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F10 / F11 (2011 - Current)
The new chapter in the highly successful story of the BMW 5 Series Sedan (F10) and wagon (F11)

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  #26  
Old 09-13-2013, 09:53 AM
Rototerrier Rototerrier is offline
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Oh no, I'm not into modding. Too many other hobbies...not enough time to go around. I just need it to be the best it can be from the factory. I love driving, but not to the point of modding.

I really do appreciate all the assistance and feedback. I'm new to these forums and can certainly see there are a lot of very knowledgeable and helpful people here.
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  #27  
Old 09-13-2013, 10:06 AM
mness mness is offline
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Did either of the dealers have a '13 M-Sport for you to compare? Even if you definitely want a '14 for the other changes (iDrive, steering, etc), since the '14 M-Sports with 704 won't be stateside for a month or so, a '13 M-Sport will give you an idea of what the ride will be. Also remember that the 704 suspension only applies to RWD cars, not xDrives. Have fun!
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  #28  
Old 09-13-2013, 10:10 AM
Rototerrier Rototerrier is offline
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No they didn't. But there is another dealer nearby that does have a couple. At least their site says they do. I am hoping to have time this weekend to go test drive one.

If I like it, I might just order one and have it delivered to the Performance Center in SC. It's only about 4 hours from me. I might take advantage of that. Seems like it could be real fun.
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  #29  
Old 09-13-2013, 10:24 PM
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Anybody who would refer to the F10 704 as "bone jarring" has either never driven one and/or craves the cushy ride of an 80's Cadillac. It's still Luxury oriented first and foremost (as the F10 by nature itself is, and there's really no way getting around that, for good if you ask me), and whether or not I'd call it "more stiff" than DHP in its Sport mode, I'd say it's definitely more sporty than DHP in Sport mode. IMO technology for the sake of technology (i.e marketing purposes) can be regressive, therefore the 704 doing everything so well makes DHP superfluous and maybe even pointless.... UNLESS you find the added softness of DHP to be of benefit, as I feel DHP is more for comfort than it is for sportiness.

704 will also have a lower ride height than a DHP car as a DHP car is riding on the standard springs and even has the thinner standard bars if I remember correctly (i.e again, not as fundamentally sporty a suspension, instead relying on technology within a standard suspension to change characteristics). I found DHP to feel overall more floaty than my 704 car and quite a few who've had or have DHP cars and driven 704 cars have noted the same.
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Last edited by K-A; 09-13-2013 at 10:25 PM.
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  #30  
Old 09-13-2013, 11:23 PM
schnell525 schnell525 is offline
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I'm going to disregard the M-sport 704 suspension for xdrive owners or those that want an xdrive.

From what I've been told if you order M-sport on an xdrive it is a standard suspension. The M-sport is purely cosmetic.

When you order the DHP package, that's where the difference hits. I have DDC in my 2012 550. For most driving, I'm in comfort mode. However there is a point where Comfort becomes too soft for passengers--it's almost Buick-ish and you need to press into Sport.

It's very hard in a smaller market to even compare these suspensions. My dealer barely carries 550's because no one buys them. They're mainly 528's and 535's. You have to travel 100+ miles away to even try to find a dealer that might have a car with standard set-up vs. the DHP set-up on the 2014's. From what I'm seeing, I doubt you'll see dealers order in DHP on the cars that are xdrive. If you live in areas where you get significant snow you'll never see a RWD car on the lot. It flatly, and correctly goes that these dealers are battling MB 4matic and Audi Quattro dealers. I get around 10-12ft. of snow a year--I ain't buying a RWD daily driver. BMW dealers don't stock RWD cars in my area now for obvious reasons. I've driven in some major snow storms with xdrive over the past 7 years and the system works.

The biggest issue comes down to ride and handing. Unless for me, it's going to very difficult to judge a car unless I place the risk and order the car to my spec.

I know Audi can handle the snow (have had 3 in the past). The ride is the biggest issue. Due to the RFT issue, one must really test drive these cars. M package cars handle better as I found my 2012 535xi non-sport drifted and pulled all over. Rediculous. The sport package in my 12 550 helped, but it does require attention to drifting.

It's tough in a small market where dealers stock bread and butter 3 series and low-rung 5 series. If you want to try a car you have to order one at the risk of losing 500 bucks for a deposit (that's a joke) or drive out of town to find a car. The RFT issue comes into play too. When BMW had it's test drive event I drove an A7. It was a bit soft, and a bit slow compared to the 550. However the ride was significantly better. It's really annoying given the history of RFT tires that you need to consider buying insurance right off the bat when you're in the F&I guy's office. We know that non-RFT car fare much better in bumps. For a 14 550xi with options, you're looking at near 82k. Outside of BMWFS's backstopping the rates, they have a lot of competition.

It's hard to compare models, especially when dealers do not stock any of the models your are interested in. sorry, 10 320's are not going to help me when I'm trying to decide on 80k cars, nor X1's. my last 11 F10 535xi wandered all over the road it was ridiculous. a lot of suspension reprogramming and "strut turning" was required. I'm really concerned about the handling and tracking of an F11 without DHP since they combined the options. The RFT tires really do no help the handling situation. But, the RFT's have gone onto deaf ears.

Audi has no cars that I'm aware of with RFT. Benz has a few. If you have a bad freeze/thaw cycle in can bet really tough on these tires, suspension and ride. I'm considering another BMW...but for the cost of tire & wheel insurance, I can offset the cost of wheels and tires.

Last Audi I test drove was an S5 and it was firm but smooth. The S6 would be interesting too. BMW offers such killer lease rates it beats Audi most of the time. I'm at 9000 miles for a 2012. 4k of those miles are Dunlop snows and I'm not that impressed by the goodyears.
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  #31  
Old 09-14-2013, 06:15 AM
dunccfp dunccfp is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RKtect View Post
If this is true, wouldn't DHP in sport mode make it a more sporty suspension than 704?
I think so.
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  #32  
Old 09-14-2013, 06:40 AM
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geo3515 geo3515 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K-A View Post
Anybody who would refer to the F10 704 as "bone jarring" has either never driven one and/or craves the cushy ride of an 80's Cadillac. It's still Luxury oriented first and foremost (as the F10 by nature itself is, and there's really no way getting around that, for good if you ask me), and whether or not I'd call it "more stiff" than DHP in its Sport mode, I'd say it's definitely more sporty than DHP in Sport mode. IMO technology for the sake of technology (i.e marketing purposes) can be regressive, therefore the 704 doing everything so well makes DHP superfluous and maybe even pointless.... UNLESS you find the added softness of DHP to be of benefit, as I feel DHP is more for comfort than it is for sportiness.

704 will also have a lower ride height than a DHP car as a DHP car is riding on the standard springs and even has the thinner standard bars if I remember correctly (i.e again, not as fundamentally sporty a suspension, instead relying on technology within a standard suspension to change characteristics). I found DHP to feel overall more floaty than my 704 car and quite a few who've had or have DHP cars and driven 704 cars have noted the same.
This is very subjective statement. Yes, I too think that 704 is a bit firmer than DHP, but sporty? No. It lacks the ARS. I would not trade 704 for ARS. I do not care for Dynamic Dampers because I always drive in Sport mode but IMO ARS is the feature that makes F10 feel like a sport sedan. Of course, it depends on the driving style and I tend to drive fast and aggressively.
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Last edited by geo3515; 09-14-2013 at 06:42 AM.
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  #33  
Old 09-14-2013, 07:07 AM
bjayfan bjayfan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geo3515 View Post
This is very subjective statement. Yes, I too think that 704 is a bit firmer than DHP, but sporty? No. It lacks the ARS. I would not trade 704 for ARS. I do not care for Dynamic Dampers because I always drive in Sport mode but IMO ARS is the feature that makes F10 feel like a sport sedan. Of course, it depends on the driving style and I tend to drive fast and aggressively.
There are some semantic issues going on here. When different people say DHP they can be talking about different things. First model year DHP included ARS, and yes that changed in subsequent years. When I talk DHP, I'm talking about DHP with ARS as that is the package I bought. I can't imagine DHP without ARS, in that case I'd probably go with 704 also.

Another issue here is price, DHP with ARS is more than a small increase in price. If you're trying to keep price in the ~$60-65K DHP w/ARS may not fit depending on what else you want. In that case, look at the 704 or even a standard suspension and then mod it with coilovers or such. There are some very nice mods to be made that will make the 5 much sportier than DHP w/ARS. Be aware though that if you lease you open the door for potential liability mod'ing to that extent.

Best and last advice, go drive an M5 first, then the various suspensions in the 5 series. If you absolutely want something more like the M5 then buy the base suspension and mod it.
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  #34  
Old 09-14-2013, 08:49 AM
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I have not driven a 704 equipped F10, but my 650xi has ARS and 704 and I would be unhappy if I didn't have adjustable suspension settings that I could adapt for the current road conditions. Potholes are brutal while in Sport Mode. That said, the suspension on my ARS equipped 11 550xi was too soft for my liking, especially after I swapped out the heavy rolling stock. At that point I added Dinan springs and became quite happy with the set-up. Comparing the 550 w/Dinan to the 650, I would say the Dinan springs tightened the ride up more, but the 650's lower center of gravity makes the 650 a more confident handler, especially in the emergency maneuver category.

I believe the links below are my two longest posts:

1) Dinan Suspension Review

2) 650xi vs 550xi: For those that are curious

Has anyone looked to see if the 6GC offers ARS and 704?
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  #35  
Old 09-15-2013, 09:16 AM
Rototerrier Rototerrier is offline
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A couple of things to note.

1) I haven't hit a pothole in so long, I can't even remember. I know that may seem odd, but here in Georgia (south of atlanta), our roads must be in excellent condition. Even when I drive to TN or North/South Carolina...I never hit any potholes.

2) My 08 actually has ARS (Active Roll Stabilization) as part of the ZSP sport package. I didn't realize this until further investigation. This kinda explains why my car never leans and is rock solid through almost any turn.

3) I test drove a 13 with m sport suspension yesterday and it was pretty nice. It didn't handle like my car, but it was tolerable.

4) I don't think I want to spend the 3500 on the Dynamic Handling Package. I think the M Sport is sufficient.

5) RFT tire issue, as bad as it appears to be, probably won't be an issue for me. Like I said, I just never hit pot holes and if I did, I'm not so sure how my current tires would even handle them. Michelin Pilot Super Sports

After doing a great job of avoiding my temptations to just go ahead and place an order, my wife and I are now going to really sit down and decide on the exact options we want. The most difficult choice is going to be the COLOR.

She wants Alpine White and I want Carbon Black or Dark Graphite Metallic. My current is Jet Black and is definitely a PITA to keep clean and keep the scratches out. I was thinking a Graphite/Carbon would help with the scratch thing. But, I have to admit, the alpine white is pretty stunning.
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  #36  
Old 09-15-2013, 02:07 PM
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Sonicendeavor Sonicendeavor is offline
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Originally Posted by Rototerrier View Post
A couple of things to note.


After doing a great job of avoiding my temptations to just go ahead and place an order, my wife and I are now going to really sit down and decide on the exact options we want. The most difficult choice is going to be the COLOR.

She wants Alpine White and I want Carbon Black or Dark Graphite Metallic. My current is Jet Black and is definitely a PITA to keep clean and keep the scratches out. I was thinking a Graphite/Carbon would help with the scratch thing. But, I have to admit, the alpine white is pretty stunning.

I never get tired of looking at my Alpine White LCI. I really like the way light and shadows show off the lines so well and give it a dynamic nature. The F10 has such a beautifully sculpted body that looks good in every color, so it is difficult to decide. What decided it for me was one day when I happened across a white F10 when taking the dogs for a late afternoon walk by the beach, and admired how light and partial shade played so well on the body, not to mention the hint of orange glow from the setting sun. That was the moment where I decided.
I'm looking out the front window at my neighbors Deep Sea Blue F10 looking mighty fine as well. (The car, not the neighbor. Well, ok, the neighbor too. Shhhh, don't tell her I said that)


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  #37  
Old 09-15-2013, 02:14 PM
RDL53 RDL53 is offline
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never get tired of looking at my Alpine White LCI. I really like the way light and shadows show off the lines so well and give it a dynamic nature.
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  #38  
Old 09-15-2013, 04:37 PM
Steve J Steve J is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geo3515 View Post
This is very subjective statement. Yes, I too think that 704 is a bit firmer than DHP, but sporty? No. It lacks the ARS. I would not trade 704 for ARS. I do not care for Dynamic Dampers because I always drive in Sport mode but IMO ARS is the feature that makes F10 feel like a sport sedan. Of course, it depends on the driving style and I tend to drive fast and aggressively.
You do realise that even the M5 does not have ARS. Does that make you conclude that the M5 is not a sport sedan?
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  #39  
Old 09-15-2013, 05:20 PM
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geo3515 geo3515 is offline
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Originally Posted by Steve J View Post
You do realise that even the M5 does not have ARS. Does that make you conclude that the M5 is not a sport sedan?
Why would I conclude that? M5 has a different suspension than 704 5er.

Do you realize that the ARS was always part of sport package in the E60 - one of the best sport sedans? Actually, many professional drivers praised ARS in the E60.
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Last edited by geo3515; 09-15-2013 at 05:49 PM.
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  #40  
Old 09-15-2013, 06:51 PM
kthankzbye kthankzbye is offline
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2014 M Sport - Please explain the differences in the 704 M Suspension vs Regula

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve J View Post
You do realise that even the M5 does not have ARS. Does that make you conclude that the M5 is not a sport sedan?
The M5 has a wider suspension I believe and it's different from 704 or ARS.


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  #41  
Old 09-16-2013, 08:38 AM
Steve J Steve J is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geo3515 View Post
Why would I conclude that? M5 has a different suspension than 704 5er.

Do you realize that the ARS was always part of sport package in the E60 - one of the best sport sedans? Actually, many professional drivers praised ARS in the E60.
The point is if ARS was so sporty they would have included it in the F10 M5....they didn't. Secondly you stated that you didn't like electronic damping and yet the F10 M5 has just that. So your idea of what makes a sporty sedan is at odds with BMW's modern current view.

The E60 sports package is of yesteryear. BMW's current contemporary view on the F10 M5 is to include electronic damping but exclude ARS. The latter is therefore viewed as a luxury feature for less capable drivers. The F10 M5 is for the more demanding driver. BMW meditated over it and decided against ARS. Now surely if that system was crucial to the sporty character of the sedan, they would have included it.

Last edited by Steve J; 09-16-2013 at 08:41 AM.
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  #42  
Old 09-16-2013, 09:24 AM
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geo3515 geo3515 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve J View Post
The point is if ARS was so sporty they would have included it in the F10 M5....they didn't. Secondly you stated that you didn't like electronic damping and yet the F10 M5 has just that. So your idea of what makes a sporty sedan is at odds with BMW's modern current view.

The E60 sports package is of yesteryear. BMW's current contemporary view on the F10 M5 is to include electronic damping but exclude ARS. The latter is therefore viewed as a luxury feature for less capable drivers. The F10 M5 is for the more demanding driver. BMW meditated over it and decided against ARS. Now surely if that system was crucial to the sporty character of the sedan, they would have included it.
What I do not understand is why you keep bringing the M5 to the equation? M cars are completely different from the regular 5-er. They built for different purpose.

Actually, most enthusiasts do not like the BMW's current contemporary view. I like the F10, but IMO, the E60 had the perfect setup for the sport sedan: M-Sport suspension + ARS.
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  #43  
Old 09-16-2013, 10:26 AM
Steve J Steve J is offline
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Geo, I'm surprised you have not heard that BMW F10 M5 is the ultimate sport sedan. The revolution is that it can be driven as a daily driver, a cruiser or a track car. It is a wolf in sheep's clothing whereas the regular M Sport is, to a certain extent, more of a sheep in wolf's clothing. The M5 has better handling than any ARS E60 sport you've mentioned or are you saying that the E60 sport handles better than the F10 M5? I put it to you, once again, that if the ARS is as good as you're claiming why ever didn't BMW implement it in the contemporary M5. Your answer should be interesting....
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  #44  
Old 09-16-2013, 10:42 AM
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geo3515 geo3515 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve J View Post
Geo, I'm surprised you have not heard that BMW F10 M5 is the ultimate sport sedan. The revolution is that it can be driven as a daily driver, a cruiser or a track car. It is a wolf in sheep's clothing whereas the regular M Sport is, to a certain extent, more of a sheep in wolf's clothing. The M5 has better handling than any ARS E60 sport you've mentioned or are you saying that the E60 sport handles better than the F10 M5? I put it to you, once again, that if the ARS is as good as you're claiming why ever didn't BMW implement it in the contemporary M5. Your answer should be interesting....
No doubt, that the M5 is a better handling car than the regular 5-er with or w/o ARS. It also costs 25-40K more.
I already told you that the M5 does not need the ARS because it has a different suspension setup.
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  #45  
Old 09-16-2013, 10:56 AM
bjayfan bjayfan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve J View Post
Geo, I'm surprised you have not heard that BMW F10 M5 is the ultimate sport sedan. The revolution is that it can be driven as a daily driver, a cruiser or a track car. It is a wolf in sheep's clothing whereas the regular M Sport is, to a certain extent, more of a sheep in wolf's clothing. The M5 has better handling than any ARS E60 sport you've mentioned or are you saying that the E60 sport handles better than the F10 M5? I put it to you, once again, that if the ARS is as good as you're claiming why ever didn't BMW implement it in the contemporary M5. Your answer should be interesting....
It's an easy answer really. ARS is in the 5 and 7 series to extend the range of suspension settings. The M5 (and all M's) don't require that range of driving experience.
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  #46  
Old 09-16-2013, 11:21 AM
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geo3515 geo3515 is offline
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Steve,
Do you know why Porsche recently introduced the ARS (PDCC) option to the 911 lineup :http://www.porsche.com/usa/models/91...tail/chassis/?
Your answer should be interesting...
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Last edited by geo3515; 09-16-2013 at 11:23 AM.
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  #47  
Old 09-16-2013, 11:40 AM
Steve J Steve J is offline
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It's an easy answer really. ARS is in the 5 and 7 series to extend the range of suspension settings. The M5 (and all M's) don't require that range of driving experience.
What you say is true; however, geo was emphasising that ARS was crtical to the sport sedan characteristics of the 5 series. BMW's greatest iteration of the sport sedan (F10 M5) does not have ARS. The reason is the suspension set up performs better without it. ARS is a luxury feature, implemented to increase luxury and not sporty character. It has been misrepresented by so many here. Even I was confused until I investigated more profoundly.

I would have thought that the fact that BMW bundles ARS with Dynamic Damping Control (DDC) would give one and all a clue that it accentuates luxury. DDC has a comfort setting and to achieve this the springs have to be softer than a de facto sport sedan. Although DDC volunteers a sport setting the softer springs means it cannot approach the handling of an M5. If one now glues on ARS you're basically reducing roll on a floaty, comfortable, luxurious car. This has little to do with the term sport sedan.
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  #48  
Old 09-16-2013, 11:57 AM
Steve J Steve J is offline
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Originally Posted by geo3515 View Post
Steve,
Do you know why Porsche recently introduced the ARS (PDCC) option to the 911 lineup :http://www.porsche.com/usa/models/91...tail/chassis/?
Your answer should be interesting...
Overpriced, overhyped desperation perhaps? Seriously, I'd have to scrutinise the details and check the similar and dissimilar features begween ARS and PDCC. You may be presumptious in thinking they are synonymous. My gut instinct would be that the Porsche system has been tailored more towards vigorous driving than ARS. One soberly notes that with the BMW F10 M5 the car is driven whereas with the Porsche the car drives you. This PDCC development is obviously meant to nanny less capable drivers. The M5 expects a certain pedigree and standard of driver because it is an enthusiasts car. BMW keep the price reasonable so that an enthusiast can afford it whereas Porsche increasingly aims for stratospheric prices.
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Old 09-16-2013, 12:04 PM
bjayfan bjayfan is offline
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I would say that geo is more correct, and that on the F10 ARS was included to give it a more traditional sports sedan characteristics.

Note also that the M5 has electronically controlled dampers also. Note also that dampers control the rate at which the sprung weight of the car can travel and in that way change effective spring weight. Most coilover packages have settings, some even electronically controlled. BMW's are just dynamically controlled by a program that the driver selects. Most new sports cars today (not all) offer some sort of dynamic dampers, and it is much more to account for changes in the driving environment than to add luxury, but yes, some cars do use them to add luxury.

Many different car companies offer what BMW calls ARS (they all pretty much have their own names for it), you might want to investigate further before sticking with your 'glue on' description.
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Old 09-16-2013, 12:08 PM
bjayfan bjayfan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve J View Post
One soberly notes that with the BMW F10 M5 the car is driven whereas with the Porsche the car drives you. This PDCC development is obviously meant to nanny less capable drivers.
You are aware that the M5 has DSC, and even the M-DM. There are definitely 'nannies' in the M5 and M6. This incorporates many of the sub-systems of the cars, brakes, etc., including dampers.
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