Welcome to Bimmerfest -- The #1 Online Community for BMW related information! Please enjoy the discussion forums below and share your experiences with the 200,000 current, new and past BMW owners. The forums are broken out by car model and into other special interest sections such as BMW European Delivery and a special forum to voice your questions to the many BMW dealers on the site to assist our members!

Please follow the links below to help get you started!

Go Back   Bimmerfest - BMW Forums > BMW Model Discussions > 5 Series > E60 (2004 - 2010)

E60 (2004 - 2010)
BMW 5-Series (E60 chassis) was first seen in the Unites States in the fall of 2003 with a 2004 Model Year designation. The E60 is now available as a 528i, 528xi, 535i, 535xi, 550i and a 535xi sports wagon! -- View the E60 Wiki

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #26  
Old 09-03-2013, 02:46 PM
bigugly fab bigugly fab is offline
Dr.BMW
Location: houston
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 382
Mein Auto: Fastest M3 in Tx
not really. What my hard headed friend doesn't get, is I've been in about 100 of these N62/N62Tu engines- while AFAIK he's never had the valve covers off.

This is what I can see from my seat while typing this:
2 N20 engines tore down
2 S52 M3 engines tore down
4 N62 engines tore down
1 N62 block being made into a coffee table (lol)
Lamborghini murcielago engine tore down
a GT2 drivetrain dropped out to fix the body
S65 engine out, next to another S65 engine we are prepping for race
few M20's in the back collecting rain water (ok i cant see those from here lol)
4 N54 engines tore down getting my exclusive rods and pistons/crank grinding.


now, tell me who has more experience in these engines?

There is a difference in knowing an engine inside and out, and someone who "thinks" they know the engine they are trying to "fix"


I think there is a valve guide issue, when the valve literally falls out of the guide when you take the keepers off the stem.... literally no tension to hold it in= oil goes right past it.

Its ok- He is the most stubborn troll I think i have come across in teh intertoobs.

Last edited by bigugly fab; 09-03-2013 at 02:50 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 09-03-2013, 04:11 PM
A B Able Truck's Avatar
A B Able Truck A B Able Truck is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: San Diego
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,098
Mein Auto: 2006 550I (N62TU) V8
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigugly fab View Post
ok here's one:
who would you trust?
a doctor who has never taken out a kidney, but says he can fix you.
or a doctor who has done hundreds of kidneys and knows them inside and out?
Well first and foremost I'm going to trust myself. I'm going to study the issue and get as much information as possible. I'm going to take my extensive mechanical background, the information I've learned and combine it with common sense. I'm going to take the risk involved and weigh it to the outcome. I'm a see it to believe it kind of guy and I don't believe in magic or miracles.

As for doctors, I haven't seen one since maybe 1982 and that was only a phisical for flying lessons. My wife works for a hospital - doctors are human, they have bad days and make mistakes. You should here some of the stories.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 09-03-2013, 04:20 PM
A B Able Truck's Avatar
A B Able Truck A B Able Truck is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: San Diego
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,098
Mein Auto: 2006 550I (N62TU) V8
So to answer my question;

Let's just assume that the catch can installer and myself are correct. How would you explain it?
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 09-03-2013, 04:23 PM
bigugly fab bigugly fab is offline
Dr.BMW
Location: houston
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 382
Mein Auto: Fastest M3 in Tx
I think at the most- you are just limiting the amount of oil to the intake that the cyclone separators are not catching. you are just masking the problem until the guide seals get worse.




at best.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 09-03-2013, 04:51 PM
A B Able Truck's Avatar
A B Able Truck A B Able Truck is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: San Diego
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,098
Mein Auto: 2006 550I (N62TU) V8
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigugly fab View Post
I think at the most- you are just limiting the amount of oil to the intake that the cyclone separators are not catching. you are just masking the problem until the guide seals get worse.
at best.

Again, assuming that I'm telling the truth;
- It is my understanding that my N62 does not have cyclone separators, but only labyrinth separators (one per cylinder head cover). Is this correct?
- The amount of oil used before my fix was over a quart every 2 > 3 tanks of fuel. I am now using a quart at about 2,600 miles. Could we agree that this is an exceptable amount and it's questionable if I do have a valve seal/guide issue at this point?
- My HCs when I failed my first Smog test were around 91 - Max. for passing is 49 - after I cleaned the carbon from my piston tops, it measured below the 49 max. I don't understand the chemistry of the HC, COs, etc. How do you explain that?
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 09-03-2013, 04:59 PM
Damon54 Damon54 is online now
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Dallas
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 363
Mein Auto: 545
Big uglyFab,

Is your shop a practioner of the Cylinder Head On or Cylinder Head Off technique when it comes to Valve Seal replacement & what can a customer generally expect cost wise?. I can't drive to Jersey but Houston I can make!
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 09-03-2013, 05:26 PM
dolfan13's Avatar
dolfan13 dolfan13 is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: lexington,ky usa
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 938
Mein Auto: 545i
I didn't see anyone mention white smoke and blue smoke difference.From what I understand about burning oil is the blue has gone through the combustion chamber,hotter?Oil sucked in exhaust valve would go straight to cats where it would burn white therefore never have been through the intake.A few years ago when this first started popping up in large numbers this was discussed in detail.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 09-03-2013, 06:43 PM
A B Able Truck's Avatar
A B Able Truck A B Able Truck is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: San Diego
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,098
Mein Auto: 2006 550I (N62TU) V8
Quote:
Originally Posted by dolfan13 View Post
I didn't see anyone mention white smoke and blue smoke difference.From what I understand about burning oil is the blue has gone through the combustion chamber,hotter?Oil sucked in exhaust valve would go straight to cats where it would burn white therefore never have been through the intake.A few years ago when this first started popping up in large numbers this was discussed in detail.
Right now we are just trying to have an adult exchange to iron out differences in opinion. (Baby steps)

Normally, white smoke would mean steam & blue smoke would mean oil - but there's a gray area (Yes, grayish smoke - did you get the pun?) Anyway, we can discuss this if someone can explain my carbon/HC correlation. A mystery with my car was the excessise water out the tailpipe that also went away. My gray smoke (in my opinion) was a combination of the oil consumption & water being burnt off.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 09-03-2013, 07:21 PM
bigugly fab bigugly fab is offline
Dr.BMW
Location: houston
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 382
Mein Auto: Fastest M3 in Tx
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damon54 View Post
BiguglyFab,

Is your shop a practioner of the Cylinder Head On or Cylinder Head Off technique when it comes to Valve Seal replacement & what can a customer generally expect cost wise?. I can't drive to Jersey but Houston I can make!
pretty much. we average at least one a month over a year. Our normal turnaround is about a week give or take depending on shop and machine shop load.


It all depends on the engine condition and when we open it up.


does it need the alternator bracket seal while we are in there?
does it need chain guides? we wont know until the chains are slackened. That opens up:
if so, then the lower case has to come off for updated chain guides..... which means also might as well do the center-of-the-universe pipe and valley pan....
if the guides need to be replaced, they have to be machined and installed.....


also things to think about-
struts
thrust arm bushings
guibo
brakes
etc
etc
can also be done at a very reduced price since the subframe is out of the car and sitting on the ground.

like i said, its all about the condition of the car.

Honestly, I don't think i could take a major job like that in until October- right now im booked till the 27th of this month already, and Saturdays are booked till (almost) the end of October)





and as for AB, I honestly dont really feel like typing out a mess of words to appease you- just to be typing to a brick wall.

seriously my time isnt worth the effort in past experiences with you.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 09-03-2013, 07:37 PM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
DIY'er
Location: Greensboro, NC
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,318
Mein Auto: 2004 545i
Quote:
if the guides need to be replaced, they have to be machined and installed.....
By guides, do you mean chain guides or valve guides here? I am assuming valve guides but just wanted to make sure no machining was needed for chain guides
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 09-03-2013, 08:28 PM
A B Able Truck's Avatar
A B Able Truck A B Able Truck is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: San Diego
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,098
Mein Auto: 2006 550I (N62TU) V8
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigugly fab View Post
and as for AB, I honestly dont really feel like typing out a mess of words to appease you- just to be typing to a brick wall.
seriously my time isnt worth the effort in past experiences with you.
I knew it, I actually expected it when the hard questions are asked. That's the easy way out.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 09-03-2013, 08:36 PM
bigugly fab bigugly fab is offline
Dr.BMW
Location: houston
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 382
Mein Auto: Fastest M3 in Tx
Quote:
Originally Posted by schpenxel View Post
By guides, do you mean chain guides or valve guides here? I am assuming valve guides but just wanted to make sure no machining was needed for chain guides
Chain guides. They break and stay together until You pull the Vanos hubs off to get the heads off.... The slack drops off the chains and the guides fall apart. Seen it a bunch of times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by A B Able Truck View Post
I knew it, I actually expected it when the hard questions are asked. That's the easy way out.
like I said, I have all of those answers ad nauseum, but you won't accept them, listen to them, understand them, learn from, take into account from them- and most importantly- shut up. Keep pushing that seafoam idea. In the mean time, I'll keep fixing these BMW's the right way.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 09-03-2013, 09:02 PM
A B Able Truck's Avatar
A B Able Truck A B Able Truck is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: San Diego
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,098
Mein Auto: 2006 550I (N62TU) V8
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigugly fab View Post
like I said, I have all of those answers ad nauseum, but you won't accept them, listen to them, understand them, learn from, take into account from them- and most importantly- shut up. Keep pushing that seafoam idea. In the mean time, I'll keep fixing these BMW's the right way.
You claim to teach - And I've asked questions. Your problem is that you expect everyone to take you at your word. You quit just because you can't admit to mistakes when busted (cyclone separators on a N62 ??). It's not easy to back your words/actions with counterfactual reasoning. So it's easier to walk away.

Last edited by A B Able Truck; 09-03-2013 at 09:19 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 09-04-2013, 07:53 AM
bigugly fab bigugly fab is offline
Dr.BMW
Location: houston
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 382
Mein Auto: Fastest M3 in Tx
I said cyclone seporator since most people can relate to what that is. The majority of most BMW's have a cyclone seporator..... Only recently has BMW went to a labryinth (IMO) for packaging and less manufacturing by building them into the valve covers. A labryinth seporator isn't really something that most people understand what it is.
If I had said oil seporator, you would have probably "busted" (lol) me to make it even more generic.


I teach, you are exactly right. I have tried giving you some information, give you something to chew on- and for what? ignorance, sarcasm and disbelief . I also know when to give up to a person who won't listen or learn. I just recently fired a kid who couldn't "get it"
You are one of them.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 09-04-2013, 08:34 AM
A B Able Truck's Avatar
A B Able Truck A B Able Truck is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: San Diego
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,098
Mein Auto: 2006 550I (N62TU) V8
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigugly fab View Post
I said cyclone seporator since most people can relate to what that is. The majority of most BMW's have a cyclone seporator..... Only recently has BMW went to a labryinth (IMO) for packaging and less manufacturing by building them into the valve covers. A labryinth seporator isn't really something that most people understand what it is.
If I had said oil seporator, you would have probably "busted" (lol) me to make it even more generic.
I teach, you are exactly right. I have tried giving you some information, give you something to chew on- and for what? ignorance, sarcasm and disbelief . I also know when to give up to a person who won't listen or learn. I just recently fired a kid who couldn't "get it"
You are one of them.
Here's another thread - from another forum. This poster is a BMW mechanic - but in your eyes he's probably wrong too. Among other things, it looks like you've been a "professional" wrencher for maybe 10>15 years judging from your profile/facebook. I still learn new things and am open minded to new ideas after 35 + years of wrenching. You must have had a hell of a teacher to know everything at your age. You mentioned "from where you're sitting, you could see yada, yada, yada". Were you looking at the cars from the shop you share or across the parking lot at the other shop? Also, while I've never used AGA's secondary port tool and I must say I didn't feel warm and fuzzy while in their waiting room asking for freebee advice - they have quite the impressive shop. The fact that they've also come up with an alternative repair, that has a good probability of success is commendable.

http://www.xoutpost.com/bmw-sav-foru...dle-issue.html

Last edited by A B Able Truck; 09-04-2013 at 09:06 AM. Reason: info
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 09-04-2013, 09:28 AM
bigugly fab bigugly fab is offline
Dr.BMW
Location: houston
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 382
Mein Auto: Fastest M3 in Tx
That post you linked is just someone putting updated hoses on the engine. big deal? The original hose breaks all the time from time/brittle.
I dont get your connection.
I also dont see he is a bmw mechanic, other than mentioning he was coming from some indy garage.

those are engines I'm touching, lol do i need to take pictures to prove my worthiness? lol We have a compound that has 3 shops in it, whats the issue?

I too, learn all the time. I will never say "i know everything". when you act like that, you'll never make it in the auto business. when YOU CANT TAKE ADVICE- YOU HAVE THE SAME ISSUE.
In this case "i know/have more experience than you" with this engine, by far. leaps and bounds. ive worked on them since their birth, both warranty and outside of warranty.its my opinion that you may have a complex with someone younger than you knowing things you don't, perhaps? It's ok- I deal with this "older generation" of technicians all the time while doing tech support and teaching- Its a stubborn crowd (for the most part) that cannot adapt to technology and newer vehicles as easily as the newer generation of technicians. That can be applied pretty much across the board when it comes to technology. you weren't born with a cell phone in your hand like newer generations.

i learn all the time- I train all the time. I attended a mercedes training seminar last week- it was very enlightening comparing to BMW world. My teacher is myself, I am a sponge to information. I self educate as much as possible on the vehicles i touch every day. I learn from others mistakes. I learn from my own mistakes. I take in everything I can.

AGA's "kit" it isnt an alternative repair- it is (again) an attempt to fix or bandaid the problem. If the ports are slightly clogged in the long tube that joins the cylinders, it may work. but its not going to fix the small ports that go to the exhaust valves. you literally drill them out, they are so packed with carbon.


We've tried that a LONG time ago (like 3-4 years ago) with all sorts of tools and tubes..... brushes, frayed speedo cables, etc.etc. We've made manifolds to put shop air into them and let them sit for a few days under pressure with carbon cleaner/sea foam/ BMW injector cleaner (nasty stuff!) and other 'release agents'......

I can think of a few VERY long VERY intelligent forum threads on the private indy tech site i work for as well- It has been discussed in DEPTH on how to cure this issue with some of the best indy shops in the united states. It all comes back to the root issue. valve stem seals. valve guides. those two issues.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 09-04-2013, 10:16 AM
A B Able Truck's Avatar
A B Able Truck A B Able Truck is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: San Diego
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,098
Mein Auto: 2006 550I (N62TU) V8
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigugly fab View Post
That post you linked is just someone putting updated hoses on the engine. big deal? The original hose breaks all the time from time/brittle.
I dont get your connection.
I also dont see he is a bmw mechanic, other than mentioning he was coming from some indy garage.
those are engines I'm touching, lol do i need to take pictures to prove my worthiness? lol We have a compound that has 3 shops in it, whats the issue?
I too, learn all the time. I will never say "i know everything". when you act like that, you'll never make it in the auto business. when YOU CANT TAKE ADVICE- YOU HAVE THE SAME ISSUE.
In this case "i know/have more experience than you" with this engine, by far. leaps and bounds. ive worked on them since their birth, both warranty and outside of warranty.its my opinion that you may have a complex with someone younger than you knowing things you don't, perhaps? It's ok- I deal with this "older generation" of technicians all the time while doing tech support and teaching- Its a stubborn crowd (for the most part) that cannot adapt to technology and newer vehicles as easily as the newer generation of technicians. That can be applied pretty much across the board when it comes to technology. you weren't born with a cell phone in your hand like newer generations.
i learn all the time- I train all the time. I attended a mercedes training seminar last week- it was very enlightening comparing to BMW world. My teacher is myself, I am a sponge to information. I self educate as much as possible on the vehicles i touch every day. I learn from others mistakes. I learn from my own mistakes. I take in everything I can.
AGA's "kit" it isnt an alternative repair- it is (again) an attempt to fix or bandaid the problem. If the ports are slightly clogged in the long tube that joins the cylinders, it may work. but its not going to fix the small ports that go to the exhaust valves. you literally drill them out, they are so packed with carbon.
We've tried that a LONG time ago (like 3-4 years ago) with all sorts of tools and tubes..... brushes, frayed speedo cables, etc.etc. We've made manifolds to put shop air into them and let them sit for a few days under pressure with carbon cleaner/sea foam/ BMW injector cleaner (nasty stuff!) and other 'release agents'......
I can think of a few VERY long VERY intelligent forum threads on the private indy tech site i work for as well- It has been discussed in DEPTH on how to cure this issue with some of the best indy shops in the united states. It all comes back to the root issue. valve stem seals. valve guides. those two issues.
Wow - for someone who didn't want to type the answers to a few questions, you don't have a problem if it's to talk about you.

I used to hate it as a 20 something when a customer would walk into our shop, look past me and ask to talk to someone who knew something.
Short story; (In my 30's) Took a Pathfinder into the dealer for a diagnosis - I fixed what they said and it wasn't the problem (total cost $500+) - walked into an indy - everyone out to lunch but the kid sweeping the floor - told him my issue, he told me what to do, problem solved (total cost 1 hr. labor - no parts).
I just have a problem with closed minded know it alls. (I'm not age discriminatory)
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 09-04-2013, 10:24 AM
bigugly fab bigugly fab is offline
Dr.BMW
Location: houston
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 382
Mein Auto: Fastest M3 in Tx
its not that, its that your taking my experience with this specific engine and not understanding i know it inside and out. so i have to keep explaining it to you that I know this engine inside and out.
inside. and. out.
and i assure you- i am not a closed minded know it all at all
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 09-04-2013, 10:37 AM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
DIY'er
Location: Greensboro, NC
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,318
Mein Auto: 2004 545i
What are you two talking about again? I forgot
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 09-04-2013, 10:43 AM
A B Able Truck's Avatar
A B Able Truck A B Able Truck is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: San Diego
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,098
Mein Auto: 2006 550I (N62TU) V8
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigugly fab View Post
its not that, its that your taking my experience with this specific engine and not understanding i know it inside and out. so i have to keep explaining it to you that I know this engine inside and out.
inside. and. out.
and i assure you- i am not a closed minded know it all at all
We both apparently have to much time on ours hands and I have to go fix an A/C before it hits 100 degrees outside. So I'll leave you for now with a response that I'm sure you use frequently.

Whatever!
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 09-04-2013, 10:54 AM
Crusher103 Crusher103 is offline
Registered User
Location: Durham
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 47
Mein Auto: 545i
Quote:
Originally Posted by schpenxel View Post
What are you two talking about again? I forgot
Same issue, its quite entertaining, at least i got my answer before this started.
__________________
2004 545i
DD status.

1996 Infiniti I30t aka Big Black.
Project car, Build in progress, ETA unknown
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 09-04-2013, 01:12 PM
dolfan13's Avatar
dolfan13 dolfan13 is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: lexington,ky usa
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 938
Mein Auto: 545i
Go here look at pics and problem.http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=537073
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 09-04-2013, 01:48 PM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
DIY'er
Location: Greensboro, NC
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,318
Mein Auto: 2004 545i
Quote:
Originally Posted by dolfan13 View Post
Already posted it.
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 09-04-2013, 01:58 PM
bigugly fab bigugly fab is offline
Dr.BMW
Location: houston
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 382
Mein Auto: Fastest M3 in Tx
That DIY shows nothing about resetting valvetronic adaptations, and performing limitation reset. Without doing that, you risk bending/dropping intake valves as the motor sweeps the wrong direction/area. I've seen it a few times while working in the dealership. If you remove that motor, you HAVE to reset valvetronic adaptations and reset limitations. If not- it's a big gamble.
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 09-04-2013, 02:41 PM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
DIY'er
Location: Greensboro, NC
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,318
Mein Auto: 2004 545i
I thought if the computer noticed any change from the sensors from when it was last turned off to when you turn the key again, then it would automatically do the calibration?

I let mine sit for 30 seconds until I heard them reset last time I had them out just to be sure they went ahead and reset
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Forum Navigation
Go Back   Bimmerfest - BMW Forums > BMW Model Discussions > 5 Series > E60 (2004 - 2010)
Today's Posts Search
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On



Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:06 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
© 2001-2011 performanceIX, Inc. All Rights Reserved .: guidelines .:. privacy .:. terms