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E60 (2004 - 2010)
BMW 5-Series (E60 chassis) was first seen in the Unites States in the fall of 2003 with a 2004 Model Year designation. The E60 is now available as a 528i, 528xi, 535i, 535xi, 550i and a 535xi sports wagon! -- View the E60 Wiki

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  #51  
Old 11-03-2013, 09:26 AM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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Got both old and new engines apart

New engine looks like a half ass mechanic had a field day with it. Bolt loose, cam timing wrong, etc.

Good news is the heads on it look nearly brand new

Bad news is three pistons have a ding in them

Pics later
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  #52  
Old 11-03-2013, 03:25 PM
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Hogie Hogie is offline
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That doesn't sound good on the piston tops. Sounds like maybe someone was in the heads for some reason, maybe incorrect valve clearance or something. Are you now going to have to cannibalize the pistons and go with new rings?
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  #53  
Old 11-03-2013, 04:16 PM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hogie View Post
That doesn't sound good on the piston tops. Sounds like maybe someone was in the heads for some reason, maybe incorrect valve clearance or something. Are you now going to have to cannibalize the pistons and go with new rings?
The "bad" pistons actually have a chip taken out of them--looks like they hit an intake valve at some point. The chips are in the exact same place on all three. I bet that's why the heads look so new.. came out of time, ruined someones day, replace heads, ignore chips on pistons and just went with it. The pistons on the rest of the engine are nearly spotless, as are the heads. Will post pics eventually--internet is being slow

I pulled three "bad" pistons from the new engine and pulled 3 good pistons from the old engine. I need to do some major cleaning on the good ones first.

Weirdest thing--the heads literally look new. Intake runners are completely spotless and head gaskets looked brand new on the new engine.

Intake cam on bank 1 was off by about 45*, which is obviously concerning. The bolt holding the cam gear on that cam was no where near as tight as the rest--doesn't look like previous mechanic torqued anything to any kind of spec. No way this engine came out of a running car.

Cylinders look to be in great condition, as do all the bearings I have looked at, so at least that's good

Last edited by schpenxel; 11-03-2013 at 04:21 PM.
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  #54  
Old 11-03-2013, 05:58 PM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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Izzy!



New toy--60,000 BTU forced air heater to knock the dew off this morning







First thing was to remove crank bolt--this is the crank holder tool in the timing kit



It bolts on where the dampener usually goes







The other side bolts on where the AC tensioner goes



It includes a spacer to get everything lined up correctly



Installed







Intake ports you could eat off of--at this point I started thinking someone had been in this engine before























Exhaust ports aren't perfect, but they are really clean considering



In order to hold the engine while I broke the bolt loose, I chained one side to the arm of the hoist, and the other side of the engine to a leg of the hoist







Orange strap in the bottom right goes to the leg of the hoist.. I needed every bit of that 6' pipe



Not sure why my pics are all out of order--more of the intake ports



Ready to start pulling..



Ta-da! It took about 180* of very difficult turning before it finally was loose enough to turn by hand. I have a video I will post later







Exhaust ports









Last edited by schpenxel; 11-03-2013 at 06:14 PM.
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  #55  
Old 11-03-2013, 05:59 PM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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Removing the hub thing--not sure if you're supposed to have to use a puller, but I didn't feel like fighting with it so I did it this way



Front timing cover off (this is still the old engine by the way--all pics have been EXCEPT the intake port ones)















Need to look up the tensioner part numbers sometime and see if they are originals or not



























Lower timing cover, upper seal--THIS is where the "coolant crossover pipe" leak occurs. The black seal going around the crossover pipe seals from the block to the lower timing cover



















Here is where it seals on the timing cover side







Pulling out the aftermarket pipe







More timing chain parts--these pics are all out of whack, gah









Last edited by schpenxel; 11-03-2013 at 06:17 PM.
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  #56  
Old 11-03-2013, 05:59 PM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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more of the same--pretty sure this is still on the "old" engine



























This spirolock (can't remember how to spell it) was a pain to get back out


And here is where it seals on the block side















---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ALRIGHT HERE IS THE NEW ENGINE


Here was my first sign something wasn't right--check out the "slots" on the cams. The exhaust cam is where it should be, with the slots going vertical. The other cam is off 90*. Later when I removed the timing gear bolts, the bolt on the cam that's out was very loose compared to the rest







Here's the other side--timing is right on this side



















More of the intake runners































Last edited by schpenxel; 11-03-2013 at 06:22 PM.
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  #57  
Old 11-03-2013, 06:00 PM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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Crank holding tool installed to the new engine--decided to do it first thing on this one (this is out of order for some reason, again)







Fast forward to bank 1 head coming off



Cylinders look great, pistons look clean, they're just missing a little piece..







Can't believe the cylinders are in that good of shape. How the heck did that piece coming off not destroy them?? This was all on bank 1. But, bank 2 had the messed up timing. Very weird

Bank 2 pistons/cylinders look really good:















Believe it or not, these are USED head gaskets. Well, maybe not used, but they were the ones on the engine.







Looks like the crossover pipe was leaking on the new one as well..















Looks pretty nasty



Here's what the BMW crossover pipe seal looked like--pretty nasty



























Next, I stopped taking pictures but took a lot of video. This is trash I found in the oil pump pick up screen.. lovely. Not totally sure what it is

Last edited by schpenxel; 11-03-2013 at 06:28 PM.
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  #58  
Old 11-03-2013, 06:01 PM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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Oil pan off, new engine still



Oil pick up screen, thank god it had one



Pulled the dinged up pistons out - #8



Not sure what # this is



#5



Rod bearings for those--they're slick as can be in person. Don't look too awesome in pictures though



















And here's everything covered back up, until next week..







See how clean those heads look? I am going to take them by a machine shop that specializes in German cars anyways just to look them over. I have a feeling they've already been rebuilt though. They are either new, or they have been cleaned by someone with a real washer--they're too much cleaner than everything else not to be



See how the valvetronics hardware is a little different color? I really wonder if these aren't new heads







Piston out of "old" engine, so I can start cleaning it up



Some new, some old







DINNER!

Last edited by schpenxel; 11-03-2013 at 06:32 PM.
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  #59  
Old 11-03-2013, 06:34 PM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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And last but not least--video of what it takes to get that crank bolt off. It will be up in a few hours, it's still uploading

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  #60  
Old 11-04-2013, 10:46 AM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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Update: Thankfully someone else figured out where the rings come from on this engine. Turns out you can buy an entire SET for $200. SOLD!

Thanks to Gostra for this one!

Quote:
Originally Posted by GOSTRA View Post
Damon, the mileage on the engine is 145K. The body and interior on this car are flawless being from Georgia, and the price was only 4K for the car (see photos). I couldn't resist. Cylinders had a minute amount of aluminum removed and were then polished with Sun silicone compound to bring out the silicone on which the rings ride. I will post photos of the block in a few days. FYI: rings for this car are availble through Hastings for 1/10 what BMW charges, Part No. 2C5211 (Strandard). I tried without success to get the main bearings through Federal Mogul (who made the orginals as well the news ones I have) but they would not give me any information on the parts. I could not locate these size bearings from any of the major bearing manufacturers. They will probably be available in a few years. Valve stem seals have been replaced. Cylinders surfaces were flat. Couldn't get a feeler gauge under a precision straightedge so no machining was necessary.
- www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=703703

edit: I need to do more research and confirm this is actually the right rings for it. Rings for alusil engines have to be coated or something special like that--stay tuned

Last edited by schpenxel; 11-04-2013 at 11:20 AM.
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  #61  
Old 11-04-2013, 01:09 PM
limeykraut limeykraut is offline
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FWIW, I'm in the middle of a project for a beater car for my 17 year old, and pulled the head from it. It had blown the head gasket, and the intake side was clean as a whistle (steam cleaned by coolant when head blew), and the exhaust ports were 'normal/dirty'. I used our steamer at work to clean the head prior to it getting surfaced, and it came out surprisingly nice. I lapped in the valves, and just put it all together. So far so good - but your interest/concern on your heads may be similar - someone blew head gasket(s), had heads surfaced, put it together wrong, (90* out and chipped pistons) and just quit....maybe?? I didn't see the difference in color on timing gear you mentioned, but could it be a variance in the amount of varnish?

Also, I'm impressed by the general condition of the internals of your 'old' engine with 200K+. I've seen worse on 80K cars! Testament to maintenance! Kudos!!

Oh, and how do I wrangle an invite to dinner next time?
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  #62  
Old 11-04-2013, 01:25 PM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by limeykraut View Post
FWIW, I'm in the middle of a project for a beater car for my 17 year old, and pulled the head from it. It had blown the head gasket, and the intake side was clean as a whistle (steam cleaned by coolant when head blew), and the exhaust ports were 'normal/dirty'. I used our steamer at work to clean the head prior to it getting surfaced, and it came out surprisingly nice. I lapped in the valves, and just put it all together. So far so good - but your interest/concern on your heads may be similar - someone blew head gasket(s), had heads surfaced, put it together wrong, (90* out and chipped pistons) and just quit....maybe?? I didn't see the difference in color on timing gear you mentioned, but could it be a variance in the amount of varnish?

Also, I'm impressed by the general condition of the internals of your 'old' engine with 200K+. I've seen worse on 80K cars! Testament to maintenance! Kudos!!

Oh, and how do I wrangle an invite to dinner next time?
Good idea on the steam cleaner-wonder if it'll work on the block deck surface also?

Yeah these engines would last for ever if they had decent seals--that's really the root problem for the secondary air system issues as well. The block is made from Alusil which really will last about forever. The bearings look to be in good shape as well. I am going to do some measuring on the pistons this evening and see how much they have worn, but I think they also have basically zero wear. Maybe I can check out the rings tomorrow as well, if I can find time to run by my parents place and check the gap.

lol, I'm looking forward to going home just to eat some more of that pie.. anyways...

Take a look at the cam bearing caps vs. the rest of the head.. the head casting itself looks almost new (silver'ish) while the cams/valvetronic setup looks like it has a layer of brown varnish or something on it.. I need to get up to the machine shop tomorrow and get their take.

The weird thing is that the timing was CORRECT on the side that had the chipped pistons. The timing was wrong on the side that looks just about perfect--not sure how the heck that happens

I think it came out of time prior this last assembly job someone hacked through. To fix it, someone took it apart, put new heads (or had them rebuilt) on and new gaskets, then put it back together but didn't know what they were doing. I personally think it would have ran with the pistons like that. Anyways, then once they got it all back together and it either didn't run or ran horribly because of the timing, they said screw it and sold the car in pieces. Or maybe it ran fine at first then the timing slipped or something and when it stopped running that was the last straw, who knows.

Just a working theory

Last edited by schpenxel; 11-04-2013 at 01:27 PM.
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  #63  
Old 11-04-2013, 01:43 PM
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A B Able Truck A B Able Truck is offline
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Maybe it hydrolocked while cleaning their secondary air passages? - ouch
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  #64  
Old 11-04-2013, 01:44 PM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A B Able Truck View Post
Maybe it hydrolocked while cleaning their secondary air passages? - ouch
lol

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  #65  
Old 11-04-2013, 02:42 PM
Cre8 Cre8 is offline
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Glad to see you making headway. Huge undertaking, I have a headache looking though all the pics trying to wrap my head around this project.
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  #66  
Old 11-04-2013, 06:36 PM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cre8 View Post
Glad to see you making headway. Huge undertaking, I have a headache looking though all the pics trying to wrap my head around this project.
I think the number of pictures makes it confusing honestly--would probably be easier just seeing the major steps instead of all the little ones.. I may do a summary if I can ever get this damn'd thing finished, lol

I've spent tonight researching piston rings for these cylinders. The top ring on pistons from both engines have "GOE B" stamped on them. I believe this is for Goetze, a piston manufacturer and partner with federal mogul. I went through their entire 1200 page catalog and they basically have rings for every BMW engine EXCEPT this one. Gah.

In researching the part number that was posted for the rings from Hastings (2C5211) I am even more confused. They show up as rings for a 735i, but all of the dimensions check out as exactly what I need. I checked realoem for that vehicle to see what it had to say, and it specifically called out that the rings for that car were for an Alusil block. However, the part number on these vs. the part number for the 745/545 did not match, so I'm just not sure. I think they will actually work fine, but would rather keep my risks to a minimum.

So, I'm not sure if it's just a case of different part numbers or manufacturers for the same thing, or if it truly is the wrong part. Clearly it worked for someone else on here for their rebuild (or did in the beginning anyways..), but since he isn't around to comment, we have no way to know that that engine is still going strong.

The problem is engines with Alusil blocks have to have rings with a special coating on them, I believe it's some sort of Chrome coating, so that they'll hold up to the silicone in the cylinders. Regular rings would be destroyed rather quickly from what I have read. If you use the wrong rings, it'll run just fine for a little bit.. then, not so much.

More research is needed! There is a relatively local machine shop that works with a lot of German cars that I'm going to try to call tomorrow to get their take on it.

Last edited by schpenxel; 11-04-2013 at 06:38 PM.
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  #67  
Old 11-04-2013, 08:23 PM
bandit1730 bandit1730 is offline
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I could get an used N62 engine locally here in South FL for about 3K, but I figured that I know my engine's history and didn't want to take a chance with an used one. In your case scenario, I know you had no choice because of the cracked block (Just hope you didn't over pay for your "new" engine as it looks like is giving you a run for your money. I would be thinking of getting at least 1/2 of your money back).

Note: I was hosting visitors from NY and Orlando this weekend and didn't have a chance to touch my engine, but have been following your progress. Keep it up... this is one for the records!
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  #68  
Old 11-04-2013, 08:26 PM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bandit1730 View Post
I could get an used N62 engine locally here in South FL for about 3K, but I figured that I know my engine's history and didn't want to take a chance with an used one. In your case scenario, I know you had no choice because of the cracked block (Just hope you didn't over pay for your "new" engine as it looks like is giving you a run for your money. I would be thinking of getting at least 1/2 of your money back).

Note: I was hosting visitors from NY and Orlando this weekend and didn't have a chance to touch my engine, but have been following your progress. Keep it up... this is one for the records!

Paid $500 for the engine. Seller is going to give me some free parts off of the next 745 or 545 he parts out to help make up for it--if I can find a set of rings for a decent price I think I can make it work. It's going to be more than I wanted to spend, but if I know the engine is in great condition after this, that will help justify it for sure
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  #69  
Old 11-04-2013, 08:35 PM
bandit1730 bandit1730 is offline
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I will be getting +0.25 piston rings
http://parts.bmwofsouthatlanta.com/p...257549511.html

$157.14 from ECS Tuning http://www.ecstuning.com/ES21487/
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  #70  
Old 11-04-2013, 08:48 PM
bandit1730 bandit1730 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schpenxel View Post
Paid $500 for the engine. Seller is going to give me some free parts off of the next 745 or 545 he parts out to help make up for it--if I can find a set of rings for a decent price I think I can make it work. It's going to be more than I wanted to spend, but if I know the engine is in great condition after this, that will help justify it for sure

$500.00 was a good/fair price.
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  #71  
Old 11-05-2013, 08:06 AM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bandit1730 View Post
I will be getting +0.25 piston rings
http://parts.bmwofsouthatlanta.com/p...257549511.html

$157.14 from ECS Tuning http://www.ecstuning.com/ES21487/
That's PER piston, you know that, right? $1200+ for a full set of rings..

The original manufacturer is Goetze and I think I have found a company in the UK that can supply the original Goetze ones for about $300 for a full set. Stay tuned

edit: Who are you having bore/prep the cylinders? Make sure they know how to work with Alusil cylinders. They require a finishing process that is different than any other material. They ARE NOT HONED LIKE NORMAL STEEL CYLINDERS. Google Sunnex AN30 and you should find plenty on the Porsche boards

Last edited by schpenxel; 11-05-2013 at 08:09 AM.
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  #72  
Old 11-05-2013, 08:07 AM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bandit1730 View Post
$500.00 was a good/fair price.
I thought so too--I was hoping it was a GREAT price if I had gotten this engine without the piston issues, but it is what it is at this point
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  #73  
Old 11-05-2013, 09:56 AM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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Alright, I think I have the piston ring situation figured out. Here's the skinny:

Basically, the part number that was posted earlier (2C5211 from Hastings) APPEARS to be correct. Here is their catalog for anyone interested. They are about $200 and supposedly ship in 1 to 2 days from perfectengine.com

http://www.hastingsmfg.com/Master_Ca...er_Catalog.pdf

The "2C" portion of that part number means all of the rings are chrome plated, which is what you want on Alusil cylinders. The measurements should be 92mm diameter, 1.2mm thick top ring, 1.5mm second ring, 2mm oil ring set, which is exactly what that part number is. These measurements are both in the BMW tech specs and I measured the pistons/rings from both engines. Everything matches.

So, I'm planning on ordering a set. I want to take one more look at the block just to be sure there are any major nicks in it or anything prior to ordering them

I also heard back from Sunnen on their silicon honing products. Basically the "AN30" compound is $50, and the felt pads you need to do the job their way are about $60, both are in stock. On other forums, people have used regular felt pads wrapped around regular honing stones successfully. I'm hoping a machine shop can just take care of it so I don't have to deal with it.

I still have to call that machine shop and talk to them about what they would charge to do some work for me--if they are reasonably priced on doing the honing/decking/inspecting the block, I may bite the bullet and pull all the internals out. The only bad part is all the rod/main bearing bolts are TTY, so I'd have to replace them all if I remove them. At some point I have to draw the line for what I will and won't replace--if I keep saying "might as well replace it while it's out.." I'm going to end up with a new engine and have way more in it than it's worth

Last edited by schpenxel; 11-05-2013 at 10:15 AM.
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  #74  
Old 11-05-2013, 01:55 PM
limeykraut limeykraut is offline
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Ok, I see your point about the silver/new vs varnished parts. There's no way those heads weren't apart - maybe they did like i did and had the heads surfaced. I simply have access at work to a steamer, so I cleaned everything else while the head was at the machine shop.
So the good side on timing had the bad pistons...definitely had to have been prior to the last assembly - wouldn't the valves show signs of impact, especially of the severity to chip pistons? Perhaps the timing that was off on the other cam just was flip-a-coin lucky not to cause more damage??

Does your engine have the color coded rods/mains? Something about color dots on the crank and/or block?
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  #75  
Old 11-05-2013, 02:12 PM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by limeykraut View Post
So the good side on timing had the bad pistons...definitely had to have been prior to the last assembly - wouldn't the valves show signs of impact, especially of the severity to chip pistons? Perhaps the timing that was off on the other cam just was flip-a-coin lucky not to cause more damage??
I think what happened is the "impact" (timing slipped or whatever) happened prior to the current heads being installed. I think that some sort of impact happened and messed up the valves/heads/pistons of the old/original set of heads. Then some idiot replaced the heads and tried to get away with not replacing the pistons that had obvious chunks taken out of them (personally I think the engine would have ran in that condition, albeit not well..) and then did a horrible job re-assembling it to top it off. That's the only thing I have been able to come up with. After it still either didn't run or didn't run right, someone had had enough and parted the car out I bet. The cylinders are in too good of shape for it to have been ran much if at all with the pistons like that, in my opinion anyways.

If this damage had happened with these same heads installed, I can't see any way possible for those pieces of pistons to NOT make a mess of the heads. That's probably why they look so new (because they are..)

Quote:
Originally Posted by limeykraut View Post
Does your engine have the color coded rods/mains? Something about color dots on the crank and/or block?
Yeah the block has I believe it's 5 letters stamped on it for the different sizes. It looks something like YGGGG, meaning the first main bearing is the yellow version, next 4 are green. Then the crank has a stamp on it for which "stage" it is. i.e. whether it has been ground down or not.

I think the rod bearings are just two colors but they have standard + 2 under sized bearings for those also. The colors are for the outside bearing diameter if I understand it correctly (i.e. how big the main bearing journals on the block are)

Here's what they mean:

11 21 Crankshaft and Bearings N62

Ground sizes of main bearing journals

Bearing point 1

Standard yellow
mm
69.974
+0.006

Standard green
mm
69.967
+0.006

Original violet
mm
69.961
+0.005

Stage 1 (U 0.25) yellow
mm
69.724
+0.006

Stage 1 (U 0.25) green
mm
69.717
+0.006

Stage 1 (U 0.25) violet
mm
69.711
+0.005

Stage 2 (U 0.50) yellow
mm
69.474
+0.006

Stage 2 (U 0.50) green
mm
69.467
+0.006

Stage 2 (U 0.50) violet
mm
69.461
+0.005

http://bmw.workshop-manuals.com/5_Se...ex.php?id=3481 for anyone interested

Last edited by schpenxel; 11-05-2013 at 02:18 PM.
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