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E60 (2004 - 2010)
BMW 5-Series (E60 chassis) was first seen in the Unites States in the fall of 2003 with a 2004 Model Year designation. The E60 is now available as a 528i, 528xi, 535i, 535xi, 550i and a 535xi sports wagon! -- View the E60 Wiki

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  #101  
Old 11-10-2013, 07:44 PM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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Weekly update time. Today I wanted to pull both cranks and all pistons/rods out to check their condition, and do do some "test" honing on the old block. I say honing, but it's really more like LIGHTLY deglaze then polish. I only had the materials for step 1 on hand (Sunnen AN30 compound will be here Tuesday for step 2) but here are some pics from the day.


Pulling the rear main seal off..





Rear main seal/bearing caps off. Crank ready to come out.


Main caps


Main bearing, rear (all mains were in great shape)

















Caps had quite a bit of sludgy nastiness in them, as did the bolts


Ew--these have a kind of weird spacer nut thing that screws down prior to putting some of the bolts in. I've never seen them like that before








Upper mains--great condition, look almost new in person

















Now, this is the #2 piston from the OLD motor (#2 is the cracked cylinder). The second ring is literally stuck in that position. I could not get it out












Alright, on to the fun stuff.. Prepping these cylinders is a two step process. 1 is a deglazing step, 2 is a polishing step that takes off some aluminum but leaves the silicon in tact. The idea is the rings are suppose to ride on the silicone. NOTE: THIS IS NOT A BMW APPROVED PROCESS AT ALL. I AM USING A PROCEDURE THAT HAS BEEN USED SUCCESSFULLY ON PORSCHE ENGINES FOR YEARS, BUT I TAKE NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANYONE WHO THINKS THIS IS A GOOD IDEA TO TRY AT HOME.

One of the cylinders on the old engine.. not too pretty


#2 on old, cracked


Looks like #1 but I'm not 100% sure if it is










Last edited by schpenxel; 11-10-2013 at 08:09 PM.
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  #102  
Old 11-10-2013, 07:45 PM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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Not sure why I took so many of these.. As you can see, the clinders aren't looking so hot. Personally I think this is from a combo of all the deposits on top of the pistons, and from trying to clean out the SAS ports. Any carbon that came loose would have potentially been grinding between the pistons/cylinder.









Alright, here we go. Basically, for the deglazing step you take a standard 3 stone hone and wrap the stones with green scotchbrite pads. Then soak them down with oil (I used detergentless 30W) and "hone" for 30-45 seconds approximately. 60RPM or so




Before





After about 30 seconds











Very very light crosshatch--you do not want any deep lines. That is the reason of using the pads instead of stones. The stones will destroy these cylinders.

















Different light.. I tried different durations on a few cylinders. This was somewhere around 45 seconds


























Now, on to the other bank. This was by far the worst one..




Last edited by schpenxel; 11-10-2013 at 07:56 PM.
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  #103  
Old 11-10-2013, 07:45 PM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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Came out better than I expected--ultimately those two deep lines are just too deep to get out. It would probably have still ran fine, most likely would have smoked though



This is one I went a little heavy on, over a minute and over 60rpm




















Most of these through here I had the light hitting them right, so they look rougher than they really are























This was one I went the hardest one. I think I need to do a better job of cleaning the scotchbrite pads between cylinders, as some of these scratches look pretty deep. They may not be, tough to tell. I will def. clean or replace the scotchbrite pads every cylinder or two when I do the real deal


















This is a view from underneath and is more what they looked like in person










Last edited by schpenxel; 11-10-2013 at 07:59 PM.
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  #104  
Old 11-10-2013, 07:46 PM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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Alright, changing gears back to the "new" block and cleaning the deck. This is after maybe 20 minutes of scrubbing with a plastic scraper and B12.. getting there, but still dirty for sure












Pretty pretty. For the record, anything that looks like a wire brush was from the previous owner and were there when I receive it. I am still thinking of having the block resurfaced at a machine shop just to be sure it's good to go.


Here's after another 20-30 minutes of going at it. Starting to look pretty dang good IMO. Up close there are still some small things, but getting there


Other side, not quite as good at the other








Here's what I mean--up close it's still not as good as I'd like. This may be easier to just let a machine shop skim








This is about as clean as I got it today


I also took a few of the timing covers, etc. and soaked them down with purple power/goo gone and pressure washed them to get all the grease off. They did pretty good for me not having to do any scrubbing whatsoever





Here's my latest box of parts.. that's the order I posted the parts list for a week or two ago


Oops, I was mistaken.. apparently I did some more cleaning


Now that's looking pretty good


Much better. I like that I can still see the factory machining marks from where they surfaced the block


Changing gears again--back to the old block. I went a little hard on these cylinders to see what would happen--the one in the back got the most of them all. Def. too much.




















And apparently one more pic of the NEW block after some more cleaning..

Last edited by schpenxel; 11-10-2013 at 08:05 PM.
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  #105  
Old 11-10-2013, 07:46 PM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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More..


Still not perfect


Cleaner and cleaner





Alright, here are the pistons out of the "NEW" engine. They all look horrible. How the cylinders aren't destroyed on the new motor, I'll never understand, but they are in good shape. A few small lines in them but nothing like the old block

Thankfully my old pistons look MUCH better than this, so I am planning on just using those


There is a coating on these pistons that you do NOT want to go without. The blocks are aluminum, and the pistons are made out of aluminum. Aluminum on aluminum = bad news. They'll wear like crazy if that happens. That's why these have a coating on them, some sort of iron mixture I believe.















Welp--that's it for this week. Need to decide what to do about the block resurfacing and having it cleaned, then order a head gasket based on whether I need the original or 0.3mm thicker size, then start putting it back together. Oh, and I guess I need to just bite the bullet and order bearings and be done with it

Last edited by schpenxel; 11-10-2013 at 08:08 PM.
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  #106  
Old 11-10-2013, 08:22 PM
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It looks like #2 cylinder was cracking from the bottom up as well as top down (from the photo). Those rings seized in the grooves & carbon scratches to the cylinder walls a good reason to reduce oil consumption thru the intake when possible. It was time for a rebuild.
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  #107  
Old 11-10-2013, 08:26 PM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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The carbon scratches to cylinder walls are what concern me the most for those out there trying to clean the secondary air system with the engine still together honestly. I don't see how carbon getting in the combustion chamber doesn't at least cause some amount of scratches.

It was about time for a rebuild regardless I agree, so I'm trying to look at it like that..

I'm trying to locate a set of used pistons that are in great shape for a reasonable price but haven't had much luck so far. I'd really rather put in a set of low mileage ones at this point, since apparently I'm replacing just about everything else.
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  #108  
Old 11-11-2013, 09:34 AM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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Couple of updates. First on the honing--I sent some of these pictures to a few guys on another board and they all agree that I did not use enough oil and had the hone set up with too much force. The first one I did for about 30 seconds was the only one that wasn't overdone in their opinion. I also need to do better on keeping the pads clean, as once they get some metal built up in them they start leaving deeper scratches, as seen in the later cylinders that I tried on. Good thing I did a test run.

And second--here are a few pictures of one of the heads up close. Keep in mind I have not touched these since they came off the car--they were this clean to begin with. So, obviously, someone has reworked these already, or they are new castings.



Look at bearing caps vs. the rest of the head
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  #109  
Old 11-12-2013, 02:25 PM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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AN30 and "real" sunnen felt pads came in today. The pads when put back to back are nearly 3.5" thick, and the cylinders I'm working with are about 3.6", and they don't fit the regular 3 arm hones, so I either need to do some modifying or just go with the felt that everyone else has used.. we shall see. They are made to fit a style of hone that starts at oh about $400.. so yeah, not going to have one of those any time soon. Anyways.

I can def. cut down the metal posts that are on the back of the felt pads to make the whole contraption thinner if needed--I had originally thought about removing the felt from their current backing altogether and epoxying them on to the pads of a 3 hone stone somehow. I'll have to think about it a little more. My #1 is concern is if they come off and the hone digs into a cylinder I am quite possibly screwed, so I have to make sure what whatever method I use holds them sufficiently.

Here are some pictures:







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  #110  
Old 11-12-2013, 02:52 PM
limeykraut limeykraut is offline
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you mean with all you've already spent, you don't wanna spend another $400 for a tool you'll use for a total of 4 minutes?? (based on 30 seconds per cylinder times 8, of course ) From the pics, those pads are a lot softer then the scotchbrite pads you used in your trial.
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  #111  
Old 11-12-2013, 02:55 PM
limeykraut limeykraut is offline
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For something more helpful...is the pad section bolted to the posts? can you unscrew them and bolt or clamp them to the arms of your existing hone?
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  #112  
Old 11-12-2013, 02:57 PM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by limeykraut View Post
you mean with all you've already spent, you don't wanna spend another $400 for a tool you'll use for a total of 4 minutes?? (based on 30 seconds per cylinder times 8, of course ) From the pics, those pads are a lot softer then the scotchbrite pads you used in your trial.
Yeah, it's a two stage kind of thing--stage #1 is the scotchbrite pads to deglaze the cylinders just a little bit to take off just a slight slight amount of material, then step #2 is the AN30 compound with the felt pads. Step 2 removes a bit of aluminum but leaves behind particles of silicon (supposedly anyways). I'll try to take more pictures of the actual final process than I did of me playing.

There's a really cool thread I found the other day where someone put cylinders that were prepped different ways (including one by Sunnen) under an electron microscope to see the differences. You could def. see the difference of doing it this way

I have read that you also need to drive the **** out of cars with alusil cylinders RIGHT after a rebuild or the rings will never seat. Like, warm it up and start driving hard first thing--so I sure hope I get it back together right. Supposedly the first 50 miles or so provide 90% of the ring seating and they need to be ran hard to seat.

Last edited by schpenxel; 11-12-2013 at 03:00 PM.
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  #113  
Old 11-12-2013, 02:59 PM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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Originally Posted by limeykraut View Post
For something more helpful...is the pad section bolted to the posts? can you unscrew them and bolt or clamp them to the arms of your existing hone?
It looks like the pad section is glued on somehow. I'll look a bit more when I get home

I was originally thinking of basically exactly what you're saying, I'd just have to figure out what the heck to do about the third arm on the hone since I only have two sets of pads. Maybe I can find something. It still might work though since the hone will be squeezed so far in anyways. I'll have to go grab the hone during lunch tomorrow and see how it shakes out

Last edited by schpenxel; 11-12-2013 at 03:01 PM.
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  #114  
Old 11-12-2013, 04:23 PM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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Yeah, the pads are def. glued on. It feels like the first few mm's of the pad (closest to the metal base) are hard, I would assume from the amount of glue used. Must be some pretty strong stuff
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  #115  
Old 11-12-2013, 05:14 PM
mstcloud mstcloud is offline
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Great thread, I am greatful for all the work you put into taking these pictures

Great thread, I am greatfull for all the work you put into taking these pictures...This thread will be of good help to a lot of people who plan on doing the same to their 545I...I own a 2004 also and plan on taking the heads out in the near future...

Thx again..
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  #116  
Old 11-12-2013, 07:58 PM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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Here's a close up of the glue holding them on
















And some new tool organization stuff showed up today from Ernst. They are twist lock socket holders--they seem awesome so far. Going to order enough to do most of my sockets this way--this is just the odd ball stuff I didn't have a decent way to store. I can turn this upside down and shake it and nothing comes off. Woohoo.



Alright, here's the AN30 paste--nasty looking stuff.



It's a pretty thick paste, seems to have a small bit of sparkly stuff in it

Last edited by schpenxel; 11-12-2013 at 08:10 PM.
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  #117  
Old 11-13-2013, 06:52 AM
limeykraut limeykraut is offline
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Probably a variation of Gorilla glue, and the hard part is the amount that soaked into the pads to get a good hold...won't be easy to get that off the backing plate. Maybe you'd get lucky with the diameters, and something like a larger hose clamp around the 3 arms of the hone to keep them spaced correctly, then attach the plates with their pads on them?

Or, slot the pads where they attach to the plate, and run a band clamp through there?....

Ooooo tools!! - what are the reverse-torx sockets called? I need a set...
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Last edited by limeykraut; 11-13-2013 at 06:59 AM.
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  #118  
Old 11-13-2013, 09:37 AM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by limeykraut View Post
Probably a variation of Gorilla glue, and the hard part is the amount that soaked into the pads to get a good hold...won't be easy to get that off the backing plate. Maybe you'd get lucky with the diameters, and something like a larger hose clamp around the 3 arms of the hone to keep them spaced correctly, then attach the plates with their pads on them?

Or, slot the pads where they attach to the plate, and run a band clamp through there?....

Ooooo tools!! - what are the reverse-torx sockets called? I need a set...
I believe they're called e-torx sockets (edit--just googled it, try looking up external torx sockets)--found a set of snap on ones on eBay for a good price a while back. A necessity for working on German cars

Looks like I need some new regular torx bits too--I didn't realize how twisted a few of mine were!

Sounds like some good ideas on the felt--at this point my order for rod/crank bearings is a few weeks out as one bearing has to come out of Germany (literally one piece..) so I have plenty of time to figure out what to do it looks like. I really want this thing running before Christmas
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  #119  
Old 11-13-2013, 01:01 PM
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Edit - Dumb Idea

Last edited by A B Able Truck; 11-13-2013 at 04:25 PM.
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  #120  
Old 11-13-2013, 01:09 PM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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Def. worth looking at--not sure how I'd control the amount of outward pressure though is the only thing. Although I'm not sure how it's done on the Sunnen style hones either
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  #121  
Old 11-13-2013, 01:33 PM
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Def. worth looking at--not sure how I'd control the amount of outward pressure though is the only thing. Although I'm not sure how it's done on the Sunnen style hones either
Those pads you have I believe are for a bore machine (not hand held) - the machine adjusts outward pressure with the teeth on the pad shafts. You'd have to improvise.
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  #122  
Old 11-13-2013, 02:48 PM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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Originally Posted by A B Able Truck View Post
Those pads you have I believe are for a bore machine (not hand held) - the machine adjusts outward pressure with the teeth on the pad shafts. You'd have to improvise.
Yeah was just looking at some of the honing machines out there--looks like they have a kind of shaft that has splines on it that mate up with the teeth on the pad shafts. That way it can twist and control the outward pressure on whatever honing pads you are using

Still need to run by and get my 3 arm hone to play with--too many emergencies at work today!
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  #123  
Old 11-13-2013, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by schpenxel View Post
Yeah was just looking at some of the honing machines out there--looks like they have a kind of shaft that has splines on it that mate up with the teeth on the pad shafts. That way it can twist and control the outward pressure on whatever honing pads you are using
Still need to run by and get my 3 arm hone to play with--too many emergencies at work today!
I just edited my threaded rod/washer suggestion after looking at Sunnen's AN112 honing tool. The center block appears to hold the pads true to center. The center spline threads the pad shafts outward and it appears to secure pads in place while honing (manual adjust). And the swivel union allow pads to stay centered when honing with a drill.

You still could use a threaded rod in conjunction with a wood or plastic block drilled to hold pads in place. The trick is the swivel to hold tool centered.

https://www.goodson.com/AN-112-Standard_Cylinder_Hone/
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  #124  
Old 11-13-2013, 06:14 PM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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Originally Posted by A B Able Truck View Post
I just edited my threaded rod/washer suggestion after looking at Sunnen's AN112 honing tool. The center block appears to hold the pads true to center. The center spline threads the pad shafts outward and it appears to secure pads in place while honing (manual adjust). And the swivel union allow pads to stay centered when honing with a drill.

You still could use a threaded rod in conjunction with a wood or plastic block drilled to hold pads in place. The trick is the swivel to hold tool centered.

https://www.goodson.com/AN-112-Standard_Cylinder_Hone/
That sounds like a good idea. Either a block of plastic/wood/something. Then put springs on the posts to get pressure similar to the three arm hones, add some sort of rod out of the top of this thing to connect to a drill, and have at it! Hmmmmm. Would be easiest to do out of wood or plastic, aluminum would be nice if I can find a piece about the right size laying around. I like this idea.

Guess that's the project for this weekend

edit: I am thinking if I start with a 4" piece of 1.5" aluminum square stock I bet it's not much more than a few holes and some springs to have something that's workable

Last edited by schpenxel; 11-13-2013 at 06:39 PM.
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  #125  
Old 11-14-2013, 08:41 AM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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I am working on a summary list of all the dimensions/tolerances for bearings/rings, etc. and all of the torque specs needed to put the engine back together so that I'll have everything in one place when it's time to assemble everything

Is anyone interested in me posting this after it's complete?
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