Welcome to Bimmerfest -- The #1 Online Community for BMW related information! Please enjoy the discussion forums below and share your experiences with the 200,000 current, new and past BMW owners. The forums are broken out by car model and into other special interest sections such as BMW European Delivery and a special forum to voice your questions to the many BMW dealers on the site to assist our members!

Please follow the links below to help get you started!

Go Back   Bimmerfest - BMW Forums > BMW Model Discussions > 5 Series > E60 (2004 - 2010)

E60 (2004 - 2010)
BMW 5-Series (E60 chassis) was first seen in the Unites States in the fall of 2003 with a 2004 Model Year designation. The E60 is now available as a 528i, 528xi, 535i, 535xi, 550i and a 535xi sports wagon! -- View the E60 Wiki

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #76  
Old 11-05-2013, 04:34 PM
bandit1730 bandit1730 is offline
Registered User
Location: Miami FL 33181
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 79
Mein Auto: 2006 750Li
Quote:
Originally Posted by schpenxel View Post
Alright, I think I have the piston ring situation figured out. Here's the skinny:

Basically, the part number that was posted earlier (2C5211 from Hastings) APPEARS to be correct. Here is their catalog for anyone interested. They are about $200 and supposedly ship in 1 to 2 days from perfectengine.com

http://www.hastingsmfg.com/Master_Ca...er_Catalog.pdf

The "2C" portion of that part number means all of the rings are chrome plated, which is what you want on Alusil cylinders. The measurements should be 92mm diameter, 1.2mm thick top ring, 1.5mm second ring, 2mm oil ring set, which is exactly what that part number is. These measurements are both in the BMW tech specs and I measured the pistons/rings from both engines. Everything matches.

So, I'm planning on ordering a set. I want to take one more look at the block just to be sure there are any major nicks in it or anything prior to ordering them

I also heard back from Sunnen on their silicon honing products. Basically the "AN30" compound is $50, and the felt pads you need to do the job their way are about $60, both are in stock. On other forums, people have used regular felt pads wrapped around regular honing stones successfully. I'm hoping a machine shop can just take care of it so I don't have to deal with it.

I still have to call that machine shop and talk to them about what they would charge to do some work for me--if they are reasonably priced on doing the honing/decking/inspecting the block, I may bite the bullet and pull all the internals out. The only bad part is all the rod/main bearing bolts are TTY, so I'd have to replace them all if I remove them. At some point I have to draw the line for what I will and won't replace--if I keep saying "might as well replace it while it's out.." I'm going to end up with a new engine and have way more in it than it's worth
What do you mean by "TTY"?
Did you contact Hastings or Perfect engine to double check on ring set application on the N62??? (I did sent an email to PerfectEngine looking for N62 confirmation on rings).

I'm not planing on re-boring/honing my engine's cylinders unless absolutely necessary. Just thinking ahead on the rings since I believe that after 295K miles, they have got to be worn out a bit. I guess I will have to wait until I take it apart an see the condition of cylinder walls/pistons/rings, but definitively, not spending on the engine more than $2K give or take.

It might change down the road but I'm planning on:
  • Gaskets, O-rings and seals
  • Head Bolts
  • Piston Rings
  • Machine shop's valve job
  • Timing chains and guides
  • Brake & power steering fluid flush

And hopping not to brake any sensor while at it. Then again, it all might change once Pandora's box is opened (you should know what I mean by now).
Visitors are gone but the weather was not cooperating today (Wind/rain). I will get back into it tomorrow weather permitting.
Reply With Quote
  #77  
Old 11-05-2013, 04:54 PM
bandit1730 bandit1730 is offline
Registered User
Location: Miami FL 33181
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 79
Mein Auto: 2006 750Li
Got a reply from Perfect Engines.

Quote:
Hello Joseph,

I never trust application information in catalogs when it comes to piston rings. I always wait until I have the piston in hand and can measure.

The 2C5211 fits a 92mm bore and fits a top groove of 1.2mm, 2nd groove of 1.5mm and 3rd groove of 2.0mm

You always want to check before ordering because ring sets can't be returned once they're opened, unless there is a manufacturing defect - that must be verified by Hastings or the manufacturer itself.

Then, it everything seems correct - go ahead and order the rings. Before installing in the engine, make sure the rings do not bottom out in the grooves.

Best regards,

Rafael Rodriguez

Perfect Engine, Inc.
2721 S. San Pedro Street
Los Angeles, CA 90011
Tel: 323-231-5161 Toll Free: 888-716-6867
Fax: 323-231-0528
www.PerfectEngine.com
www.PerfectImportParts.com
Reply With Quote
  #78  
Old 11-05-2013, 05:07 PM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
DIY'er
Location: Greensboro, NC
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,280
Mein Auto: 2004 545i
Quote:
Originally Posted by bandit1730 View Post
What do you mean by "TTY"?
Did you contact Hastings or Perfect engine to double check on ring set application on the N62??? (I did sent an email to PerfectEngine looking for N62 confirmation on rings).

I'm not planing on re-boring/honing my engine's cylinders unless absolutely necessary. Just thinking ahead on the rings since I believe that after 295K miles, they have got to be worn out a bit. I guess I will have to wait until I take it apart an see the condition of cylinder walls/pistons/rings, but definitively, not spending on the engine more than $2K give or take.

It might change down the road but I'm planning on:
  • Gaskets, O-rings and seals
  • Head Bolts
  • Piston Rings
  • Machine shop's valve job
  • Timing chains and guides
  • Brake & power steering fluid flush

And hopping not to brake any sensor while at it. Then again, it all might change once Pandora's box is opened (you should know what I mean by now).
Visitors are gone but the weather was not cooperating today (Wind/rain). I will get back into it tomorrow weather permitting.
TTY = torque to yield

If you are replacing the rings you need to prep the cylinders--there is a process that they need to go through to get rid of some of the aluminum and bring out the silicone. Google Sunnen AN30--basically it's a paste you put in the cylinders, then you "hone" it with a hone where the abrasives are covered in felt pads. If you don't, these things are so slick I have read that the rings will never seat and it will always burn oil. Of course that's not from experience, so perhaps it'll work just fine. There is a video of the process on youtube also for a Mercedes rebuild--the paste is about $50, and the felt pads are about $60. Others have used just regular felt with success--a machine shop familiar with alusil should know what to do.

Maybe we can go in on some paste? lol

video is here:


Last edited by schpenxel; 11-05-2013 at 05:13 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #79  
Old 11-05-2013, 05:09 PM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
DIY'er
Location: Greensboro, NC
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,280
Mein Auto: 2004 545i
Quote:
Originally Posted by bandit1730 View Post
Got a reply from Perfect Engines.
I have a piston sitting in front of me with rings on it, and that is what they measure, no doubt about it.. I ordered a set this afternoon. I figure what the heck at this point.

Also, the "2C" in the part number means chrome plated on all the rings, per their catalog, which is also exactly what is needed for this application

http://bmw.workshop-manuals.com/5_Se...ex.php?id=3490 also lists those same sizes for the 1.2 / 1.5 / 2mm

then this shows the cylinder size of 92mm:

(piston is .016mm smaller on average.. but the cylinder is 92mm)

http://bmw.workshop-manuals.com/5_Se...ex.php?id=3492

Last edited by schpenxel; 11-05-2013 at 05:10 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #80  
Old 11-05-2013, 08:48 PM
bandit1730 bandit1730 is offline
Registered User
Location: Miami FL 33181
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 79
Mein Auto: 2006 750Li
Great... I just need to finish the pull and open my own Pandora's box.
Sure I go with you on anything we could share. So far, your input and research has been a great asset and well appreciated.
Reply With Quote
  #81  
Old 11-06-2013, 07:13 PM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
DIY'er
Location: Greensboro, NC
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,280
Mein Auto: 2004 545i
Most of the ECS parts shipped today. Some of the bolts were back ordered for a few weeks.

Rings also shipped

Haven't heard back from machine shop yet. I really just want the block decked just enough to get me a good sealing surface, same on the heads, and the cylinders "lapped" by someone who has done it before. Supposedly if it's done incorrectly the engine will be fine at first..then wear through cylinders and pistons quite quickly

Last edited by schpenxel; 11-06-2013 at 07:17 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #82  
Old 11-07-2013, 06:32 AM
limeykraut limeykraut is offline
Registered User
Location: Atlanta, GA
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 63
Mein Auto: 2006 530xiWagon
Quote:
Originally Posted by schpenxel View Post
Most of the ECS parts shipped today. Some of the bolts were back ordered for a few weeks.

Rings also shipped

Haven't heard back from machine shop yet. I really just want the block decked just enough to get me a good sealing surface, same on the heads, and the cylinders "lapped" by someone who has done it before. Supposedly if it's done incorrectly the engine will be fine at first..then wear through cylinders and pistons quite quickly

?? How's that? I just did mine on my project car, more for the 'experience' than need, but I could see how it definitely helped. The guy that told me how to do it does all our Jaguar heads, and his advice was simply to verify that the surfaces stayed uniform around the valves and seats, and that any pitting I found meant I'd need to buck up and pay for the machine shop to do the rest of the 'building' instead of being cheap. The process is tedious, but not hard, and it was easy to see the effects as I went. I ended up with nice even surfaces, that were consistent from valve to valve. Unevenness would have meant belt valves and/or guides. I am NOT a 'mechanic', though, but I like to learn, so did they have more insight on how it would accelerate wear if not done right?
__________________


2006 530xiT, Cold, Premium, Premium Sound, Steptronic, Comfort Seats, PDC, Active cruise, HUD, Nav
Reply With Quote
  #83  
Old 11-07-2013, 11:56 AM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
DIY'er
Location: Greensboro, NC
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,280
Mein Auto: 2004 545i
Quote:
Originally Posted by limeykraut View Post
?? How's that? I just did mine on my project car, more for the 'experience' than need, but I could see how it definitely helped. The guy that told me how to do it does all our Jaguar heads, and his advice was simply to verify that the surfaces stayed uniform around the valves and seats, and that any pitting I found meant I'd need to buck up and pay for the machine shop to do the rest of the 'building' instead of being cheap. The process is tedious, but not hard, and it was easy to see the effects as I went. I ended up with nice even surfaces, that were consistent from valve to valve. Unevenness would have meant belt valves and/or guides. I am NOT a 'mechanic', though, but I like to learn, so did they have more insight on how it would accelerate wear if not done right?
I am not talking about the heads--I am talking about the block. The blocks in the N62 are made from all aluminum/silicone ("AluSil"). They do not have steel sleeves as cylinders like most aluminum engines

In order for the cylinders to hold up, the rings need to basically ride on silicone particles and not the aluminum, so, a special honing (not really honing but kind of looks like it) process has been developed to help with that. You use a special paste from Sunnen called AN30 and put felt pads on a normal hone, and basically "hone" the cylinder with that paste. It's designed to knock off the aluminum and leave the silicone particles standing up, leaving a finish that will last a long long time

There are a few threads on some other forums (For other cars) explaining different ways of doing it at home, and varying results, which was why I was hoping I could find a shop that knew what to do instead of me trying to figure it out.. There is a way to check the results, but the equipment to do so is over $1000, so not really something I'll be buying.

Here is a quick video of someone doing it on a Mercedes engine


Last edited by schpenxel; 11-07-2013 at 12:04 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #84  
Old 11-07-2013, 01:57 PM
limeykraut limeykraut is offline
Registered User
Location: Atlanta, GA
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 63
Mein Auto: 2006 530xiWagon
ok, my bad, I was thinking you were talking about lapping the valves, sorry.

So the AluSil is the fix for NicaSil? Still designed for low friction, but not subject to sulphur corrosion like NicaSil?
__________________


2006 530xiT, Cold, Premium, Premium Sound, Steptronic, Comfort Seats, PDC, Active cruise, HUD, Nav

Last edited by limeykraut; 11-07-2013 at 01:58 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #85  
Old 11-07-2013, 03:56 PM
bandit1730 bandit1730 is offline
Registered User
Location: Miami FL 33181
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 79
Mein Auto: 2006 750Li
Was going through your project pictures and could't find one to show me the AC compressor mounting bracket. I found a way to move the condenser to the side so I could slide the engine out, but can't figure out the rear bolts/nut holding the compressor (not ready to lift the engine yet for better view/access). Do you remember if just the rear nut or any of the remaining rear bolts?
Reply With Quote
  #86  
Old 11-07-2013, 03:59 PM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
DIY'er
Location: Greensboro, NC
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,280
Mein Auto: 2004 545i
Quote:
Originally Posted by limeykraut View Post
ok, my bad, I was thinking you were talking about lapping the valves, sorry.

So the AluSil is the fix for NicaSil? Still designed for low friction, but not subject to sulphur corrosion like NicaSil?
Sorry, that post came across a little more ass'y than I intended, apologies on that.. had been stuck in meetings all day and missed lunch

Anyways--yup, that is correct (or my understanding anyways)
Reply With Quote
  #87  
Old 11-07-2013, 04:02 PM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
DIY'er
Location: Greensboro, NC
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,280
Mein Auto: 2004 545i
Quote:
Originally Posted by bandit1730 View Post
Was going through your project pictures and could't find one to show me the AC compressor mounting bracket. I found a way to move the condenser to the side so I could slide the engine out, but can't figure out the rear bolts/nut holding the compressor (not ready to lift the engine yet for better view/access). Do you remember if just the rear nut or any of the remaining rear bolts?
It's a weird one--there's a little plate thing, a long bolt, and a nut. Here's a picture of when I replaced the AC compressor on mine a while back

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...877&highlight=

Probably best picture of what you need to get off:


Last edited by schpenxel; 11-07-2013 at 04:13 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #88  
Old 11-07-2013, 04:06 PM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
DIY'er
Location: Greensboro, NC
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,280
Mein Auto: 2004 545i
Update on progress of the project:

-Rings arrived today (haven't seen them yet, went to parents house, will get them tomorrow to compare)
-ECS parts will be here tomorrow
-Sunnen stuff shipped from Goodson already. Should be here Tuesday
-Machine shop I was hoping that could do the polishing didn't have the stuff to do it, so that's why I went ahead and ordered the Sunnen stuff (felt pads + AN30 compound)

Last edited by schpenxel; 11-07-2013 at 04:14 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #89  
Old 11-07-2013, 04:42 PM
bandit1730 bandit1730 is offline
Registered User
Location: Miami FL 33181
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 79
Mein Auto: 2006 750Li
Which software are you using??? The one I have is crappy and doesn't have the compressor removal part (unless I have not installed the correct module. I am running it on my desktop, so I didn't install everything).

Reply With Quote
  #90  
Old 11-07-2013, 04:43 PM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
DIY'er
Location: Greensboro, NC
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,280
Mein Auto: 2004 545i
Quote:
Originally Posted by bandit1730 View Post
Which software are you using??? The one I have is crappy and doesn't have the compressor removal part (unless I have not installed the correct module. I am running it on my desktop, so I didn't install everything).


ISTA, give me a min and I'll try to find it for yours
Reply With Quote
  #91  
Old 11-07-2013, 04:50 PM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
DIY'er
Location: Greensboro, NC
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,280
Mein Auto: 2004 545i
Quote:
Originally Posted by schpenxel View Post
ISTA, give me a min and I'll try to find it for yours
Well, can't get on to ISTA on my computer at work right now and can't find it on anything else, sorry. I'll look tomorrow
Reply With Quote
  #92  
Old 11-07-2013, 06:03 PM
bandit1730 bandit1730 is offline
Registered User
Location: Miami FL 33181
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 79
Mein Auto: 2006 750Li
OK.. I will loose the motor mounts tomorrow and lift a bit.
Reply With Quote
  #93  
Old 11-07-2013, 06:33 PM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
DIY'er
Location: Greensboro, NC
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,280
Mein Auto: 2004 545i
Quote:
Originally Posted by bandit1730 View Post
OK.. I will loose the motor mounts tomorrow and lift a bit.
I think that picture I posted a post or two back is going to be valid for your car even though the picture was technically for a 545i. What I usually do in situations like that is try to find a used compressor on ebay or something with good pictures, that way you can see where all the bolts go.

Just real quickly googling I found this picture:



That makes it look like that back bolt is really similar to how mine was.. it is a ****** to get to for sure.. You won't really be able to see what you're doing, but with the engine lifted a little maybe you'll have a little better access
Reply With Quote
  #94  
Old 11-08-2013, 05:39 AM
limeykraut limeykraut is offline
Registered User
Location: Atlanta, GA
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 63
Mein Auto: 2006 530xiWagon
Quote:
Originally Posted by schpenxel View Post
Sorry, that post came across a little more ass'y than I intended, apologies on that.. had been stuck in meetings all day and missed lunch

Anyways--yup, that is correct (or my understanding anyways)
Oh, no problem, you did say 'cylinders' lapped, not valves...
__________________


2006 530xiT, Cold, Premium, Premium Sound, Steptronic, Comfort Seats, PDC, Active cruise, HUD, Nav
Reply With Quote
  #95  
Old 11-08-2013, 06:23 AM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
DIY'er
Location: Greensboro, NC
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,280
Mein Auto: 2004 545i
Got my hands on the new rings this morning--looks like all the measurements are very very close to the old.

The only difference is the width of the ring (I'm sure there's a proper term for it that I don't know..) is about .05mm bigger on the new ones. They still bottom out in the ring grooves fine though so I think it's just a difference of worn vs. not worn
Reply With Quote
  #96  
Old 11-08-2013, 12:01 PM
bandit1730 bandit1730 is offline
Registered User
Location: Miami FL 33181
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 79
Mein Auto: 2006 750Li
Quote:
Originally Posted by schpenxel View Post
I think that picture I posted a post or two back is going to be valid for your car even though the picture was technically for a 545i. What I usually do in situations like that is try to find a used compressor on ebay or something with good pictures, that way you can see where all the bolts go.

Just real quickly googling I found this picture:



That makes it look like that back bolt is really similar to how mine was.. it is a ****** to get to for sure.. You won't really be able to see what you're doing, but with the engine lifted a little maybe you'll have a little better access
Thanks... That's the plan. Will take some pictures and post them for future reference if someone tries to go for it.
Reply With Quote
  #97  
Old 11-08-2013, 12:14 PM
bandit1730 bandit1730 is offline
Registered User
Location: Miami FL 33181
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 79
Mein Auto: 2006 750Li
Quote:
Originally Posted by schpenxel View Post
Got my hands on the new rings this morning--looks like all the measurements are very very close to the old.

The only difference is the width of the ring (I'm sure there's a proper term for it that I don't know..) is about .05mm bigger on the new ones. They still bottom out in the ring grooves fine though so I think it's just a difference of worn vs. not worn
Remember the answer from "PerfectEngine" to the fitment question??? and he is advising "before installing in the engine". Can you take some pics and post?

Quote:
Then, it everything seems correct - go ahead and order the rings. Before installing in the engine, make sure the rings do not bottom out in the grooves.

Best regards,

Rafael Rodriguez
Reply With Quote
  #98  
Old 11-08-2013, 12:19 PM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
DIY'er
Location: Greensboro, NC
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,280
Mein Auto: 2004 545i
I'll post some pics tonight or this weekend. By bottom out I meant that when they are as deep as they'll go in the grooves in the pistons, they're right at flush with the piston wall. They aren't protruding or anything concerning like that

I'm on the way to machine shop now with the heads
Reply With Quote
  #99  
Old 11-08-2013, 08:07 PM
bandit1730 bandit1730 is offline
Registered User
Location: Miami FL 33181
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 79
Mein Auto: 2006 750Li
It will probably be a good idea to take one piston and a new set of rings to the shop and have them give you peace of mind.

Last edited by bandit1730; 11-08-2013 at 08:08 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #100  
Old 11-08-2013, 08:10 PM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
DIY'er
Location: Greensboro, NC
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,280
Mein Auto: 2004 545i
Probably not a bad idea at all..
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
545i, blown head gasket, engine removal, engine replacement, n62, n62b44, n62b44 rebuild, rebuild


Forum Navigation
Go Back   Bimmerfest - BMW Forums > BMW Model Discussions > 5 Series > E60 (2004 - 2010)
Today's Posts Search
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On



Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:20 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
© 2001-2011 performanceIX, Inc. All Rights Reserved .: guidelines .:. privacy .:. terms