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E60 (2004 - 2010)
BMW 5-Series (E60 chassis) was first seen in the Unites States in the fall of 2003 with a 2004 Model Year designation. The E60 is now available as a 528i, 528xi, 535i, 535xi, 550i and a 535xi sports wagon! -- View the E60 Wiki

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  #51  
Old 09-04-2013, 01:46 PM
Damon54 Damon54 is offline
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Several important issues at work here. Chief among them the Bluebook value of an E60 approaching 140,000 or 200,000 miles.

BigUglyFab,

I would guess the issue most owners are running into is that there are a very small amount of shops capable or willing to do any of their own cylinder head work. Their solution then becomes a $5K + Cylinder Heads off Valve Job & that work is farmed out to a machine shop that we end users know nothing about reputation wise.

It is no wonder people are willing to wait their turn in NJ at half the cost.
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  #52  
Old 09-04-2013, 02:53 PM
bigugly fab bigugly fab is offline
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I completely understand. I run into this on a weekly basis. every Tom/Dick/Harry thinks they can work on these things.
I kind of relate it a Ford F250 6.0. From the factory- it is "ok"
you have to "bulletproof" them with head studs/EGR delete/oil cooler/etc to make them dependable.

IMO, every N62 or N62Tu out there will need the heads off or some type of major work to make them dependable again. valve guides/chain tensioners/center-of-the-universe pipe all come into play with them- and they all need it once in their life.

I have an AMAZING machinist that I use and have built 20-30 engines with. I have also been developing my own line of high performed connecting rods and pistons for the N54 and N20 engines, along with Headstuds and main studs.

(back burner) we are also trying to make a 4l60 or 4l80 transmission mount to the N54 for very high power engines (1000rwhp).....
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  #53  
Old 09-04-2013, 03:12 PM
Crusher103 Crusher103 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damon54 View Post
Several important issues at work here. Chief among them the Bluebook value of an E60 approaching 140,000 or 200,000 miles.

BigUglyFab,

I would guess the issue most owners are running into is that there are a very small amount of shops capable or willing to do any of their own cylinder head work. Their solution then becomes a $5K + Cylinder Heads off Valve Job & that work is farmed out to a machine shop that we end users know nothing about reputation wise.

It is no wonder people are willing to wait their turn in NJ at half the cost.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigugly fab View Post
I completely understand. I run into this on a weekly basis. every Tom/Dick/Harry thinks they can work on these things.
I kind of relate it a Ford F250 6.0. From the factory- it is "ok"
you have to "bulletproof" them with head studs/EGR delete/oil cooler/etc to make them dependable.

IMO, every N62 or N62Tu out there will need the heads off or some type of major work to make them dependable again. valve guides/chain tensioners/center-of-the-universe pipe all come into play with them- and they all need it once in their life.

I have an AMAZING machinist that I use and have built 20-30 engines with. I have also been developing my own line of high performed connecting rods and pistons for the N54 and N20 engines, along with Headstuds and main studs.

(back burner) we are also trying to make a 4l60 or 4l80 transmission mount to the N54 for very high power engines (1000rwhp).....
^exactly why i ask soo many questions. Its not like i dont know how to work on motors, i have had 3 different motors torn down to the bare components to be built and thrown back in the car. But not every motor is created equally. Im use to Nissan VQ series, fairly simple motor, my version doesnt even have variable cam/valve timing, so putting things back together really is cake its just the annoying amount of nuts and bolts.

I saw under the valve cover of one of these N62s and i dont want to deal with it. Once i find an Indy shop that has decent labor cost thats where the car is going, the end. unless its brakes or an oil change generally something simple i will not work on this car.

But again you have to pay to play.
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  #54  
Old 09-04-2013, 03:45 PM
bigugly fab bigugly fab is offline
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BTW, I have a 2004 silver/black 745 w/ 130K on the ticker here with clogged secondary air ports and smoking blue when sitting at idle.
The customer doesn't want to fix a few other things- so it may be another car I purchase to make into a loaner car or flip....


But the big question:

A B, what shall I do to repair this? I'll do exactly as you wish (as long as it isn't completely stupid) to replicate your once tried/one engine/one time "repair" you did on your own vehicle.

I say we split this into two sections:

What shall I do with the check engine light secondary air bank 1/bank 2 low flow faults?
What shall I do to rectify this smoking issue?

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  #55  
Old 09-04-2013, 04:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigugly fab View Post
BTW, I have a 2004 silver/black 745 w/ 130K on the ticker here with clogged secondary air ports and smoking blue when sitting at idle.
The customer doesn't want to fix a few other things- so it may be another car I purchase to make into a loaner car or flip....
But the big question:
A B, what shall I do to repair this? I'll do exactly as you wish (as long as it isn't completely stupid) to replicate your once tried/one engine/one time "repair" you did on your own vehicle.
I say we split this into two sections:
What shall I do with the check engine light secondary air bank 1/bank 2 low flow faults?
What shall I do to rectify this smoking issue?
Tell you what I'll do;
- I don't have a secondary air pump - but Damon54 & schpenxel are involve with getting a AGA tool. I think your shop is near Damon54 - If you guys can hook up and use their tool on the secondary air passages & do an honest attempt with the tool to see if it works. (Cleaning the secondaries should come first & I do have a little trust issue with you)
- If that works -I'll send you a check for $100 towards supplies (Sea Foam etc.) & instructions. Again, I will trust you make an honest attempt. If it works - you pay me back & post results - if it doesn't - you don't pay me back.
Call me stupid!
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  #56  
Old 09-04-2013, 04:32 PM
Damon54 Damon54 is offline
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I am in Dallas & Schpenxel is in the mid-Atlantic coast area.

Tool is on the way to him first based on the excellent body of photo documented DIY work that has been well chronicled here @ Bimmerfest.

I won't speak for him but am guessing our 2 cars are in very different states related to Valve Seal condition. I believe he is now over 200,000 k.

Mine is at 120,000 but spent most of its life & first 95,000 miles on the highway 350 miles per week. I have no smoke issues or symptoms. I am in prevention, longevity, $ saving mode.

I do not believe that the AGA kit we are evaluating does much of anything for a car that needs new Valve Seals & just by looking at photos posted here & looks I have had at torn down n62's at my Indie , I have zero doubt the Valve Seal issue is a real one.
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  #57  
Old 09-04-2013, 04:42 PM
bigugly fab bigugly fab is offline
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how about the next heads I do, Ill just show you the physical blockage that no fuzzed up speedo cable or brush will remove? no solution/chemical will release?

The last heads I did on a 745 it took about 4 hours to get the sludge/carbon out of the heads. boiling them in the industrial parts washer didnt do it, varsol didnt do it, a pick would barely chip it.

First those pesky exhaust valves have to be removed, the plugs popped out of the end of the secondary air passage, drill the ports, then drill the passage out.
Heck, I do it in the valve seat machine with a drill bit.
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  #58  
Old 09-04-2013, 04:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damon54 View Post
I am in Dallas & Schpenxel is in the mid-Atlantic coast area.
Tool is on the way to him first based on the excellent body of photo documented DIY work that has been well chronicled here @ Bimmerfest.
I won't speak for him but am guessing our 2 cars are in very different states related to Valve Seal condition. I believe he is now over 200,000 k.
Mine is at 120,000 but spent most of its life & first 95,000 miles on the highway 350 miles per week. I have no smoke issues or symptoms. I am in prevention, longevity, $ saving mode.
I do not believe that the AGA kit we are evaluating does much of anything for a car that needs new Valve Seals & just by looking at photos posted here & looks I have had at torn down n62's at my Indie , I have zero doubt the Valve Seal issue is a real one.
Is Dallas & Spring Texas near one another? Are you game for an experiment? If all else fails, you may get a new connection to a (maybe) good indy shop.
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  #59  
Old 09-04-2013, 04:44 PM
bigugly fab bigugly fab is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A B Able Truck View Post
Tell you what I'll do;
- I don't have a secondary air pump - but Damon54 & schpenxel are involve with getting a AGA tool. I think your shop is near Damon54 - If you guys can hook up and use their tool on the secondary air passages & do an honest attempt with the tool to see if it works. (Cleaning the secondaries should come first & I do have a little trust issue with you)

Wait, i'm going have to pull the heads if this doesn't work? say it aint so!

Trust should not even come into consideration. I am honest as the day is long.

Quote:
Originally Posted by A B Able Truck View Post
- If that works -I'll send you a check for $100 towards supplies (Sea Foam etc.) & instructions. Again, I will trust you make an honest attempt. If it works - you pay me back & post results - if it doesn't - you don't pay me back.
100 bucks/hour is what I charge- is this going to take over an hour?
Quote:
Originally Posted by A B Able Truck View Post
Call me stupid!
nah, stubborn is the best word.
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  #60  
Old 09-04-2013, 04:45 PM
bigugly fab bigugly fab is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A B Able Truck View Post
Is Dallas & Spring Texas near one another? Are you game for an experiment? If all else fails, you may get a new connection to a (maybe) good indy shop.
5 hour difference


im certainly not going to be paying for that kit, when I know it doesnt fix the ultimate problem.......


hey- BTW, why do you think the secondary air ports get clogged up?
think carefully
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  #61  
Old 09-04-2013, 04:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigugly fab View Post
Wait, i'm going have to pull the heads if this doesn't work? say it aint so!
Trust should not even come into consideration. I am honest as the day is long.
100 bucks/hour is what I charge- is this going to take over an hour?
nah, stubborn is the best word.
Hay buddy, i'm trying to work with you here - You asked me.
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  #62  
Old 09-04-2013, 04:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigugly fab View Post
5 hour difference
im certainly not going to be paying for that kit, when I know it doesnt fix the ultimate problem.......
hey- BTW, why do you think the secondary air ports get clogged up?
think carefully
I did't ask you to pay for a kit - Where'd you get that?
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  #63  
Old 09-04-2013, 04:57 PM
Damon54 Damon54 is offline
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Would not mind sending this tool that way.
I am wondering if this shop is Orion??

Certainly not all Heads can be equally clogged?? In other words there has to be some point & time where you can in fact clean the crap out of the bore??



Clearly they did run into a Diamond mine in this case as you hear the compressed air whistle thru.

Note: I am by no means under the impression that this fixes worn Valve Seals!!!

Last edited by Damon54; 09-04-2013 at 04:58 PM.
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  #64  
Old 09-04-2013, 05:11 PM
bigugly fab bigugly fab is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A B Able Truck
I did't ask you to pay for a kit - Where'd you get that?
you're reading into what I said- i wouldnt purchase this because, I already know its not going to fix it correctly.
I know the right way to fix the heads, and I feel bad for those who purchase things like this in hopes that It will fix it cheaper. when it doesn't - they are just out of that money+ time + the correct repair. some are completely clogged- some are kinda clogged.


just for fun, i knocked an exhaust valve out of a set of heads that are about to go to the machine shop for valve guide inspection/valve job/stem seals/cleaning/surface/etc.etc.


see that gunk built up on inside the exhaust port? thats due to the angle of the port.
see that little pin hole on the other picture? that's a clogged port to the secondary air passage. how is that AGA brush kit going to clean this port? BTW, its about 7/8" long and about a 2-3mm hole. I agree you can sometimes get the passage clean that they ports share, but you can't get these little boogers clean. those just get simply drilled out on the valve machine.


those are the best pics i can get on macro with my shop camera (coolpix s8000 thats about to die from abuse/use)

If i brought my D7000 with a 100mm macro lens on it, im sure you could appreciate the pictures better lol


Regardless, these arent even BAD heads. I've seen them WAY WAY WAY worse. WAY worse. like, WAY WORSE lol



I also have a set of heads ready to go back on an engine, if you'd like to see those (but i would rather not have to break down a new valve/spring/keepers)
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  #65  
Old 09-04-2013, 05:13 PM
bmwoem1 bmwoem1 is offline
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545i Blue smoke after idle, Valve seals?

Man...A B, You're still at it??? Bigugly fab, you have more patience than I. I see I have been spoken of in this thread... I'm from NY, not NJ


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  #66  
Old 09-04-2013, 05:15 PM
bigugly fab bigugly fab is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damon54 View Post

When this came out- i showed it to the owner of the building (who i split the shop with).....


combined, im sure we have done about 50 of these N62 engines, since either one of use can have the entire drivetrain sitting on the ground in about 2 hours or less lol


we both grabbed a cup of coffee and chortled about the job.


Now, I have used (wth AMAZING success) the AGA water pipe repair, and am very impressed with them. The machine work and quality of the components is second to none (compared to other pipe repair kits out there) I just did one on an Alpina B7 last month (yuck job)

so dont think im ragging on AGA, they are good guys- but this kit doesn't work.
Ive gone as far as pulling the exhaust manifolds in the car, and trying to clean those ports out via the exhaust ports..... no go- the angle is just wrong.
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  #67  
Old 09-04-2013, 05:17 PM
bigugly fab bigugly fab is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwoem1 View Post
Man...A B, You're still at it??? Bigugly fab, you have more patience than I. I see I have been spoken of in this thread... I'm from NY, not NJ


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call me a masochist trying to drill this into his head lol.

I have to deal with this on my independent site, but at least I get paid to do so lol
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  #68  
Old 09-04-2013, 05:26 PM
bmwoem1 bmwoem1 is offline
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545i Blue smoke after idle, Valve seals?

Independent site? Do you mean website, or your shop?


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  #69  
Old 09-04-2013, 06:08 PM
Damon54 Damon54 is offline
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Sorry for the mistake bmwoem1. NY it is.

Sounds like Schpenxel & I will know what the future holds in store for our E-60's in short order.

That is a great pic biguglyfab, clearly no brush gets in there.

Last edited by Damon54; 09-04-2013 at 06:18 PM.
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  #70  
Old 09-04-2013, 07:02 PM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damon54 View Post
I am in Dallas & Schpenxel is in the mid-Atlantic coast area.

Tool is on the way to him first based on the excellent body of photo documented DIY work that has been well chronicled here @ Bimmerfest.

I won't speak for him but am guessing our 2 cars are in very different states related to Valve Seal condition. I believe he is now over 200,000 k.

Mine is at 120,000 but spent most of its life & first 95,000 miles on the highway 350 miles per week. I have no smoke issues or symptoms. I am in prevention, longevity, $ saving mode.

I do not believe that the AGA kit we are evaluating does much of anything for a car that needs new Valve Seals & just by looking at photos posted here & looks I have had at torn down n62's at my Indie , I have zero doubt the Valve Seal issue is a real one.
We will give it a shot

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigugly fab View Post
how about the next heads I do, Ill just show you the physical blockage that no fuzzed up speedo cable or brush will remove? no solution/chemical will release?

The last heads I did on a 745 it took about 4 hours to get the sludge/carbon out of the heads. boiling them in the industrial parts washer didnt do it, varsol didnt do it, a pick would barely chip it.

First those pesky exhaust valves have to be removed, the plugs popped out of the end of the secondary air passage, drill the ports, then drill the passage out.
Heck, I do it in the valve seat machine with a drill bit.
I don't think anyone believes (or at least I don't) that the AGA kit is going to do much besides waste time on the severe cases.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Damon54 View Post
Would not mind sending this tool that way.
I am wondering if this shop is Orion??

Certainly not all Heads can be equally clogged?? In other words there has to be some point & time where you can in fact clean the crap out of the bore??



Clearly they did run into a Diamond mine in this case as you hear the compressed air whistle thru.

Note: I am by no means under the impression that this fixes worn Valve Seals!!!
That's what I'm thinking.. I think there are cases, mostly not long after it clogs, where the AGA kit has a chance of working--but it sure as hell isn't going to clear ones like were being talked about that took a drill to clean them out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damon54 View Post
Sorry for the mistake bmwoem1. NY it is.

Sounds like Schpenxel & I will know what the future holds in store for our E-60's in short order.

That is a great pic biguglyfab, clearly no brush gets in there.
Clearly....

My car is really a highway mule at this point, driving 500-600 miles a week just Monday-Friday to and from work. If this method doesn't work, I'll probably try to find a way to adapt an emulator that the 3 series guys use a lot to make the computer think the air pump is working. I don't have another inspection for about a year, so I'm not in too much of a rush.

It's not worth it to pull the heads off to me at this point, however, if I had a decent garage and a back up car, I probably would do it just to see how bad they are and because I really want to replace the timing chain guides

Ultimately the goal is just to get a big enough path cleared out to get enough air through to satisfy the computer--I'm certain it doesn't actually clean out more than one or maybe two ports..and obviously doesn't clean out the disaster that crapped all over the exhaust ports in some of those pictures/videos
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  #71  
Old 09-04-2013, 07:09 PM
bigugly fab bigugly fab is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwoem1 View Post
Independent site? Do you mean website, or your shop?


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Euro-diagnostics.com and another one.
I'm the seminar instructor for euro-diag for BMW. I normally travel once a quarter (at least) somewhere in North America to teach 20-25 Indys how to work on BMW's.


I was recently in Orlando, and a whiles back I did one right next to LaGuardia airport
If I don't bruise your brain, I didn't do my job.
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  #72  
Old 09-04-2013, 07:11 PM
Black-550i Black-550i is offline
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Re: 545i Blue smoke after idle, Valve seals?

My 06 550i blows a little blue smoke while waiting in traffic
After I accelerate it blows a little
Then stops..change my ccv valves.. they were torn.but still does it. What do you all think is up???


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  #73  
Old 09-04-2013, 07:12 PM
bigugly fab bigugly fab is offline
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I'll let you take 3 guesses
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  #74  
Old 09-04-2013, 09:26 PM
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- I understand that it would be a hit & miss per vehicle if the AGA tool could remove the carbon. My car does not have secondary air - but if I had the problem I would attempt to make a tool (cause I'm cheap), buy the tool (tax write off) or rent one from AGA because their shop is about 4 miles away.
- I think I was asked if I realized where the carbon comes from. Below are photos of a Mercedes EGR cooler system I'm currently repairing. Yes I'm totally aware - and this carbon is not oil consumption related.

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/alb...ictureid=38283

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/alb...ictureid=38284
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  #75  
Old 09-04-2013, 10:36 PM
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A B Able Truck A B Able Truck is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Black-550i View Post
My 06 550i blows a little blue smoke while waiting in traffic
After I accelerate it blows a little
Then stops..change my ccv valves.. they were torn.but still does it. What do you all think is up???
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It sounds like you may have basically the same vehicle as I with a N62TU. If so, would you be willing to try my suggested repair? I will pay for supplies but we would need a trusted mechanically inclined individual to do the proceedure. You only pay me back if satisfied with the results. I also assume your vehicle is in good shape with reasonable mileage?
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