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E60 (2004 - 2010)
BMW 5-Series (E60 chassis) was first seen in the Unites States in the fall of 2003 with a 2004 Model Year designation. The E60 is now available as a 528i, 528xi, 535i, 535xi, 550i and a 535xi sports wagon! -- View the E60 Wiki

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  #126  
Old 11-14-2013, 11:18 AM
bandit1730 bandit1730 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schpenxel View Post
I am working on a summary list of all the dimensions/tolerances for bearings/rings, etc. and all of the torque specs needed to put the engine back together so that I'll have everything in one place when it's time to assemble everything

Is anyone interested in me posting this after it's complete?
You know I'm in!!! (I am posting some progress of my own today).
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  #127  
Old 11-14-2013, 11:54 AM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bandit1730 View Post
You know I'm in!!! (I am posting some progress of my own today).
Here are what I have so far. Use at your own risk, not responsible if I screwed something up that makes your car explode, etc., etc.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Torques.pdf (148.0 KB, 49 views)
File Type: pdf Tolerances.pdf (50.6 KB, 35 views)
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  #128  
Old 11-14-2013, 09:50 PM
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Hogie Hogie is offline
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Hey drove the 545i up to Raleigh today. Would love to see the project but I think I am going to be swamped....

I have not seen mentioned (I don't think) but there is another N62 recent rebuild post on this site. The guy had prepped the cylinders for the Aulsil block. Originally I thought he messed up because the walls looked like shiny glass. I am use to seeing a nice cross hatching.

Do you recall the thread? I will try and find but it was a few weeks ago and the guy rebuilt his N62.
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  #129  
Old 11-14-2013, 09:52 PM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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This one? If so he had a shop prep them

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho....php?p=7675485
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  #130  
Old 11-14-2013, 10:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schpenxel View Post
This one? If so he had a shop prep them

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho....php?p=7675485
Yeah you are on it, of course. Post #14 pic #4. So someone else did the work? Who? As they seem to have done a nice job.

I talked with my good GM tranny expert and I think we are going to drop the sub-frame in a couple weeks, remove the exhaust header and try and clean the ports from "down under". I will see how it goes....
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  #131  
Old 11-15-2013, 05:27 AM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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Originally Posted by Hogie View Post
Yeah you are on it, of course. Post #14 pic #4. So someone else did the work? Who? As they seem to have done a nice job.

I talked with my good GM tranny expert and I think we are going to drop the sub-frame in a couple weeks, remove the exhaust header and try and clean the ports from "down under". I will see how it goes....
Nice..let us know

Honestly I'm not sure how tough it will be to get that header off, but I would venture a guess that it's going to be a tough one. I wonder if you lower the engine slightly after the subframe is out of the way if that'll make it easier. It's a really really tight fit between the frame rail and headers

I tried contacting him several times to ask some questions about his rebuild but never heard back so I'm not sure where he had it done unfortunately

Last edited by schpenxel; 11-15-2013 at 05:28 AM.
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  #132  
Old 11-15-2013, 10:00 AM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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Here is what I'm thinking for using these Sunnen pads. Basically block of aluminum + some holes + some springs. Of course I'd add something out the top to connect this whole contraption up to a drill or something

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  #133  
Old 11-15-2013, 10:50 AM
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A B Able Truck A B Able Truck is offline
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[QUOTE=schpenxel;7958560]Here is what I'm thinking for using these Sunnen pads. Basically block of aluminum + some holes + some springs. Of course I'd add something out the top to connect this whole contraption up to a drill or something

Looks good - put springs on all pad posts for uniform pressure. (I think Home Depot has a selection of springs)
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  #134  
Old 11-15-2013, 11:05 AM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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Originally Posted by A B Able Truck View Post
Looks good - put springs on all pad posts for uniform pressure. (I think Home Depot has a selection of springs)
Yep, will do--solidworks was giving me trouble so I just stuck one in for the picture
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  #135  
Old 11-15-2013, 11:12 AM
bimmerfan52 bimmerfan52 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hogie View Post
Yeah you are on it, of course. Post #14 pic #4. So someone else did the work? Who? As they seem to have done a nice job.

I talked with my good GM tranny expert and I think we are going to drop the sub-frame in a couple weeks, remove the exhaust header and try and clean the ports from "down under". I will see how it goes....
I understand that the entire exhaust system is dropped as one piece (welded at factory) in order to get the exhaust header out (when replacing the starter). Sounds like a job for two men and a lift.
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  #136  
Old 11-15-2013, 11:14 AM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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Originally Posted by bimmerfan52 View Post
I understand that the entire exhaust system is dropped as one piece (welded at factory) in order to get the exhaust header out (when replacing the starter). Sounds like a job for two men and a lift.
It's so funny how the BMW procedure describes how to change the starter. It's like "Step 1, remove entire exhaust system, Step 2, remove header.."

like it's JUST that easy
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  #137  
Old 11-15-2013, 01:51 PM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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Pictures of my new'ish pistons. Muuuuch better on the skirts.


Last edited by schpenxel; 11-15-2013 at 02:06 PM.
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  #138  
Old 11-15-2013, 09:50 PM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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Does anyone who has dealt with these engines think I am totally insane for going this route?

On another forum I am being told there's no way it will work, cylinders can't still be round enough to seat new rings, coating is going to come off the cylinders, cylinders needs to be bored or it will wear out in no time trying to use used pistons, bearings will wear wrong, crank won't be balanced right, etc. etc. I really think it will work, why wouldn't it? Alusil cylinders (which are NOT a coating by the way) literally almost don't wear, guys on Porsche forums have been re-ringing with just a deglaze with scotch brite pads for years on very high mileage engines. I'm putting in all new bearings + will have a machine shop see if the crank needs to be polished and is in spec first, same for the rods/pistons. I don't see the problem.

Guess we'll see. I sure as heck hope it works and works well.. the whole point for me is to basically get a "new" engine that will last longer than I'll have the car. Otherwise it's not worth spending this much money on parts honestly

On another note: all of my parts are ready to ship except for ONE half of ONE bearing, lol. It had to be shipped over from Germany and will be another week or two

I am taking Monday afternoon off from work to take all of these parts to the machine shop to get going on that portion

Last edited by schpenxel; 11-15-2013 at 10:04 PM.
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  #139  
Old 11-16-2013, 07:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schpenxel View Post
Does anyone who has dealt with these engines think I am totally insane for going this route?

On another forum I am being told there's no way it will work, cylinders can't still be round enough to seat new rings, coating is going to come off the cylinders, cylinders needs to be bored or it will wear out in no time trying to use used pistons, bearings will wear wrong, crank won't be balanced right, etc. etc. I really think it will work, why wouldn't it? Alusil cylinders (which are NOT a coating by the way) literally almost don't wear, guys on Porsche forums have been re-ringing with just a deglaze with scotch brite pads for years on very high mileage engines. I'm putting in all new bearings + will have a machine shop see if the crank needs to be polished and is in spec first, same for the rods/pistons. I don't see the problem.

Guess we'll see. I sure as heck hope it works and works well.. the whole point for me is to basically get a "new" engine that will last longer than I'll have the car. Otherwise it's not worth spending this much money on parts honestly

On another note: all of my parts are ready to ship except for ONE half of ONE bearing, lol. It had to be shipped over from Germany and will be another week or two

I am taking Monday afternoon off from work to take all of these parts to the machine shop to get going on that portion
You can check the cylinders for roundness - what worries me is the "1/2 of 1 bearing - are they not made in sets - what the hecks that all about??????
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  #140  
Old 11-16-2013, 02:29 PM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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Originally Posted by A B Able Truck View Post
You can check the cylinders for roundness - what worries me is the "1/2 of 1 bearing - are they not made in sets - what the hecks that all about??????
Nope, you buy the top and bottom halves via separate part numbers which is pretty normal for BMW. They have different part numbers for all the different sizes they have, top and bottom. So like 18 part numbers

The crazy part is on their main bearings they have NINE different sizes, .007mm difference between them in size. It's basically setup where each possible crank size has 3 different options that vary very slight (like .007mm difference--they call them yellow/green/violet versions) + 3 options for whether you're using the original crank size or if it's been ground .25 or .5mm

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts...63&hg=11&fg=20

Last edited by schpenxel; 11-16-2013 at 02:40 PM.
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  #141  
Old 11-17-2013, 04:52 PM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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Updates from today:

-Plastigauge'd the "new" engine (with old bearings) main bearings and all are dead on the middle of the spec except for one (but was still in). Basically front main was .0019", the rest were .0015" or maybe .0016", about as accurate as I can get with plastigauge. The spec is about .001" to .002", so I feel good about the crank.

-Checked gaps on all the new rings. All were right at the high side of the gap allowed but in spec. None will need to be filed it appears (haven't checked all the oil rings yet, just top/second rings)

-Ran some tests on the AN30 polishing compound and the cylinder prep process that is required. Basically the idea is to etch away some of the aluminum in the cylinder bores while leaving behind the silicone, so that the rings ride on the silicone.

It looks like I need a drill with a little more range to it--mine seems to be either too fast or too slow. The only cylinder I got results like I THINK I'm looking for was the last one where I used the drill at a high speed for probably a minute. Unfortunately it nearly ripped the felt off the hone so I don't want to go that fast on the "new" block.

The result I'm after is a dull grey with basically no crosshatch. It should feel almost like a chalkboard when you rub it with your fingers.

Here are some pictures:

I ended up finding some big sheets of felt at work that had a really strong adhesive on them. I just wrapped them around the honing stones and stickied them to themselves--these held up fine for everything I did today. I still want to try to get the real Sunnen pads going. I played with them a little and I think they'll do a much better job


This is the first try--it is def. different from what it looked like in the beginning, but I think this combo was too much scotchbrite last weekend + not enough AN30 time today


Left has been through the felt + AN30 process, cylinder on right has not


Another one after doing some "polishing"


Unpolished cylinder (scotch brite only)


Another unpolished


Polished


Now this is the one I went longer on + sped up the drill. I need someway of getting a speed higher than "low" on this drill, and lower than the speed used in this cylinder. I was afraid it was going to rip the felt off..

This is the one I thought was by far the best


Another shot of it--looks pretty dull grey'ish, much more like what I am after (I think anyways)


And parts going to the machine shop tomorrow. Oh the irony of a Honda hauling a BMW engine to the machine shop.. lol. Even funnier to me is that block couldn't have weighed more than 50-60lbs--I felt like the hulk putting a block in the trunk, haha


Welp, that's it for today.
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  #142  
Old 11-18-2013, 05:03 PM
bandit1730 bandit1730 is offline
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Hey...
Found a thread on Mercedes Benz Forums. There is a MB forum member going through almost same process we are and did his own Cylinder honing like you are trying to do. Check it out!

Note: Wife has a CLK320 and the Soft Top has to be replaced. I Was doing a search on it and while there, searched for the alusil stuff as well.

Last edited by bandit1730; 11-18-2013 at 05:10 PM. Reason: Typo
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  #143  
Old 11-18-2013, 07:24 PM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bandit1730 View Post
Hey...
Found a thread on Mercedes Benz Forums. There is a MB forum member going through almost same process we are and did his own Cylinder honing like you are trying to do. Check it out!

Note: Wife has a CLK320 and the Soft Top has to be replaced. I Was doing a search on it and while there, searched for the alusil stuff as well.
Awesome, thanks!
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  #144  
Old 11-18-2013, 08:32 PM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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Also, update for today:

I took the block, crank and heads to the machine shop today.

They did a basic vacuum test on the heads while I was there and results were good. They also checked for straightness and could not find a spot off even .001", so I doubt they'll even need to re-surface them. They are going to clean everything, pull all the oil plugs, etc. out and clean all the passages. Also they'll valve seals and check valve guides. And finally they are also going to drill the holes I need to line up with my exhaust manifold on that one cylinder

On the crank it would really be fine to throw in as is, but they are going to do basically a final polish just so it's as slick as possible. The cost was low so I figure why not

On the block they are going to pull all the oil plugs, thoroughly clean it and check the deck to make sure it's straight. I asked them not to do any machining unless it was really needed. While I was there they also could not get a .001" feeler gauge under a straightedge so I think a good cleaning is all it really needs but they are going to check it more thoroughly to be sure

Overall, it looks like all the parts are in good shape. He agreed the cylinders were in great shape but was not all that familiar with Alusil, so I'll still need to do the final polishing process myself
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  #145  
Old 11-19-2013, 11:28 AM
limeykraut limeykraut is offline
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Originally Posted by schpenxel View Post
Does anyone who has dealt with these engines think I am totally insane for going this route?

On another forum I am being told there's no way it will work, cylinders can't still be round enough to seat new rings, coating is going to come off the cylinders, cylinders needs to be bored or it will wear out in no time trying to use used pistons, bearings will wear wrong, crank won't be balanced right, etc. etc. I really think it will work, why wouldn't it? Alusil cylinders (which are NOT a coating by the way) literally almost don't wear, guys on Porsche forums have been re-ringing with just a deglaze with scotch brite pads for years on very high mileage engines. I'm putting in all new bearings + will have a machine shop see if the crank needs to be polished and is in spec first, same for the rods/pistons. I don't see the problem.

Guess we'll see. I sure as heck hope it works and works well.. the whole point for me is to basically get a "new" engine that will last longer than I'll have the car. Otherwise it's not worth spending this much money on parts honestly

On another note: all of my parts are ready to ship except for ONE half of ONE bearing, lol. It had to be shipped over from Germany and will be another week or two

I am taking Monday afternoon off from work to take all of these parts to the machine shop to get going on that portion
A little insanity is good for the soul.

In reality though, I'm with you, there's no reason it can't work just fine. You're taking the precautions of double-triple checking each step, using the correct parts, and taking your time. I have no doubt you'll be successful!

Thanks for the extra work in documenting the process as well!
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  #146  
Old 11-19-2013, 11:46 AM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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Originally Posted by limeykraut View Post
A little insanity is good for the soul.

In reality though, I'm with you, there's no reason it can't work just fine. You're taking the precautions of double-triple checking each step, using the correct parts, and taking your time. I have no doubt you'll be successful!

Thanks for the extra work in documenting the process as well!
Thanks. I feel much better about it after visiting the machine shop yesterday and I have had a few PM's with bmwoem1 about some things I was worried about.

One thing I found interesting--I have rods out of both the new and old engine and they are ALL within 2 grams of one another. The BMW spec is for them to be within 4. I have 8 that are within 0.1 grams (they show up as perfect on a scale that is accurate to .1 grams).. that's like race engine level. The pistons are almost just as close as well, so I feel good about the balancing aspect now. I've never seen pistons or rods that close in weight straight out of two different engines

I guess BMW just makes all of their parts the same as opposed to balancing each assembly? Who knows with the Germans

Last edited by schpenxel; 11-19-2013 at 11:48 AM.
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  #147  
Old 11-21-2013, 01:02 PM
bandit1730 bandit1730 is offline
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Took my heads to the shop today along with the set of seals.
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  #148  
Old 11-21-2013, 02:08 PM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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Cool, make sure he takes a look at the guides to see how worn they are or aren't--I've always read that they usually wear out and drastically reduce the life of the seals

Last edited by schpenxel; 11-21-2013 at 02:49 PM.
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  #149  
Old 11-21-2013, 02:51 PM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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Originally Posted by schpenxel View Post
This is the one I thought was by far the best


Another shot of it--looks pretty dull grey'ish, much more like what I am after (I think anyways)

Just wanted to give a quick update here that may help someone in the future

I posted these pictures on another forum with the guy who figured out this whole process. In his opinion, he would have had no worries with putting an engine back together with cylinders that look like the one posted in these pictures after the conditioning process, i.e. it looks like it's done well enough to do what it's supposed to do.. which I found encouraging anyways. Now I just have to improve the scotch brite de-glazing process to lessen the scratches it puts in the cylinders. The rings are chrome plated so I really don't think are going to wear in all that much.. so deep scratches are bad

Last edited by schpenxel; 11-21-2013 at 02:52 PM.
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  #150  
Old 11-21-2013, 04:30 PM
banglenot banglenot is offline
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Looking at your new pistons made me laugh.

Rebuilt my first four cylinder MC engine back in the 70's (remember the Honda 750 K1? changed the whole MC business). New rings and pistons was the job.

Anyway, I reassembled the entire head, did (almost) everything right, wrestled it all back together into the chassis, added carbs, coil, plugs, oil blah blah...and she started up on the first kick.

I'm grinning like an idiot, then I notice that #4 is blowing smoke like a mother.

Ah, crap....

Yeah, you know it. Late one night I had very carefully lined up the ring gaps in #4 instead of setting them 120 deg out. Had to strip it all the way back down cause I was tired and screwed up the very simple ring setup....

Moral: instead of "measure twice, cut once", it's "think twice, wrench once".
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Last edited by banglenot; 11-21-2013 at 04:31 PM.
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