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E60 (2004 - 2010)
BMW 5-Series (E60 chassis) was first seen in the Unites States in the fall of 2003 with a 2004 Model Year designation. The E60 is now available as a 528i, 528xi, 535i, 535xi, 550i and a 535xi sports wagon! -- View the E60 Wiki

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  #1  
Old 08-30-2013, 10:14 AM
Crusher103 Crusher103 is offline
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545i Blue smoke after idle, Valve seals?

I noticed the other day some blue smoke behind the car, i thought it was another car kept driving, today i noticed again a small amount of blue smoke after i pulled away from the light. Its not a huge cloud of smoke but it was undeniably coming from my car. I just went outside and turned the car on let it idle for about 10mins and gave a hard rev and got a small amount of smoke nothing crazy.

Im pretty much convinced 3/4s of the common problems with this era of BMW is due to the long oil change intervals. I got nissans, some with 300k on them doing 3-5K intervals not a drop of oil burned off, infact the oil one that does burn oil is because of an aftermarket turbo and its the turbo not the motor burning oil, i know its not that BMW uses cheap rubbers and other materials to build their motors. Of course this is just my theory.

But im not in a position to spend 3Gs in repairs right now. Moving to a thicker oil(15W-40 or 20W-50) is what i plan to do and change the oil every 5-10k instead of 20-30k or whatever is recommended. Hopefully slow down the progression of the valve seal problem. Im pretty sure it will not but im not use to BMWs yet so moving to a synthetic 15W or 20W oil or even a dino since they tend to be a bit thicker and better with oil burn off and slipping past seals, should not cause problems?

Im uploading a vid of the smoke i saw.
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  #2  
Old 08-30-2013, 11:09 AM
golferken55 golferken55 is offline
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My car does similar but smoke is more white than blue I think? I am sure its just oil being burned through worn piston rings but it doesnt happen all the time, like yours. I go through an extra quart every 2000+ milres though, so I can live with it. Worn valve seals too maybe?
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  #3  
Old 08-30-2013, 11:28 AM
Crusher103 Crusher103 is offline
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Its occasional, most of the time it doesnt smoke but today i provoked it too see how bad it was, and its not that bad actually compared to others i have seen:

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2004 545i
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1996 Infiniti I30t aka Big Black.
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Last edited by Crusher103; 08-30-2013 at 11:31 AM.
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  #4  
Old 08-30-2013, 01:02 PM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crusher103 View Post
I noticed the other day some blue smoke behind the car, i thought it was another car kept driving, today i noticed again a small amount of blue smoke after i pulled away from the light. Its not a huge cloud of smoke but it was undeniably coming from my car. I just went outside and turned the car on let it idle for about 10mins and gave a hard rev and got a small amount of smoke nothing crazy.

Im pretty much convinced 3/4s of the common problems with this era of BMW is due to the long oil change intervals. I got nissans, some with 300k on them doing 3-5K intervals not a drop of oil burned off, infact the oil one that does burn oil is because of an aftermarket turbo and its the turbo not the motor burning oil, i know its not that BMW uses cheap rubbers and other materials to build their motors. Of course this is just my theory.

But im not in a position to spend 3Gs in repairs right now. Moving to a thicker oil(15W-40 or 20W-50) is what i plan to do and change the oil every 5-10k instead of 20-30k or whatever is recommended. Hopefully slow down the progression of the valve seal problem. Im pretty sure it will not but im not use to BMWs yet so moving to a synthetic 15W or 20W oil or even a dino since they tend to be a bit thicker and better with oil burn off and slipping past seals, should not cause problems?

Im uploading a vid of the smoke i saw.
Yeah, almost certainly valve seals. More embarrassing than anything else in my experience, lol. I have the same issue.

BMW is known for making the worst seals/rubber components ever, so that's as much the problem as the long oil change interval IMO
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  #5  
Old 08-30-2013, 01:37 PM
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A B Able Truck A B Able Truck is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crusher103 View Post
I noticed the other day some blue smoke behind the car, i thought it was another car kept driving, today i noticed again a small amount of blue smoke after i pulled away from the light. Its not a huge cloud of smoke but it was undeniably coming from my car. I just went outside and turned the car on let it idle for about 10mins and gave a hard rev and got a small amount of smoke nothing crazy.
Im pretty much convinced 3/4s of the common problems with this era of BMW is due to the long oil change intervals. I got nissans, some with 300k on them doing 3-5K intervals not a drop of oil burned off, infact the oil one that does burn oil is because of an aftermarket turbo and its the turbo not the motor burning oil, i know its not that BMW uses cheap rubbers and other materials to build their motors. Of course this is just my theory.
But im not in a position to spend 3Gs in repairs right now. Moving to a thicker oil(15W-40 or 20W-50) is what i plan to do and change the oil every 5-10k instead of 20-30k or whatever is recommended. Hopefully slow down the progression of the valve seal problem. Im pretty sure it will not but im not use to BMWs yet so moving to a synthetic 15W or 20W oil or even a dino since they tend to be a bit thicker and better with oil burn off and slipping past seals, should not cause problems?
Im uploading a vid of the smoke i saw.

Oil consumption was excessive - It smoked - I was told I needed valve stem seals

My car (didn't pass smog & couldn't renew registration);
2006 BMW 550I – 92,000 miles – V8 (N62TU)
Smokes (white/gray/blue) – failed visual – Smog Report (15 mph – HC ppm Measured 91 – Max. 49)

Symptoms & history;
It used oil (approx. 1 qt. per 2-3 tanks) and I read the history of V8 valve stem problems (internet & local shop research), I was about to have the valve guide/stem seals replaced or drive the car off a cliff. But it didn’t have the classic symptoms of defective valve stem seals/guides. It also ran like a rapped ape (old school for ran great). I’m a heavy truck mechanic with old school car experience (35 years). The plugs were clean and the exhaust smelled funny, also the exhaust dripped clean water no matter how hot or long it ran. I pulled the intake throttle housing and noticed excessive oil. Replaced the (ccv) diaphragms in the valve covers (torn) & read up on the cyclone oil separator (like a Dyson vacuum). Because I wasn’t happy with the oil consumption & residue in the intake, I fabricated a Scotch Brite pad filter with screen for each valve cover vent outlet. As well as a pre-filter for the CCV diaphragm base. This cleaned out the oil residue and has greatly reduced oil consumption while allowing crankcase recirculation. I pulled the spark plugs and stuck a camera down a couple plug holes. Yes, the top of the pistons were loaded with carbon. So I sprayed Sea Foam in each plug hole, followed by a shot of low pressure shop air to help spread it around the piston. I let it sit for an hour or so, then reinstalled the plugs. I topped off the fuel tank with high octane and added 12 oz. of CRC Fuel System Cleaner (part #05063) to the tank. 100 miles later and what a difference – no smoke or water dipping out the exhaust after warm up.

****This note was copied from a BMW Technical Training manual
Note: If the exhaust system produces blue smoke, it is necessary to check whether the engine is also drawing oil into the combustion chamber through the crankcase breather, which suggest that there is a fault in the area of the crankcase breather. A clear sign of a problem is an oiled up clean-air pipe.

****The Variable Intake Manifold acts like a giant catch can. Pull the Intake Throttle and wipe out any oil that may have accumulated in the base.

****The valve stem diameter was changed at a production point (you would assume) to remedy the guide problem. I don't believe BMW would use inferior stem seals after this change, if ever. My vehicle has now passed smog test & no longer smokes. I did have to run the proceedure twice before it lowerd the HC levels within specs. I will use the Chevron fuel treatment from this point on. (See attached TSB) It cost me $200 to fix compared to the $4000 > $5000 I was told it would take for a guide/seal replacement.
SI B 13 05 06 & SI B 13 01 07

**** Day 65 +/- 2500 miles later NO smoke or excessive water from tailpipe - It also only used maybe a qt. oil **** I changed to a 5w-40 synthetic - I'm also adding 12oz. Techron Concentrate Plus every 2-3 tanks to combat the existing carbon (for now).
*updated 8/27/13*

For those of you seasoned mechanics replacing guides & seals - This worked for me - my vehicle - my situation - but I believe you should diagnose each vehicle on an individual basis - Regardless of BMW guide/valve stem history.

For more info:
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/album.php?u=346089
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  #6  
Old 08-31-2013, 07:18 AM
Crusher103 Crusher103 is offline
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Location: Durham
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A B Able Truck View Post
Oil consumption was excessive - It smoked - I was told I needed valve stem seals

My car (didn't pass smog & couldn't renew registration);
2006 BMW 550I – 92,000 miles – V8 (N62TU)
Smokes (white/gray/blue) – failed visual – Smog Report (15 mph – HC ppm Measured 91 – Max. 49)

Symptoms & history;
It used oil (approx. 1 qt. per 2-3 tanks) and I read the history of V8 valve stem problems (internet & local shop research), I was about to have the valve guide/stem seals replaced or drive the car off a cliff. But it didn’t have the classic symptoms of defective valve stem seals/guides. It also ran like a rapped ape (old school for ran great). I’m a heavy truck mechanic with old school car experience (35 years). The plugs were clean and the exhaust smelled funny, also the exhaust dripped clean water no matter how hot or long it ran. I pulled the intake throttle housing and noticed excessive oil. Replaced the (ccv) diaphragms in the valve covers (torn) & read up on the cyclone oil separator (like a Dyson vacuum). Because I wasn’t happy with the oil consumption & residue in the intake, I fabricated a Scotch Brite pad filter with screen for each valve cover vent outlet. As well as a pre-filter for the CCV diaphragm base. This cleaned out the oil residue and has greatly reduced oil consumption while allowing crankcase recirculation. I pulled the spark plugs and stuck a camera down a couple plug holes. Yes, the top of the pistons were loaded with carbon. So I sprayed Sea Foam in each plug hole, followed by a shot of low pressure shop air to help spread it around the piston. I let it sit for an hour or so, then reinstalled the plugs. I topped off the fuel tank with high octane and added 12 oz. of CRC Fuel System Cleaner (part #05063) to the tank. 100 miles later and what a difference – no smoke or water dipping out the exhaust after warm up.

****This note was copied from a BMW Technical Training manual
Note: If the exhaust system produces blue smoke, it is necessary to check whether the engine is also drawing oil into the combustion chamber through the crankcase breather, which suggest that there is a fault in the area of the crankcase breather. A clear sign of a problem is an oiled up clean-air pipe.

****The Variable Intake Manifold acts like a giant catch can. Pull the Intake Throttle and wipe out any oil that may have accumulated in the base.

****The valve stem diameter was changed at a production point (you would assume) to remedy the guide problem. I don't believe BMW would use inferior stem seals after this change, if ever. My vehicle has now passed smog test & no longer smokes. I did have to run the proceedure twice before it lowerd the HC levels within specs. I will use the Chevron fuel treatment from this point on. (See attached TSB) It cost me $200 to fix compared to the $4000 > $5000 I was told it would take for a guide/seal replacement.
SI B 13 05 06 & SI B 13 01 07

**** Day 65 +/- 2500 miles later NO smoke or excessive water from tailpipe - It also only used maybe a qt. oil **** I changed to a 5w-40 synthetic - I'm also adding 12oz. Techron Concentrate Plus every 2-3 tanks to combat the existing carbon (for now).
*updated 8/27/13*

For those of you seasoned mechanics replacing guides & seals - This worked for me - my vehicle - my situation - but I believe you should diagnose each vehicle on an individual basis - Regardless of BMW guide/valve stem history.

For more info:
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/album.php?u=346089
thanks, im going to give this a try and more frequent oil changes see how things go.
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2004 545i
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  #7  
Old 09-01-2013, 04:27 PM
Damon54 Damon54 is offline
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  #8  
Old 09-01-2013, 05:54 PM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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Wonder how long that actually took..
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  #9  
Old 09-02-2013, 10:07 AM
golferken55 golferken55 is offline
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wow t5hats unbelievable. I am same exact issue but less smoke. I will try this . Can sea foam be put into gas tank as well? Is there an oil additive also? thanks!
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  #10  
Old 09-02-2013, 01:04 PM
H F H F is offline
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Check out this thread guys . I think this guy has a great idea here. Its an interesting concept and makes sense to me. It would be worth trying it out before replacing the valve steam seals. I think when my 545 starts to smoke ill go this route , or maybe before it does. its not too expensive to install the catch cans I think its worth a shot at it,, if it stops the smoking issue.

http://forums.5series.net/e60-parts-...p-pics-133703/
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Last edited by H F; 09-02-2013 at 01:07 PM.
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  #11  
Old 09-02-2013, 05:51 PM
Damon54 Damon54 is offline
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Video is of a Valve Seal change with an N62 Engine from a 745. Obviously this is a last resort procedure due to cost.

I have never heard of anyone dropping the engine to perform this procedure & not removing the Cylinder Heads.

There are people currently working on Cylinder Head ON Valve Seal replacement solutions specific to the N62.

Has anyone tried the BG Induction Cleaner Service to see if it has any effect? I know some 928 owners have had good results on their very old V-8's.
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  #12  
Old 09-02-2013, 06:38 PM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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Here is a thread from a guy who has done it with heads on:

https://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=537073

I have all the pics downloaded at home. Will zip them if anyone wants them in an easier form to download.
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  #13  
Old 09-02-2013, 08:04 PM
bigugly fab bigugly fab is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A B Able Truck View Post
Blah blah blah blah
Lol, your still trying to spout this garbage out? Lol


You can't fix worn out valve guides and valve guide seals with magic juice/pixie dust/unicorn farts/sea foam. Still. As much as you try.

Did I mention I have done two more 745 engines to fix them CORRECTLY since I read your silly claims last time? Lol
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  #14  
Old 09-02-2013, 10:07 PM
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A B Able Truck A B Able Truck is offline
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Originally Posted by bigugly fab View Post
Lol, your still trying to spout this garbage out? Lol
You can't fix worn out valve guides and valve guide seals with magic juice/pixie dust/unicorn farts/sea foam. Still. As much as you try.
Did I mention I have done two more 745 engines to fix them CORRECTLY since I read your silly claims last time? Lol
And if an engine needs valve guides, then I totally agree with you. So you might tell that to your buddy that thinks every smoke issue can be solved with just valve stem seals. I don't see you having your kiddie fit with him.
It doesn't matter to you that my car does not smoke anymore and it runs great. It doesn't matter to you that someone can install a catch can and it solves their smoke issues. It doesn't matter to you that even BMW states in their engine tech and emission tech manuals "If the exhaust system produces blue smoke, it is necessary to check whether the engine is also drawing oil into the combustion chamber through the crankcase breather, which suggest that there is a fault in the area of the crankcase breather. A clear sign of a problem is an oiled up clean-air pipe'.
I'm not making a dime off anyone, unlike the two of you. The only thing you and your kind are worried about is your pocketbook, the fact that you've been wrong and/or misleading.
I think you left your binky next to your blanket.

Last edited by A B Able Truck; 09-03-2013 at 06:33 AM. Reason: spelling
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  #15  
Old 09-03-2013, 06:13 AM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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If it works...........
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Old 09-03-2013, 06:16 AM
bigugly fab bigugly fab is offline
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I'm anything BUT wrong and misleading. I'm at least trained and experienced on these engines, unlike you quoting wrong engine literature and expecting it to work on this one lol
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Old 09-03-2013, 06:59 AM
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Originally Posted by bigugly fab View Post
I'm anything BUT wrong and misleading. I'm at least trained and experienced on these engines, unlike you quoting wrong engine literature and expecting it to work on this one lol
OK Mr. Big & Ugly explain this for us "unexperienced" - and try to keep it professional Alex;
- Why is my car now smoke free after I did what I did - without replacing my valve stem seals? And what would I have to gain by lying?
- Why is the poster that installed the catch can now smoke free?
- Why is your buddy (a BMW tech) only replacing valve stem seals on weekends, and when in a previous post you indicated you did not agree with it and that the guides are probably bad? (If you'd like I'll find your post - if it hasn't been edited) But you don't rag on him?

To be honest - I don't expect an answer because you guys never respond when questioned on this issue

Last edited by A B Able Truck; 09-03-2013 at 08:58 AM. Reason: info
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  #18  
Old 09-03-2013, 09:58 AM
bigugly fab bigugly fab is offline
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Originally Posted by A B Able Truck View Post
OK Mr. Big & Ugly explain this for us "unexperienced" - and try to keep it professional Alex;
- Why is my car now smoke free after I did what I did - without replacing my valve stem seals? And what would I have to gain by lying?
- Why is the poster that installed the catch can now smoke free?
- Why is your buddy (a BMW tech) only replacing valve stem seals on weekends, and when in a previous post you indicated you did not agree with it and that the guides are probably bad? (If you'd like I'll find your post - if it hasn't been edited) But you don't rag on him?

To be honest - I don't expect an answer because you guys never respond when questioned on this issue
i guess you think your "calling me out" lol. its a laughable thing to do.
I can stand in front of 25+ hardened technicians and teach an 8 hour class- being called out on my theory and teaching all day- im sure i can handle your attempts lol

I can walk the walk and talk the talk.

I have no idea if you truly fixed your issue or not, how can i respond to that?

Same goes for the poster.

I dont know realoem, he isn't my buddy. I know him as well as you do. at least he has training on the engine. I'm sure he is a dealer tech and doing this for side job money. when else is he gonna do it? when i worked at the dealer i did side work as well.

I agree 100% with realoem saying that valve guide seals are the root problem to smoking issues (after being PROPERLY diagnosed); and you are BLATANTLY taking my words out of context. I said valve guide seals ARE indeed the issue, but on N62 engines you run the risk of having clogged secondary air ports- which REQUIRE the heads to be pulled off anyways. the N62Tu engines do not have secondary air ports, thus you can attempt to do it in the car (if you wish) but if the chain guides are broken, your taking the engine apart anyways.

while I don't agree his repair with valve guide seals ONLY on a N62, at least he is fixing the problem- not band-aiding it. He just runs the risk of having 2nd air port issues and possibly a mad customer- because the heads/valves have to be dropped out to clean those ports (and dont tell me that "kit" from AGA works- if you have to literally DRILL the passages out, what makes you think a floppy cable is going to clean them?)

nice try on the "call out" you a bad mo-fo.

you still dont understand you are quoting the WRONG engine literature and applying it to the WRONG engine.

thats like expecting timing procedure from an N20 to work with a M62tu.

carry on with your "i fixed it" posts, i laugh every time i read them.
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  #19  
Old 09-03-2013, 10:41 AM
golferken55 golferken55 is offline
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regardless of what the proper fix it, BMW engines should NOT have worn valve seals after 100k miles. My opinion of BMW has sunk to a new low. My 2004 325xi had an engine that was purring perfectly but my 06 500i with same miles burns oil. BMW engines should NOT have issues at 100k miles!!!
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  #20  
Old 09-03-2013, 11:09 AM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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Indeed--but it is what it is. They've over engineered and done cost savings ideas to the point that a 15+ year old $500 honda civic is more reliable
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  #21  
Old 09-03-2013, 11:30 AM
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Indeed--but it is what it is. They've over engineered and done cost savings ideas to the point that a 15+ year old $500 honda civic is more reliable
The majority of these problems are due to emission requirements that are constantly changing (crankcase vent recirculation, exhaust gas recirculation, fuels, etc.)



Alex - let's just assume that the catch can installer and myself are correct. How would your superior intelect and vast knowledge explain it to us mere mortals.
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Old 09-03-2013, 11:37 AM
bigugly fab bigugly fab is offline
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you tell me to "keep it professional", but your passive aggressive banter you keep spewing is getting old.
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  #23  
Old 09-03-2013, 11:49 AM
A B Able Truck's Avatar
A B Able Truck A B Able Truck is offline
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you tell me to "keep it professional", but your passive aggressive banter you keep spewing is getting old.
I've just read a bunch of your posts from your profile - many have called you some nasty names because of your engaging manner - I just thought you liked it that way.

But seriously - let's try to have a productive (give & take ) dialogue.

Last edited by A B Able Truck; 09-03-2013 at 11:51 AM.
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  #24  
Old 09-03-2013, 12:21 PM
bigugly fab bigugly fab is offline
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ok here's one:

who would you trust?


a doctor who has never taken out a kidney, but says he can fix you.
or a doctor who has done hundreds of kidneys and knows them inside and out?
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  #25  
Old 09-03-2013, 01:30 PM
Crusher103 Crusher103 is offline
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o0o i have been waiting to see a bitchfest on the bimmer forums

BS aside recently the car has not been spitting out as much if any blue smoke, probably because of the weather going from hot to cold and back to hot so rapidly (NC weather ). But im getting ready to change the oil(trying Mobil 1 10W 30 first) on this car for the first time so I'll see if after i change the oil if the smoking stops.

BTW the additions of catch cans and better crankcase ventilation do work in other cars, I have personally seen it I was wondering what are the common fixes for this problem on these cars and how they are done. So in a sense the both of you are right, if the valve seals are going all you are going to do is prolong the inevitable, but if you just want to slow it down there are cheaper temporary fixes. Wait i think that i might have killed the argument.....
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