusiast that stuck by for decades. It was they who made the brand what it was by their loyalty and by their wallets and by them swearing that no one does sports luxury like BMW.

All these new customers from Lexus, MB, Audi.....etc.etc......are here today and will jump to the next best iphone on 4 wheels.
I've heard similar comments from Mac users about how Apple is abandoning them. Perhaps you're right and once the iPod / iPhone / iPad "fads" wear off and consumers look elsewhere Mac users may once again become important to Apple. But then Apple was pretty much out of the running when they were merely making computers.

I see a lot of parallels here with BMW.
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  #67  
Old 07-21-2013, 04:58 PM
EstorilF30 EstorilF30 is offline
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I've heard similar comments from Mac users about how Apple is abandoning them. Perhaps you're right and once the iPod / iPhone / iPad "fads" wear off and consumers look elsewhere Mac users may once again become important to Apple. But then Apple was pretty much out of the running when they were merely making computers.

I see a lot of parallels here with BMW.
I feel like companies tend to arc, and not run in cycles like that.

I'm a huge Apple fan, but they seem to be hitting their peak, and after that I'm not sure if they will ever rebound to the level they were at before.
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  #68  
Old 07-21-2013, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Geekenstein View Post
For what it's worth, I'll give you all a non-brand-loyal, first-time BMW owner perspective. I test drove an ATS. It was duly noted that it had slightly better steering feel and driving dynamics (although poorer acceleration) than the 328i. Then I sat in the rear seat and noted how cramped it was. I gawked at the hideously flashy interior. I noted that you have to pay extra for folding rear seats. I fumbled with the weird touch-screen entertainment/navigation system. (and why touch screen? I don't want to lean over and stare at a screen while I'm trying to drive.) Then I decided there was just no question the BMW was the better sports sedan. "The Ultimate Driving Machine"? Hell no. But it never was. If you want the ultimate driving machine you get a Porsche, or maybe a Corvette. The ultimate value in a sports sedan? Absolutely.
I agree with your assessment of both cars. I never drove the ATS so I cannot comment on how it drove, and I know styling is subjective, but I could never get past that massive gaudy Cadillac symbol on the grill. I'm also not a huge fan of the overall exterior/interior styling and all the chrome that Cadillac's seem to have a lot of.

I also had a Camry with a touchscreen Entune nav/radio system and I was not a fan. It sucked trying to search for specific songs or playlists and inevitably you would hit a selection you didn't mean to make and have to start over. I to like the iDrive wheel system much better. Especially living in Minnesota when it seems like we have gloves on for 6 months out of the year.
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  #69  
Old 07-21-2013, 07:17 PM
mark_12345 mark_12345 is offline
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S4 vs 335i xDrive ... tough choice.
My friend is a mechanic and worked for Audi and now BMW. He says both cars are about the same in performance and day-to-day handling/ride/performance, etc.
From his point of view, what separates S4 vs 335 is that BMW is much easier to maintain than Audi. Access to certain areas in the engine bay and electronics are easier on the BMW vs Audi. However, he says you can't go wrong with either one...

Last edited by mark_12345; 07-21-2013 at 07:22 PM.
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  #70  
Old 07-22-2013, 08:31 PM
Kayani_1 Kayani_1 is offline
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One does not have to settle for a Corvette or Porsche if you want ultimate driving machine in a form of a compact to midsize sedan in the luxury sport range. Because neither one of them offer one. If they did BMW would not be the name to reckon with in luxury sport class.

The BMW was the name in ultimate driving machine when it came down to the compact-midsize luxury sports sedan category and dominated it for a long time. It is now down to a more diluted version of what it once was. It is still good but not excellent at the expense of appealing to masses.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Geekenstein View Post
"The Ultimate Driving Machine"? Hell no. But it never was. If you want the ultimate driving machine you get a Porsche, or maybe a Corvette.

Last edited by Kayani_1; 07-22-2013 at 08:36 PM.
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Old 07-22-2013, 08:47 PM
Kayani_1 Kayani_1 is offline
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One of the BMW Tech that I have now known for multiple years works on my car privately. He recently moved to Porsche from BMW. He said that the cars BMW is making based on efficient dynamic philosophy are now using cheaper recyclable materials... etc. The BMW cars are just not as good and are harder to work on and things are lower cost and quality.

He finds the Porsche more easier to work on and thinks they are more fun to drive. However, according to him it is a bit over priced. Anyways, I take what he says with a pinch of salt because your personal reasons can cloud your judgment.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mark_12345 View Post
S4 vs 335i xDrive ... tough choice.
My friend is a mechanic and worked for Audi and now BMW. He says both cars are about the same in performance and day-to-day handling/ride/performance, etc.
From his point of view, what separates S4 vs 335 is that BMW is much easier to maintain than Audi. Access to certain areas in the engine bay and electronics are easier on the BMW vs Audi. However, he says you can't go wrong with either one...

Last edited by Kayani_1; 07-22-2013 at 08:50 PM.
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  #72  
Old 07-22-2013, 09:02 PM
mark_12345 mark_12345 is offline
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Originally Posted by Kayani_1 View Post
One of the BMW Tech that I have now known for multiple years works on my car privately. He recently moved to Porsche from BMW. He said that the cars BMW is making based on efficient dynamic philosophy are now using cheaper recyclable materials... etc. The BMW cars are just not as good and are harder to work on and things are lower cost and quality.

He finds the Porsche more easier to work on and thinks they are more fun to drive. However, according to him it is a bit over priced. Anyways, I take what he says with a pinch of salt because your personal reasons can cloud your judgment.
I have a Porsche '08 C4S, '09 Turbo, '11 R8 V10 and '10 E92 Vert (I know, I have a sickness ). My wife drives a '11 328XiT.

The most trouble free cars have been the BMWs, followed by the Porsches [knock on wood] then Audi. My R8 had a water pump replacement after 1,500 miles, followed by a passenger door handle rattle - all fixed by under Audi warranty. The mechanic said it was a b* to replace the water pump. The E92 has been incredibly reliable. The 328XiT is great for long distance trips - recently added a hitch for hauling bikes, etc.

I've test driven various flavors of F30 and I like what BMW has done. Yeah could they have done better - always. With that said, I believe the F30 is the best on the market for performance, maintenance, quality and customer service.

Probably next year I'll get a 335xDrive w/M-package as daily driver...

Last edited by mark_12345; 07-22-2013 at 09:25 PM.
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  #73  
Old 07-22-2013, 09:09 PM
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minn19 minn19 is offline
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Originally Posted by Kayani_1 View Post
One of the BMW Tech that I have now known for multiple years works on my car privately. He recently moved to Porsche from BMW. He said that the cars BMW is making based on efficient dynamic philosophy are now using cheaper recyclable materials... etc. The BMW cars are just not as good and are harder to work on and things are lower cost and quality.

He finds the Porsche more easier to work on and thinks they are more fun to drive. However, according to him it is a bit over priced. Anyways, I take what he says with a pinch of salt because your personal reasons can cloud your judgment.
It is obvious you do not like the F30 or the direction that BMW is going, but you are really stretching now to make your point. Recycled materials doesn't necessarily mean cheaper or lower quality. I'd be willing to bet that every car out there has some recycled metal in them including upscale cars. It is the way of the world nowadays. For example: if you go buy new calipers for your car it is not brand new metal from ore from the ground. It's either rebuilt or recycled from something which is why you get a core charge for most car parts.

Most Porches are mid-engine cars and generally harder to work on because of access to the motor and are quite cramped. I'd be very surprised if a lot of mechanics shared your mechanics opinion.

Besides Porches SUV's and the Panamerica your saying a dedicated sports car is more fun to drive than a 3 series (besides M cars). No sh**! I'm sure nobody here thought that.
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Last edited by minn19; 07-22-2013 at 09:13 PM.
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  #74  
Old 07-22-2013, 09:31 PM
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Says who?

The new IS 350 F-sport just recently beat BMW F30 335i M-sport based on better driving dynamics in a recent 5 car comparison. So when is the last time a 3 series in BMW history has ever lost to a Lexus IS.

I think it is getting a bit sad for BMW enthusiast to know how their brand is being diluted day by day in name of good business.

A good business mantra......I say my behind.

A good business sense would be to realize what brought them to be such a coveted brand to begin with. It was not by making cars that appealed to masses. To be honest BMW was never for those guys that wanted curb appeal or soft core floaty luxury rides or dash strokers. It was also not for wife's and old folks that complained about steering wheel being on the heavy side because it was hard for them to deal with mall parking lot maneuvers.

Because you know what you could buy a lot of other cars that had greater looks and curb appeal. There were also cars out there that were more ideal for dash strokers not to mention car that were far more luxurious feeling with soft floaty rides to satisfy those with back issues from old age or injuries.

The reason BMW became popular was because it was made for those that wanted a driving dynamics of Porsche like sports cars with seating for 4-5 and greater practicality. Folks that wanted to drive a car that was as close to a sports car without sacrificing the practicality of carrying a family. A car that would put a smile on your face during daily driving and not only good for tracking. A car that felt connected to driver with excellent driving dynamics.

Enthusiast, are the one that build this brand. Because everyone wanted to find out what was so good about BMW's that these enthusiast would swear by it. It started to gain ground over cars like MB and Audi. The BMW brand established it self with slogans of driving dynamics first. If you wanted the best in sports luxury BMW was the name to reckon with.

It got down to a point that every Tom, Dick, and Harry wanted a BMW. They do not fully understand why but it is because it is the best in its class. However, after owning one they will gripe oh the steering is too heavy my wrist hurts, the dash is not as nice as Audi, the luxury/curb appeal is not as good as MB. The ride is not as soft as Lexus and neither are the gizmos.

So here comes BMW upper management lusting after these new found customers who did not enjoy BMW core values as they they never understood them. They just bought BMW's as some sort of status symbol of owning the best in its class.

In order to attract more of these so called greater sales and new found customers BMW changed its slogan to Efficient dynamics. Now BMW have become more about efficiency and soft core luxury and tech gizmos then driving dynamics.

Thus, the most soft core 3 series in BMW's history called F30 is here. Ditto with F10 and others.

Anyways my 2 cents.....End rant.
This is a good post that I agree with.
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  #75  
Old 07-22-2013, 11:19 PM
jjrandorin jjrandorin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayani_1 View Post
One does not have to settle for a Corvette or Porsche if you want ultimate driving machine in a form of a compact to midsize sedan in the luxury sport range. Because neither one of them offer one. If they did BMW would not be the name to reckon with in luxury sport class.

The BMW was the name in ultimate driving machine when it came down to the compact-midsize luxury sports sedan category and dominated it for a long time. It is now down to a more diluted version of what it once was. It is still good but not excellent at the expense of appealing to masses.
So, stop posting about it , and simply don't buy it. It's obvious you don't like it. That's fine of course. It's your money. Go buy the car that is better for you. You seem to like the lexus. Go get it. Don't give me brand loyalty, BMW used to do this or that. If they don't make a product you like, just move on.




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