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E60 (2004 - 2010)
BMW 5-Series (E60 chassis) was first seen in the Unites States in the fall of 2003 with a 2004 Model Year designation. The E60 is now available as a 528i, 528xi, 535i, 535xi, 550i and a 535xi sports wagon! -- View the E60 Wiki

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  #101  
Old 09-08-2013, 09:21 AM
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So after getting side tracked I'm back with the theory that goes along with what your saying A B.If the diaphragms don't close then to much vacuum in head maybe sucking oil or however you could say it away from valve seals?Once again crankcase leaks could make this worse of course ,but I like you idea of a weaker spring.I wish we could monitor the opening and closing of these suckers.I keep toying with the idea of a catch can.

We could find out how much vacuum or pressure difference compresses the spring.As the engine ages and crankcase seals get older the CCV may stay open longer when it shouldn't ,sucking oil straight into the intake.

Last edited by dolfan13; 09-08-2013 at 09:23 AM.
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  #102  
Old 09-08-2013, 09:25 AM
bigugly fab bigugly fab is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dolfan13 View Post
Vacuum closes the CCV.Crankcase pressure is created by higher RPMs and at higher RPMs vacuum goes down.The crankcase pressure then goes to the intake as the spring opens the valve.So increasing lift actually increases vacuum helping to completely close the CCV or diaphragm.Thats why BMW increases lift to help create more vacuum to CLOSE CCVs.If you have a seal leaking somewhere you will have a pressure difference at the CCV causing it to open.Its all physics.If you don't believe me take the CCV cap off and suck on the hose going below the CCV.It will go down closing the port!If you raise the vacuum and you get more oil then your diaphragm is not closing off completely.Its pretty common on over head cam engines for leaking valve seals to cause this just not at such low miles.I think BMW used such small diameter valves they can't dissipate heat well.Or not enough oil supply.A ripped diaphragm may also allow to much vacuum under the valve cover and rob the valve stems of oil.
engine vacuum is relative to engine load. Going down the road, you can pull 15+ inches of vacuum. the crank case pressure has to get by that some how..... If the pressure inside the engine had to push past 15" of vacuum force, it would be blowing seals left and right pushing oil out everywhere. No engine runs with that much opposite engine pressure (correctly)..


Here's where things work correctly.
at idle @ .8 its going to pull too much vacuum (partially throttled), suck oil past the worn valve guides and smoke like a train.......
but while driving down the road, it can transition to valvetronic operation and only pull a very slight vacuum (about 1.5" vacuum)..... no vacuum load or pressure load/everything works correctly.

then when you come to a stop again, the throttle has to intervene to keep it idling at the correct RPM- it partially throttles and (lookie here!) it goes back to high vacuum (lets say a stop light).......

you take off- *poof* smoke comes out and clears out WHEN THE VACUUM IS TAKEN AWAY (from valvetronic operation) and THE OIL GOES AWAY......


are any lightbulbs coming on now, or am i still talking to a wall?

small valve stems were used to decrease drag, improving on engine fuel consumption. they are QUALITY valves and its not that they cannot dissipate heat.

the oiling system on the cylinder heads are excellent. practically everything is a roller "something", very little metal on metal contact vs. a roller bearing setup.

and No, BMW did not increase valve height @ idle to increase vacuum. It was done to reduce rough running issues.

try again on your theory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by A B Able Truck View Post
The throttle valve on the N62 is not necessary for engine load control. This is carried out by the intake valves variable lift adjustment.
The tasks of the throttle valve are:
- Starting the engine
Airflow is controlled by the throttle valve during the starting procedure when the air temperature is between 20 oC and 60 oC, .
If the engine is at operating temperature, it will be switched to non-throttle mode approximately 60 seconds after start up. In cold conditions however, the engine is started with the throttle valve fully opened because this has a positive effect on the starting characteris- tics.
- Ensuring a constant vacuum of 50 mbar in the intake manifold
This vacuum is needed to exhaust the blow-by gases from the crankcase and the fuel vapors from the activated charcoal filter.
- The backup function
If the Valvetronic system should fail, the throttle valve implements conventional load control.

Great job "copy/past"'ing this
This is again, where experience and book knurd reading do not agree.


that is if the engine IS at .3 mm, not .8 or otherwise like most N62/Tu engines are set at.
In this case (which is ALMOST always the case) the engine is partially throttled, and there is about 20" of vacuum in the intake (which it wasn't designed to have)

Quote:
Originally Posted by A B Able Truck View Post
What if you had a problem with the throttle valve and is wasn't regulating the vacuum to 50 mbar at some point while driving. (assuming your valvetronics are adjusted and working correctly) Could this be a reason excessive oil could be consumed thru the intake? Would a defective (intermittent) throttle valve operation or vacuum set a code or check engine light? Or the other way around - throttle valve correcting valvetonics defects? This would account for the fact that you (and others) say that the smoke goes away after you replace the valve stem seals - because I assume you adjust & reset throttle valve and valvetronics?

you would immediately have a throttle fault/check engine light/limp home mode activated. end of story. BMW does NOT play around with "variables" and throttle control. Its either WORKING or its NOT.

no, throttle adaptations (again) would not cause smoking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dolfan13 View Post
AB able I guess your directing this to ugly?THE VACUUM CLOSES the diaphragm.Extra lift will help close the CCV !!The spring keeps it open.I should actually say a pressure difference opens/closes CCV.If you have some type of crankcase leak then the CCV will not operate correctly.
see above

Quote:
Originally Posted by A B Able Truck View Post
I'm actually directing the question to anyone with working knowledge. I think we're on the right track with these N62's - as long as everyone considers all posibilities with an open mind (considering the complexity of these engines).

I understand how the CCV system works, but the two facts that stick out in my mind are:
- Those 2 springs under the diaphragms have a pretty good compression requirement to allow the valves to close. (I'm sure there's an engineering term for the process of compressing a spring) They require enouph vacuum to compress both springs to seal off any oil flow (vacuum) to the intake, while combating crankcase pressure on the other side. Keep in mind that the oil separator system is basic, only utilizing labyrinth separators in each valve cover. I believe this is the only BMW engine that does not use a cyclone separator. An engine with some miles on it, that also may be exposed to a environment where moisture or sludge is prevalent, will probably have some contamination that has reduced the efficiency of these basic labyrinth separators. If you also consider the older N62's with the vacuum line attached to the CCV cap, then the vacuum required to close the valve is also fighting to override the vacuum from the fresh air tube before the trottle valve. It seams like a no win situation for those CCV diaphragms.
- Now you guys have really got me thinking about the valvetronics and the throttle valve. How the throttle valve compensates for vacuum deficiencies and how the adjustment of the valvetronics may come into play. It makes my head spin.
working knowledge? lol
ok well your talking to him.


A B, please tell the class where those vacuum lines coming from the crank case vent valves GO TO?

labyrinth engines: basically everything past the M54 engine has one

N20
N46
N54
N52
N63
N63tu
N73
etc.etc.etc.

packaging. no room for a cyclone separator any longer.
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  #103  
Old 09-08-2013, 09:59 AM
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OK Big Ugly - Although you claim to teach, there is a difference between a good teacher and a bad teacher. There are also teachers that teach only because they know the material, present well and/or maybe there's a shortage of applicants.. By your attitude and track record from reading your profile/previous posts - I know where you sit. Attitude is everything.

Yes, they may all have labyrinth oil separators - but the majority work in conjunction with other separation means.
Example of just one you noted - I copy & past so that my words/opinion have some backing - you also need to compare apples to apples.
N63TU (copy & past - see page 10)
http://prodcds.bmwuniversity.com/lib...U%20Engine.pdf

Last edited by A B Able Truck; 09-08-2013 at 10:01 AM.
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  #104  
Old 09-08-2013, 10:07 AM
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Don't you think that an oiled up intake should be remedied before looking further?

By the way - here's a link to a 7 series discussion - but I noticed you have not commented? You may want to go there and tell them how it is.
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...=683668&page=2
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  #105  
Old 09-08-2013, 10:14 AM
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Biguglyfab still doesn't know why all these engines a puking valve seals.Guess as long as he's making money repair oh well.Its BMWs Service B.to increase lift dude not mine.So your saying the diaphragm does not close with intake vacuum applied?And that the spring doesn't keep it open?Then how in the fu(k does it work ?If BMW didn't engineer something wrong then why valve seals sooner than a freakin dodge neon?Lost in the glow of your Roundel,or did I miss that class lecture also.By the way I built a 700hp and a 1100hp TT Supras MYSELF .I wouldnt mention this but since we're getting a little childish anyway.

Last edited by dolfan13; 09-08-2013 at 10:18 AM.
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  #106  
Old 09-08-2013, 10:20 AM
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Big & Ugly
Again - copy & pasted from one of your workbooks - this notation appears in several BMW engine size training workbooks. I didn't write it.

Note: If the exhaust system produces blue smoke, it is necessary to check whether the engine is also drawing oil into the combustion chamber through the crankcase breather, which suggest that there is a fault in the area of the crankcase breather. A clear sign of a problem is an oiled up clean-air pipe.
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  #107  
Old 09-08-2013, 10:37 AM
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Quote; Big & Ugly
Great job "copy/past"'ing this
This is again, where experience and book knurd reading do not agree.
that is if the engine IS at .3 mm, not .8 or otherwise like most N62/Tu engines are set at.
In this case (which is ALMOST always the case) the engine is partially throttled, and there is about 20" of vacuum in the intake (which it wasn't designed to have) Quote:

Then the CCVs adjust the vacuum accordingly (if they work as designed) - They are vacuum actuated with no outside influence other then crankcase pressure. (Copied & pasted from BMW Training Manual)
"The pressure control valves regulate the crankcase pressure to a low 0>30 mbar."

N62 = 22 mbar
N62 TU = 25 mbar
20" (Torr) = 26.66 mbar

Last edited by A B Able Truck; 09-08-2013 at 07:35 PM. Reason: info
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  #108  
Old 09-08-2013, 11:11 AM
bigugly fab bigugly fab is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A B Able Truck View Post
OK Big Ugly - Although you claim to teach, there is a difference between a good teacher and a bad teacher. There are also teachers that teach only because they know the material, present well and/or maybe there's a shortage of applicants.. By your attitude and track record from reading your profile/previous posts - I know where you sit. Attitude is everything.

Yes, they may all have labyrinth oil separators - but the majority work in conjunction with other separation means.
Example of just one you noted - I copy & past so that my words/opinion have some backing - you also need to compare apples to apples.
N63TU (copy & past - see page 10)
http://prodcds.bmwuniversity.com/lib...U%20Engine.pdf
I'm also not charging you for learnin'

Quote:
Originally Posted by A B Able Truck View Post
Don't you think that an oiled up intake should be remedied before looking further?

By the way - here's a link to a 7 series discussion - but I noticed you have not commented? You may want to go there and tell them how it is.
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...=683668&page=2
Do i have to post in every single one?
I click new posts and quickly skim- i dont read every single forum/thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by dolfan13 View Post
Biguglyfab still doesn't know why all these engines a puking valve seals.Guess as long as he's making money repair oh well.Its BMWs Service B.to increase lift dude not mine.So your saying the diaphragm does not close with intake vacuum applied?And that the spring doesn't keep it open?Then how in the fu(k does it work ?If BMW didn't engineer something wrong then why valve seals sooner than a freakin dodge neon?Lost in the glow of your Roundel,or did I miss that class lecture also.By the way I built a 700hp and a 1100hp TT Supras MYSELF .I wouldnt mention this but since we're getting a little childish anyway.

lol you guys crack me up
and I have a 700 hp M3 i built myself as well? whats your point?

Quote:
Originally Posted by A B Able Truck View Post
Big & Ugly
Again - copy & pasted from one of your workbooks - this notation appears in several BMW engine size training workbooks. I didn't write it.

Note: If the exhaust system produces blue smoke, it is necessary to check whether the engine is also drawing oil into the combustion chamber through the crankcase breather, which suggest that there is a fault in the area of the crankcase breather. A clear sign of a problem is an oiled up clean-air pipe.

Thats the thing- both of you seem to thing i automatically just think the valve guides are bad on every single car lol. you are also taking that out of turbocharged engine training manuals, that have all sorts of flaps and valves to transition between pressure/non pressure operation.

of course CCV's and basic issues are checked before deeming valve guide seals as bad.
so far, i have had *ZERO* cars come back for smoke issues afterwards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by A B Able Truck View Post
Quote; Big & Ugly
Great job "copy/past"'ing this
This is again, where experience and book knurd reading do not agree.
that is if the engine IS at .3 mm, not .8 or otherwise like most N62/Tu engines are set at.
In this case (which is ALMOST always the case) the engine is partially throttled, and there is about 20" of vacuum in the intake (which it wasn't designed to have) Quote:

Then the CCVs adjust the vacuum accordingly (if they work as designed) - They are vacuum actuated with no outside influence other then crankcase pressure. (Copied & pasted from BMW Training Manual)
"The pressure control valves regulate the crankcase pressure to a low 0>30 mbar."

and you STILL are forgetting that *IF THE CAR IS IN VALVETRONIC OPERATION* what you are copy/pasting applies.

you have forgotten the "German" way of "we have designed it- it shall work accordingly. It does not fail or has flaws"
In the real world it doesn't work that way all the time.
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  #109  
Old 09-08-2013, 11:11 AM
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Hey AB I am a novice here but I have tackled quite a bit successfully on my e60. I don't take short cuts and use OE or OEM material. Every now and then I do something for the good that may not be the best. For example:

When I replaced my LH valve cover gasket and CCV diaphrams on both LH and RH, I stretched the spring thinking it would help ( just help, springs should be springy). After reading the posts here I am thinking my logic was 180 degrees out. Am I allowing the CCV to stay open more which is causing higher vacuum therefore I need to buy new springs or somehow get mine back to the correct spring action?

Thanks
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  #110  
Old 09-08-2013, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hogie View Post
Hey AB I am a novice here but I have tackled quite a bit successfully on my e60. I don't take short cuts and use OE or OEM material. Every now and then I do something for the good that may not be the best. For example:
When I replaced my LH valve cover gasket and CCV diaphrams on both LH and RH, I stretched the spring thinking it would help ( just help, springs should be springy). After reading the posts here I am thinking my logic was 180 degrees out. Am I allowing the CCV to stay open more which is causing higher vacuum therefore I need to buy new springs or somehow get mine back to the correct spring action?
Thanks
Yes - and that is assuming the OEM springs are not the problem to begin with. And assuming the system works as designed.
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  #111  
Old 09-08-2013, 11:38 AM
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Big & Ugly:
A short story -
A few years ago I took an Community College class for HVAC (home heating & air) just because I wanted to learn. I paid a fee & committed 3>4 hours a night for several weeks after work. The instructor worked in the field during the day & taught in the evenings. The problem was - the majority of the classes were self study with very little lab time. He'd walk in - say self study chapter whatever and either go to the computer to sell stuff on eBay or work on his motorcycle in the shop. Me being me - after a few weeks of this - I raised hell. The class was cancelled after that semester due to repetitive complaints (And it probably helped that my wife was friends with the Dean and several college administrators. - You may have the title but not everyone is a good teacher .
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  #112  
Old 09-08-2013, 11:46 AM
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Thanks AB - Could be multiple items on a 194K miles N62. However, at this time I have zero oil leaks and all seal that do leak have been replaced, except valve seals.

If I think of when the problem was noticed it was soon after I did the work and has gotten better but still will do.

I am at least going to get a couple new springs tomorrow. Thanks.

By the way in my Sept. Roundel page 98 Burger Motor Sports has an add that contains some nice looking "oil catch cans" but lists the N54 and N55. I imaging will work on any engine with correct air tubing.
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  #113  
Old 09-08-2013, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A B Able Truck View Post
Big & Ugly:
A short story -
A few years ago I took an Community College class for HVAC (home heating & air) just because I wanted to learn. I paid a fee & committed 3>4 hours a night for several weeks after work. The instructor worked in the field during the day & taught in the evenings. The problem was - the majority of the classes were self study with very little lab time. He'd walk in - say self study chapter whatever and either go to the computer to sell stuff on eBay or work on his motorcycle in the shop. Me being me - after a few weeks of this - I raised hell. The class was cancelled after that semester due to repetitive complaints (And it probably helped that my wife was friends with the Dean and several college administrators. - You may have the title but not everyone is a good teacher .
Ive been there as well.

You're applying my free and (seemingly me being frustrated) way of trying to inform you of my actual hands on experience and training.........and doing it via text; as a way i teach everything. Sadly, you are pretty far from the truth. You cant seem to wrap your head around that sometimes what you read is not how it gets delivered first hand.


20 minutes in front of me would go way further than this thread ever will.
hands on goes even further.
you cant teach the unteachable either
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  #114  
Old 09-08-2013, 12:08 PM
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Ive been there as well.
You're applying my free and (seemingly me being frustrated) way of trying to inform you of my actual hands on experience and training.........and doing it via text; as a way i teach everything. Sadly, you are pretty far from the truth. You cant seem to wrap your head around that sometimes what you read is not how it gets delivered first hand.
20 minutes in front of me would go way further than this thread ever will.
hands on goes even further.
you cant teach the unteachable either
That may be the case - and if so I'm sorry. Maybe you should stick to public appearances and not write your thoughts because it translates into arrogance. Have your wife read your confrontational posts.
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  #115  
Old 09-08-2013, 12:11 PM
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you make me chortle at times lol
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  #116  
Old 09-08-2013, 01:34 PM
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My valve guides were in spec and checked when doing valve seal job.


I Know Why BMW used small valve stem . WAS saying maybe they went just a tad too small.



So according to Biguglyfab BMW used crap valve guides and or a bad valve angle causing undo wear to guide. So when replacing valve guides and seals your only good for ????

So next time I'll drop a LS1 in the thing

Last edited by dolfan13; 09-08-2013 at 01:43 PM.
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  #117  
Old 09-08-2013, 02:21 PM
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I would so love my 545 if it had a 400hp or so Toyota/Lexus UZFE 8 cylinder. So bulletproof.
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  #118  
Old 09-08-2013, 04:49 PM
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i never said anything about a valve angle. If they were "bad" don't you think that would have had detrimental effects?
Yes, extended oil services/additives/chemicals have affected the valve guide seals making them hard, and leaking oil.
I'd say you're good for another 100K or so. by then the rest of the car will be falling apart lol
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  #119  
Old 09-09-2013, 01:50 AM
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What was that I see you said worn valve guide before.
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  #120  
Old 09-09-2013, 06:40 AM
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Valve guide yes. We check every one and replace them accordingly. Or, if the customer wants - we replace them all. We make them in house
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  #121  
Old 09-09-2013, 07:20 AM
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So let me get this straight Biguglyfab your pretty sure it was extended oil change intervals /chemicals that shortened valve seal life?
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  #122  
Old 09-09-2013, 07:52 AM
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  #123  
Old 09-09-2013, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by bigugly fab View Post
i never said anything about a valve angle. If they were "bad" don't you think that would have had detrimental effects?
Yes, extended oil services/additives/chemicals have affected the valve guide seals making them hard, and leaking oil.
I'd say you're good for another 100K or so. by then the rest of the car will be falling apart lol
lol exactly what i was saying in my first post. I wish the damage could be reversed....but by the time these cars fall out of warranty is the time the seals are going bad. And you have to play a numbers game.....how long do i have before i HAVE to do this repair.
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  #124  
Old 09-09-2013, 09:06 AM
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lol exactly what i was saying in my first post. I wish the damage could be reversed....but by the time these cars fall out of warranty is the time the seals are going bad. And you have to play a numbers game.....how long do i have before i HAVE to do this repair.
If it's the extended oil services / additives / chemicals that have made these stem seals go bad as you claim. Why aren't the freeways of America filled with newer cars just billowing smoke? Why is it only effecting BMW's N62s & N62TUs. Why do the forums on BMWs 4 & 6 cylinders appear to solve the majority of their smoke issues with new CCV systems? You don't think they use basically the same stem seals? It just doesn't make sense.
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  #125  
Old 09-09-2013, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A B Able Truck View Post
If it's the extended oil services / additives / chemicals that have made these stem seals go bad as you claim. Why aren't the freeways of America filled with newer cars just billowing smoke? Why is it only effecting BMW's N62s & N62TUs. Why do the forums on BMWs 4 & 6 cylinders appear to solve the majority of their smoke issues with new CCV systems? You don't think they use basically the same stem seals? It just doesn't make sense.
Because BMW recommends longer than normal service intervals.

Most new cars today have 5-10k oil change intervals, only the big German brands(in most cases), Audi/Mercedes/BMW use the longer interval 20-30K. Before we bought this car we were looking at a M37S it had a 10K oil change interval, which is right at the limit most synthetic oils guarantee.

If you look at it, name all the common leaks on the N62. And what is it all linked too, the rubbers getting hard and deteriorating aside from just age, old oil is one of the causes. And its not limited to the N62 browse the 3/6/7 series forums and see what they are saying leaks i have heard more leaking valve covers on BMW forums than any other i have ever been on.

im not saying what you suggested is not a fix it could very well be the crankcase needs better ventilation, but not every car is going to be just a ventilation problem.
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