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  #1  
Old 08-28-2013, 12:11 PM
The_STiG_US The_STiG_US is offline
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Fuel additives to clean out burnt oil...

Was wondering, if you had a small amount of oil that entered the combustion chamber from the intake, should there be any additives used to help clean the resulting varnishing from the burned off oil? If so, which ones would be recommended and which ones should be avoided.

- Henry
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  #2  
Old 08-29-2013, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by The_STiG_US View Post
Was wondering, if you had a small amount of oil that entered the combustion chamber from the intake, should there be any additives used to help clean the resulting varnishing from the burned off oil? If so, which ones would be recommended and which ones should be avoided.

- Henry
Open my profile & touch "show all photo albums". The carbon buildup may be more then you think. Depends on how much oil you're using & for how long. To answer your question - to combat my carbon buildup - I'm adding Techron to every 2>3 tanks for now (available at almost any parts store) This is the same as the BMW additive recommended.
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  #3  
Old 09-04-2013, 08:55 AM
maintainer747 maintainer747 is offline
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Carbon Build up

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Originally Posted by A B Able Truck View Post
Open my profile & touch "show all photo albums". The carbon buildup may be more then you think. Depends on how much oil you're using & for how long. To answer your question - to combat my carbon buildup - I'm adding Techron to every 2>3 tanks for now (available at almost any parts store) This is the same as the BMW additive recommended.
How is the Techron working for you? I just replaced my Emissions control valve because of the carbon deposits. I watch a video that talks about how the carbon deposits will cause code P0491 & P0492. After replacing the emissions control valve the codes cleared for a few days and they are now back. I was wondering if the fuel additives will help in getting rid if the carbon buildup in the engine?
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  #4  
Old 09-04-2013, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by maintainer747 View Post
How is the Techron working for you? I just replaced my Emissions control valve because of the carbon deposits. I watch a video that talks about how the carbon deposits will cause code P0491 & P0492. After replacing the emissions control valve the codes cleared for a few days and they are now back. I was wondering if the fuel additives will help in getting rid if the carbon buildup in the engine?
I believe your vehicle has secondary air injection - my N62TU does not. From what I've read, you probably have carbon buildup in that area. There seams to be 2 procedures to clear this out;
- All German Auto (and there may be other suppliers) sells a tool that may clear this out for a reasonable price. There's a UTube video with instructions they have online. The only thing is that they demonstrate it on an engine removed - I'm sure it's harder to do with the engine in place. But it might be worth as shot.
- It is my understanding that the second alternative is to remove the heads. Very costly and you'll be exposed to other expenses while it's apart.
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  #5  
Old 09-04-2013, 09:38 AM
maintainer747 maintainer747 is offline
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Originally Posted by A B Able Truck View Post
I believe your vehicle has secondary air injection - my N62TU does not. From what I've read, you probably have carbon buildup in that area. There seams to be 2 procedures to clear this out;
- All German Auto (and there may be other suppliers) sells a tool that may clear this out for a reasonable price. There's a UTube video with instructions they have online. The only thing is that they demonstrate it on an engine removed - I'm sure it's harder to do with the engine in place. But it might be worth as shot.
- It is my understanding that the second alternative is to remove the heads. Very costly and you'll be exposed to other expenses while it's apart.
yes I saw the video, I guess that there is no magic formula that will remove the build up of carbon deposit right?? without tearing apart the engine or using the funnel and carburetor cleaner method on the video?
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  #6  
Old 09-04-2013, 09:45 AM
The_STiG_US The_STiG_US is offline
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Never saw the you tube videos mentioned here, but for most petrol cars and trucks when carboning occurs in the valvetrain and the combustion chambers, the traditional way of cleaning is to bench the head. That is always expensive and very time consuming. That is why I was trying to see for the BMW, what was acceptable with using a liquid solution instead. I did not want to use something that is not recommended and wanted to know what worked vs. what was a waste of money in this field for our cars. Some products are good and others just snake oil. But still the only assured way to make sure all carbon or very heavy carbon build up is removed is generally to bench and scrub the heads down.

As for your secondary air injection ports, if they are part of the heads, then the above will be best. Otherwise, not sure for them.
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  #7  
Old 09-04-2013, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by maintainer747 View Post
yes I saw the video, I guess that there is no magic formula that will remove the build up of carbon deposit right?? without tearing apart the engine or using the funnel and carburetor cleaner method on the video?
I'm cheap - So if it were mine - I'd make my own tool, buy a rifle brush, soak the sh*t out of the carbon and see what happens. I'm also only about 4 miles from AGA, so maybe they would rent a tool to me.
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  #8  
Old 09-04-2013, 10:35 AM
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Maybe I'd old (really old) school, but the "traditional" way of removing carbon deposits from a head in-situ is to inject a measured amount of atomized water... aka use a squirt bottle and spray a bit into the throat of the throttle body.
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A bimmer with forced induction should have a proper manual gearbox. Anything less is like french kissing your sister.
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  #9  
Old 09-04-2013, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott ZHP View Post
Maybe I'd old (really old) school, but the "traditional" way of removing carbon deposits from a head in-situ is to inject a measured amount of atomized water... aka use a squirt bottle and spray a bit into the throat of the throttle body.
BITD (Back in the Day) I would run across RV owners that installed a small fresh water line to their air filter housing. They'd have a water pump toggle switched so while cruising, it would mist water thru the carburetor. I was told it was to fight carbon buildup & help cool the engine.
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  #10  
Old 09-04-2013, 01:41 PM
maintainer747 maintainer747 is offline
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Originally Posted by A B Able Truck View Post
BITD (Back in the Day) I would run across RV owners that installed a small fresh water line to their air filter housing. They'd have a water pump toggle switched so while cruising, it would mist water thru the carburetor. I was told it was to fight carbon buildup & help cool the engine.
Would this work on BMW 4.4i engines?
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  #11  
Old 09-04-2013, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by maintainer747 View Post
Would this work on BMW 4.4i engines?
It'll work on any engine. The guys singing the SeaFoam praises can get the exact same results using plain old water. Dunno if the 4.4 has a vaccuum line to the brake booster, but that's a common method for feeding it into the intake.

You need to know what you're doing though; you don't want to let it drink too much. Water won't compress and you run the risk of bending a rod. That would ruin your day.
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JUST...LOOK...UNDER...THE...CAR....for Chrissakes....it`s like checking to see if a dog is male or female....
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A bimmer with forced induction should have a proper manual gearbox. Anything less is like french kissing your sister.
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  #12  
Old 09-04-2013, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott ZHP View Post
It'll work on any engine. The guys singing the SeaFoam praises can get the exact same results using plain old water. Dunno if the 4.4 has a vaccuum line to the brake booster, but that's a common method for feeding it into the intake.
You need to know what you're doing though; you don't want to let it drink too much. Water won't compress and you run the risk of bending a rod. That would ruin your day.
As you are probably aware - I am a Sea Foam praiser because it worked for me.

I don't think I'd run a water line to the intake on my car though. Too many things to worry about and go wrong. It was convenient on a RV because there was a fresh water holding tank and most RVer's have time to spare (retired).
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  #13  
Old 09-05-2013, 06:57 AM
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Originally Posted by A B Able Truck View Post
As you are probably aware - I am a Sea Foam praiser because it worked for me.

I don't think I'd run a water line to the intake on my car though. Too many things to worry about and go wrong. It was convenient on a RV because there was a fresh water holding tank and most RVer's have time to spare (retired).
I've used it too. But I'm not really convinced there's a measurable difference. Grey beard mechanics have been using water for a long time.

I wouldn't run a permanent water line either, unless it were for water injection as part of a forced induction system; but that's a whole different kettle of fish.
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JUST...LOOK...UNDER...THE...CAR....for Chrissakes....it`s like checking to see if a dog is male or female....
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Originally Posted by smolck View Post
A bimmer with forced induction should have a proper manual gearbox. Anything less is like french kissing your sister.
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  #14  
Old 09-05-2013, 07:22 AM
maintainer747 maintainer747 is offline
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Originally Posted by Scott ZHP View Post
It'll work on any engine. The guys singing the SeaFoam praises can get the exact same results using plain old water. Dunno if the 4.4 has a vacuum line to the brake booster, but that's a common method for feeding it into the intake.

You need to know what you're doing though; you don't want to let it drink too much. Water won't compress and you run the risk of bending a rod. That would ruin your day.
The reason that I asked about the water is that many forums talk about BMW having direct injection engines and that anything added to the fuel system will not help remove carbon from the valves because they state that the fuel never run over the valve and that this has always been an issue with DI engines. Has anyone else heard this before?

The reason that I am asking is that even if I go out an purchase Sea-Foam and use it in the gas tank that it may not have do anything to remove the carbon build up? Maybe that is why the video on YouTube talks about having to remove the ECV and run carburetor cleaner through manually and then a wire brush through to remove the carbon.....

How long before this affects the operation of the engine?
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  #15  
Old 09-05-2013, 11:40 AM
The_STiG_US The_STiG_US is offline
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Great statements here, but guys. You are missing the point of this. I was asking if anyone tried any of those additives and if so which ones worked and which ones should be avoided. I am asking this to keep from having to do a head and valve job.

Anyway, the carbon build up is not great in the engine, more like a varnishing and some deposits, hence the additive route instead of an engine breakdown.

So any ideas? So far I got reviews on Seafoam and one suggestion on Techron. What about Lucas products? Or other manufactures? I know not to use Slick50 for instance as they do not have a good track record from what I remember (the original Slick50 formula ruined some people's engines back in the day).
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  #16  
Old 09-10-2013, 08:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A B Able Truck View Post
As you are probably aware - I am a Sea Foam praiser because it worked for me.

I don't think I'd run a water line to the intake on my car though. Too many things to worry about and go wrong. It was convenient on a RV because there was a fresh water holding tank and most RVer's have time to spare (retired).
I used the Sea-Foam product and I have to say that I put it in the gas tank at a fill up and drive it home without any notice of change. The next day I was driving it on the freeway and I noticed that it pickup way better than I had ever notice......unless I was shifting manually. Unsure if I had a clogged injector or not but I can say I have seen a great improvement on an already fast vehicle.

This could have worked with another product but I used the sea-foam
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  #17  
Old 03-31-2014, 02:12 PM
maintainer747 maintainer747 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_STiG_US View Post
Never saw the you tube videos mentioned here, but for most petrol cars and trucks when carboning occurs in the valvetrain and the combustion chambers, the traditional way of cleaning is to bench the head. That is always expensive and very time consuming. That is why I was trying to see for the BMW, what was acceptable with using a liquid solution instead. I did not want to use something that is not recommended and wanted to know what worked vs. what was a waste of money in this field for our cars. Some products are good and others just snake oil. But still the only assured way to make sure all carbon or very heavy carbon build up is removed is generally to bench and scrub the heads down.

As for your secondary air injection ports, if they are part of the heads, then the above will be best. Otherwise, not sure for them.
I just ran across a forum that talks about running your vehicle that has direct injection for about 20-30minutes on the highway at 4500 rpm's in 3rd gear. This is supposed to heat up the valves to the point that the carbon comes off and goes out through the exhaust.

Anyone with knowledge believe that this is correct and if so why would BMW not be telling this solution to its owners?
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  #18  
Old 03-31-2014, 02:31 PM
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Seems plausible. I have zero experience with direct injection heads. I'd watch the temperature gauge like a hawk. If heat is what is desired, I'd think 4500 in second gear is even better, in order to reduce the cooling effect of the airflow at speed.

The reason water/seafoam and Techron work to decoke valves is because the injector squirts the mixture pretty much onto the back side of the intake valve soaking it. This doesn't occur with a direct injection engine.
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JUST...LOOK...UNDER...THE...CAR....for Chrissakes....it`s like checking to see if a dog is male or female....
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A bimmer with forced induction should have a proper manual gearbox. Anything less is like french kissing your sister.
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  #19  
Old 03-31-2014, 02:46 PM
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Just found this from RockAuto.com (a large parts wholesaler):

"Gasoline direct injection (GDI) is becoming more common as new car manufacturers work to wring more power and better gas mileage out of smaller engines. Carbon and other deposits quickly collecting on intake valves and interfering with their operation has been a problem on some GDI engines. The problem was a surprise to me. Its causes are actually quite simple while the solutions vary and are complex.

Old style, port fuel injectors spray gasoline into the intake manifold runners at around 75 psi (500 kPa) or less. The gasoline and air are drawn into the combustion chamber when the intake valve opens. GDI injectors are mounted in the cylinder head much like a spark plug and they spray the gasoline directly into the combustion chamber. They must deliver the gasoline at extremely high pressure, typically around 3000 psi (21,000 kPa), to overcome high in-cylinder pressures and to deliver fuel vapor in a precise, short time period. For perspective, 3000 psi is the maximum pressure generated by a typical pressure washer or the pressure of the compressed air in a high-powered air rifle.


With port fuel injection, the gasoline and its detergents wash off the back side of the intake valve every time the gasoline enters the combustion chamber. GDI injectors send gasoline blasting into the combustion chamber at pressures that could easily take chewing gum off a sidewalk, but the gasoline often does not reach the back side of the intake valve. Carbon, oil and other residues can build up on the intake valve. The valve does not seat properly leading to problems with engine performance, emissions and durability.

Dirty intake valves are more of a problem on some GDI engines compared to others because engine and fuel system design is the primary factor. Using gasoline without enough added detergents and too many short trips around town are a couple of other suggested causes, but to me they just indicate the need for a better fuel system design. It does not matter how much detergent is in the gasoline if the gasoline never reaches the back of the intake valve. I personally like the idea of needing to frequently take cars for long drives at high speeds, but unfortunately, my spouse (and police officers) long ago stopped believing my "need to blow the gunk out" excuse.

Car manufacturers have different, sometimes almost contradictory, theories on how to prevent carbon buildup on intake valves in GDI engines. Some try to leave the intake valves open slightly longer to allow gasoline to reach and cleanse the back of the intake valve. Some think it is better to keep the gasoline off of the valve so soot does not build up on the valve face. Some car manufacturers are creating GDI / port fuel injection hybrids by adding a fuel injector back to the intake manifold to guarantee there is always a little gasoline keeping the intake valves clean. There is likely more than one good solution because there are many fuel system, cylinder head, valve train, fuel injector, etc. designs.

Time and miles tell which GDI engines have the fewest problems with dirty intake valves. A car manufacturer might declare success if an engine does not need the cylinder head removed and the intake valves scraped clean during the warranty period, but the car owner likely never wants to remove the cylinder head. Maintaining the crankcase ventilation system (PCV valve, etc.) and the exhaust gas recirculation (EGR valve, etc.) systems on GDI engines is more important than ever because they are another possible source of oily residue and carbon that could collect on intake valves. With spring approaching, even carbureted and port fuel injected cars might benefit from a tank full of fresh, detergent gasoline and a good intake-valve-cleansing, blow-the-gunk-out drive (while observing the posted speed limit of course)!"
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Bob View Post
JUST...LOOK...UNDER...THE...CAR....for Chrissakes....it`s like checking to see if a dog is male or female....
Quote:
Originally Posted by smolck View Post
A bimmer with forced induction should have a proper manual gearbox. Anything less is like french kissing your sister.
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  #20  
Old 04-05-2014, 06:43 AM
maintainer747 maintainer747 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott ZHP View Post
Just found this from RockAuto.com (a large parts wholesaler):

"Gasoline direct injection (GDI) is becoming more common as new car manufacturers work to wring more power and better gas mileage out of smaller engines. Carbon and other deposits quickly collecting on intake valves and interfering with their operation has been a problem on some GDI engines. The problem was a surprise to me. Its causes are actually quite simple while the solutions vary and are complex.

Old style, port fuel injectors spray gasoline into the intake manifold runners at around 75 psi (500 kPa) or less. The gasoline and air are drawn into the combustion chamber when the intake valve opens. GDI injectors are mounted in the cylinder head much like a spark plug and they spray the gasoline directly into the combustion chamber. They must deliver the gasoline at extremely high pressure, typically around 3000 psi (21,000 kPa), to overcome high in-cylinder pressures and to deliver fuel vapor in a precise, short time period. For perspective, 3000 psi is the maximum pressure generated by a typical pressure washer or the pressure of the compressed air in a high-powered air rifle.


With port fuel injection, the gasoline and its detergents wash off the back side of the intake valve every time the gasoline enters the combustion chamber. GDI injectors send gasoline blasting into the combustion chamber at pressures that could easily take chewing gum off a sidewalk, but the gasoline often does not reach the back side of the intake valve. Carbon, oil and other residues can build up on the intake valve. The valve does not seat properly leading to problems with engine performance, emissions and durability.

Dirty intake valves are more of a problem on some GDI engines compared to others because engine and fuel system design is the primary factor. Using gasoline without enough added detergents and too many short trips around town are a couple of other suggested causes, but to me they just indicate the need for a better fuel system design. It does not matter how much detergent is in the gasoline if the gasoline never reaches the back of the intake valve. I personally like the idea of needing to frequently take cars for long drives at high speeds, but unfortunately, my spouse (and police officers) long ago stopped believing my "need to blow the gunk out" excuse.

Car manufacturers have different, sometimes almost contradictory, theories on how to prevent carbon buildup on intake valves in GDI engines. Some try to leave the intake valves open slightly longer to allow gasoline to reach and cleanse the back of the intake valve. Some think it is better to keep the gasoline off of the valve so soot does not build up on the valve face. Some car manufacturers are creating GDI / port fuel injection hybrids by adding a fuel injector back to the intake manifold to guarantee there is always a little gasoline keeping the intake valves clean. There is likely more than one good solution because there are many fuel system, cylinder head, valve train, fuel injector, etc. designs.

Time and miles tell which GDI engines have the fewest problems with dirty intake valves. A car manufacturer might declare success if an engine does not need the cylinder head removed and the intake valves scraped clean during the warranty period, but the car owner likely never wants to remove the cylinder head. Maintaining the crankcase ventilation system (PCV valve, etc.) and the exhaust gas recirculation (EGR valve, etc.) systems on GDI engines is more important than ever because they are another possible source of oily residue and carbon that could collect on intake valves. With spring approaching, even carbureted and port fuel injected cars might benefit from a tank full of fresh, detergent gasoline and a good intake-valve-cleansing, blow-the-gunk-out drive (while observing the posted speed limit of course)!"
update: I drove it like I stole it for 20 minutes in 3rd gear at about 5k rpm's and guess what...I was able to clear the code for the p0491 /2 I realize that I will have to do this once a week but the savings of having to have a valve job done versus the cost of gas is not even close.

especially since I could not find a Indy shop that does the walnut blasting here in Kansas. If anyone knows of one even if it is in the next state over please let me know. However I am now code free for a little while....
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  #21  
Old 04-05-2014, 03:51 PM
ants_oz ants_oz is offline
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Water injection is tried and true over decades. It works, pure and simple

With regard to the OP's situation I would fix the core problem of where the oil is ingesting from. After that, let the engine clean itself over time. Don't try and rush it by adding compounds unnecessarily. The engine is actually inherently quite clean burning and will clean out deposits all by itself given enough time.

I'm a qualified mechanic, and like some others on this page, was educated in the old school ways.
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