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  #101  
Old 11-02-2013, 02:59 AM
sb535 sb535 is offline
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2014 Cadillac CTS Vsport

I also drove a 2013 CTS V and you can load that thing with suede and alcantara all you want the hard plastic on the dash ( that by the way had a ton of play in it)
And the plastic bumper cover that gives like it was connected with bubble gum

The CTS V to me was like the C63, fantastic motor that I loved but many of the other parts were sloppy or not configured correctly (I.e. no 6MT or DCT on C63). In the end I went 550 because the only thing on that car that is missing (exhaust note). Can be easily added with the right mods. There is no off the shelf Mod for big panel gaps and hard plastic


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  #102  
Old 11-02-2013, 03:57 AM
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K-A K-A is offline
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And btw, the new Vette, as hot as it looks at the moment, has typically poor GM panel gaps as well, either wide or misaligned. Another inherent virtue you expect a German manufacturer to get perfect. I know American cars have come a long way, but what they need to realize is that the true quality is in the details, and that has never been an American-auto-manufacturer strong suit. The weight and tactile feel of the shifter, window switches, etc. all add up big, more than a suede wrapped panel that was cheap and flex-y to begin with.
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  #103  
Old 11-02-2013, 05:04 AM
PeterC4 PeterC4 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K-A View Post
Lol.

As for solidity, all the stuff you mentioned about the F10 are irrelevant and meaningless. The Caddies I've driven in literally felt LOOSE in terms of chassis, like they were falling apart after just a couple of years, i.e a 2010 CTS for one. That's one area that continues to plague American cars. BMW's and Benzes run around with tons of mileage and still feel as solid as new.
My point being your experience is derived from the Caddies you've driven in the past - and your assertion is the problems you refer to continue to plague American cars. That is a broad condemnation and I don't think it's accurate anymore. I have driven in many different North American cars over the last 4 years and in many of them you would find: vast improvements in build quality, very competitive pricing and good reliability. Maybe not to BMW standards, but BMW's are not cheap. You would expect something special for the dollar spent, but they are not perfect either. As an example, BMW's experiment with run-flats has to be proving to be expensive. I have had 3 rims and 2 tires replaced within 24 months. And when I hit a pothole at the right angle, it seems like the shock absorber is coming through the hood. There are lot's of criticisms in this forum that you cannot dismiss as irrelevant. But it is no different than any car, few are perfect. Anyway, it may be that the negative sentiment towards North American cars is irreversible no matter what they do.
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  #104  
Old 11-02-2013, 05:24 AM
PeterC4 PeterC4 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K-A View Post
And btw, the new Vette, as hot as it looks at the moment, has typically poor GM panel gaps as well, either wide or misaligned. .
They are building the Corvette with the body panels misaligned? How much time have you spent in parking lots trying to measure this stuff?
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Last edited by PeterC4; 11-02-2013 at 05:27 AM.
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  #105  
Old 11-02-2013, 11:09 AM
2010drive 2010drive is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K-A View Post
And btw, the new Vette, as hot as it looks at the moment, has typically poor GM panel gaps as well, either wide or misaligned. Another inherent virtue you expect a German manufacturer to get perfect. I know American cars have come a long way, but what they need to realize is that the true quality is in the details, and that has never been an American-auto-manufacturer strong suit. The weight and tactile feel of the shifter, window switches, etc. all add up big, more than a suede wrapped panel that was cheap and flex-y to begin with.
Don't try and bring the corvette into this. Corvettes have been the best car for the money for many years and still are. Oh and window switches? Are you joking?
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  #106  
Old 11-02-2013, 06:14 PM
PeterC4 PeterC4 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K-A View Post
And btw, the new Vette, as hot as it looks at the moment, has typically poor GM panel gaps as well, either wide or misaligned. Another inherent virtue you expect a German manufacturer to get perfect. I know American cars have come a long way, but what they need to realize is that the true quality is in the details, and that has never been an American-auto-manufacturer strong suit. The weight and tactile feel of the shifter, window switches, etc. all add up big, more than a suede wrapped panel that was cheap and flex-y to begin with.
And to think in an effort to get to the "true quality", Corvette uses the same seat a manufacturer as Porsche, Lear Corporation, which is an American company.
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  #107  
Old 11-03-2013, 07:57 PM
Fastpaddler Fastpaddler is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by x5mr View Post
I also wonder whether Cadillac is getting a bit ahead of itself on the pricing. A CTS v-sport premium is $70K. You can get very nicely equipped 550i for $70K. I wouldn't completely rule out a caddy (heck I drive a lexus now), but it would have to come at a sizable discount to a comparable BMW.
Agreed. Take a base CTS v-sport and add the packages and do the same for the 550. It is interesting. I havent driven the new CTS, which I will, but I know the 550 well enough to be leaning towards it until I am proven wrong by the test drive. I dont like the CtS interior for one thing. They do have free service now on their Caddys and have for some time. That is of course included in all high end car prices. The 550 here is some way past 70$K as prices are higher but I expect that will apply to the CTS.
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  #108  
Old 11-04-2013, 09:39 PM
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K-A K-A is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterC4 View Post
They are building the Corvette with the body panels misaligned? How much time have you spent in parking lots trying to measure this stuff?
I've seen one Corvette in person (which was stunning, and if I can fit in it with my tall height, it will be my next car, no question, until I get tired of it and long for the refinement of a BMW again). Yes, panel misalignments were noticeable to my critical eye. Pictures posted by owners on the Vette boards also reveal classic GM panel inaccuracies to me. C&D said the door-to-dash panels were so wide you can stick your fist through them. They also said that the door panel creaked and flexed when you'd push a window switch. This is the kind of crap American manufacturers need to stop pulling, though they're getting better (why do we need to babysit them i.e "getting better?" They should be doing this long ago already).

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2010drive View Post
Don't try and bring the corvette into this. Corvettes have been the best car for the money for many years and still are. Oh and window switches? Are you joking?
No. I like a high quality look and feel everywhere I touch (as good as the dollar I'm spending can afford, at least), and window switches are an important one. I'm a detail freak and true quality is in the details to me.
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  #109  
Old 11-05-2013, 09:34 PM
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K-A K-A is offline
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Was looking at some Stingray classifieds today and noticed how prevalent the panel gaps and misalignments are even in pictures. Then browsing the Vette boards, many paint and panel quality issue posts already. Seems like the first batch of cars are Quality Control disasters thus far. One member mentioned that while looking at a new Caddy, he noticed the same problems.

American cars can get as much lipstick put on them as they can handle, but until these important QC details get resolved, those smart enough won't simply give them a pass simply for being based out of the same country that they reside:

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c7-g...panel-fit.html

Edit: And things like this:

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c7-g...n-pressed.html

Aand post #115 here:
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c7-g...-to-odo-6.html

Last edited by K-A; 11-05-2013 at 10:21 PM.
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  #110  
Old 11-06-2013, 01:23 AM
PeterC4 PeterC4 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K-A View Post
Was looking at some Stingray classifieds today and noticed how prevalent the panel gaps and misalignments are even in pictures. Then browsing the Vette boards, many paint and panel quality issue posts already. Seems like the first batch of cars are Quality Control disasters thus far. One member mentioned that while looking at a new Caddy, he noticed the same problems.

American cars can get as much lipstick put on them as they can handle, but until these important QC details get resolved, those smart enough won't simply give them a pass simply for being based out of the same country that they reside:

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c7-g...panel-fit.html

Edit: And things like this:

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c7-g...n-pressed.html

Aand post #115 here:
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c7-g...-to-odo-6.html
Some of the things like orange peel are not confined to corvettes. As to American cars and body alignment, the Corvette, assuming it is still using fiberglass may be different from steel panelled cars. I don't think body panels in steel are shaped by humans anymore as virtually all stampings that I have seen are machine or robotically made. Even assembly is at least robotically assited and some body parts come from companies that supply US and Foreign Domestics for North American manufactured cars be they Hondas or Buicks. Maybe steel panel fitaments for GM are worse, I don't know but there is not much human error to contribute to it. As to squeaking, my 2007 3 series coupe squeaks at the fenders when pressed - they are plastic. The gaps change a little when cold too.
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Last edited by PeterC4; 11-06-2013 at 01:25 AM.
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  #111  
Old 11-06-2013, 07:31 PM
2010drive 2010drive is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterC4 View Post
Some of the things like orange peel are not confined to corvettes. As to American cars and body alignment, the Corvette, assuming it is still using fiberglass may be different from steel panelled cars. I don't think body panels in steel are shaped by humans anymore as virtually all stampings that I have seen are machine or robotically made. Even assembly is at least robotically assited and some body parts come from companies that supply US and Foreign Domestics for North American manufactured cars be they Hondas or Buicks. Maybe steel panel fitaments for GM are worse, I don't know but there is not much human error to contribute to it. As to squeaking, my 2007 3 series coupe squeaks at the fenders when pressed - they are plastic. The gaps change a little when cold too.
Amazing how blinded some people are from there german car fanboy mentality isn't it?
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  #112  
Old 11-06-2013, 07:37 PM
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ausdude ausdude is offline
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Not everyone is blinded, many of us just have personal preferences. Im glad there are people that prefer Vettes, MB, Audi, CTSV... Things would get tired if everyone only had BMWs.
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  #113  
Old 11-06-2013, 07:48 PM
Fastpaddler Fastpaddler is offline
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Hmm.Easterner Canadianer versus down-Southener (enthusiasts) reflecting on the obvious re-emergence of the classic GM Ikon, Cadillac. As I mentioned and do so again, depreciation will be the criterion to respect down the line. Personally, I like the looks and stats for the car but I do NOT like the interior. If I cannot have a Jaguar interior then the BMW is just fine with me. Lets be nice to each other. Like automobiles, not one of us is perfect. Well, that is also arguable....
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PS As for English grammer remember the wise observation of one of my favourite historical writers, Winston Churchill. He said, I quote A preposition is a terrible thing to end a sentence with unquote. English errors are ok if the message is clear....
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  #114  
Old 11-06-2013, 08:04 PM
2010drive 2010drive is offline
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Not everyone is blinded, many of us just have personal preferences. Im glad there are people that prefer Vettes, MB, Audi, CTSV... Things would get tired if everyone only had BMWs.
Personal preference is fine. But when you have to go onto other boards to try and find something wrong with a particular vehicle and go all the way down to window switches you just come off as pathetic.
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  #115  
Old 11-06-2013, 08:06 PM
PeterC4 PeterC4 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2010drive View Post
Amazing how blinded some people are from there german car fanboy mentality isn't it?
Oh yah. Just look at the latest ranking in C&D for the 535 and the responses...mama mia. A few threads over, members were lambasting the Car Magazines as being unreliable as to their views due to ahem, "monetary bias". Man GM has a tough road to hoe. Oh well, I'm travelling right now, but when I get back and a few show up in the show room I'm going to see for myself.
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  #116  
Old 11-06-2013, 08:18 PM
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K-A K-A is offline
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Amazing how blinded some people are from there german car fanboy mentality isn't it?
I just don't tolerate garbage. The QC on new Stingray's seems as garbage as any GM before it really.
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  #117  
Old 11-06-2013, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by 2010drive View Post
Personal preference is fine. But when you have to go onto other boards to try and find something wrong with a particular vehicle and go all the way down to window switches you just come off as pathetic.
Uhh, I'm on the other board because I'm interested in a Stingray.

You seem to have an issue with others who have a finer eye for detail than you do. Window switches matter as much as any other material inside. GM is happy that there are those like yourself that will focus on the obviouses, i.e leather on a steering wheel and such. The rest of us still appreciate and demand high quality in the finest of details, those are the people who still aren't giving GM a chance.
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  #118  
Old 11-06-2013, 09:52 PM
2010drive 2010drive is offline
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Originally Posted by K-A View Post
Uhh, I'm on the other board because I'm interested in a Stingray.

You seem to have an issue with others who have a finer eye for detail than you do. Window switches matter as much as any other material inside. GM is happy that there are those like yourself that will focus on the obviouses, i.e leather on a steering wheel and such. The rest of us still appreciate and demand high quality in the finest of details, those are the people who still aren't giving GM a chance.
Hmm, yeah ok whatever makes you sleep at night. I'll make sure to test out the window switches in every car from now on, because that really shows the quality of a car and I like to watch them roll up and down at every stop light so the button that I touch for 0.3 seconds has to feel just right...

Doesn't your bmw like to open it's doors on the freeway?
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  #119  
Old 11-06-2013, 10:48 PM
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K-A K-A is offline
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Originally Posted by 2010drive View Post
Hmm, yeah ok whatever makes you sleep at night. I'll make sure to test out the window switches in every car from now on, because that really shows the quality of a car and I like to watch them roll up and down at every stop light so the button that I touch for 0.3 seconds has to feel just right...

Doesn't your bmw like to open it's doors on the freeway?
Again, I have a higher sensitivity to quality materials than you do, simply put. It's all important to me. How dumb of M-B for wasting time putting nice aluminum buttons on the S Class. they could have used the same plastic ones available on a Chevy Malibu and pleased ya!

And yeah it does. That's why I require a high quality and rigid door pull. In a Corvette, with a flexing door panel, I'd have to feel all that flex when I pull it closed at high speeds. In the Bimmer, my 80 MPH door-close-pulls are met with no door panel resistance.
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  #120  
Old 11-07-2013, 07:53 AM
kk22 kk22 is offline
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Well, Its just awarded the Motor Trend Car of the year. Worth a test drive IMO. Design and material quality likely to put me off. :

Click..
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  #121  
Old 11-07-2013, 11:01 AM
2010drive 2010drive is offline
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Originally Posted by K-A View Post
Again, I have a higher sensitivity to quality materials than you do, simply put. It's all important to me. How dumb of M-B for wasting time putting nice aluminum buttons on the S Class. they could have used the same plastic ones available on a Chevy Malibu and pleased ya!

And yeah it does. That's why I require a high quality and rigid door pull. In a Corvette, with a flexing door panel, I'd have to feel all that flex when I pull it closed at high speeds. In the Bimmer, my 80 MPH door-close-pulls are met with no door panel resistance.
Like the plastic ones on your BMW? Corvette doors don't open themselves on the freeway so you don't need to worry about "all that flex".
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  #122  
Old 11-07-2013, 11:21 AM
bimmerbeamer bimmerbeamer is offline
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This thread delivers. Lots of fan bois make for a good read.
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  #123  
Old 11-07-2013, 01:30 PM
Fastpaddler Fastpaddler is offline
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Incidentally, regardless of which type BMW you are driving, a surprising percentage of the materials, switchgear, electronic systems and yes, even the basic dashboard look and layout--are ALMOST THE SAME. The window switches from a 3 series are the same as in a 550. Is there a law against this. What an insult to the high end buyers. Just saying....

AL
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  #124  
Old 11-07-2013, 04:23 PM
1973BMW 1973BMW is offline
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You guys are complaining about panel gaps, while my now departed 2011 550 sport sputtered and bucked for months until they finally replaced all the fuel injectors when I took it in and said "I won't take this car back until you put in all new injectors...period." They did. Now I see on this board a member who has a 2013 having the same issues.

Door panel gaps? How about if the damn things won't start or leave you stranded on a freeway? I'll take a gap. BMW used to be the only game in town in many folks opinion. Mine included. No more.

Until we, as buyers, convince them that we won't take anything less than The Ultimate Driving Machine (which it no longer is) then you're going to continue to see these big bloated BMW's floating along the roads.

Cadillac is taking weight off of their cars and tightening up the suspensions while adding horsepower. BMW's are getting bigger, gaining weight and putting nonsense monikers like
"M Sport" on all their models. I heard a motor journalist say it best "What does the M stand for now with BMW....Marketing."
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  #125  
Old 11-07-2013, 09:02 PM
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Stealth.Pilot Stealth.Pilot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1973BMW View Post
You guys are complaining about panel gaps, while my now departed 2011 550 sport sputtered and bucked for months until they finally replaced all the fuel injectors when I took it in and said "I won't take this car back until you put in all new injectors...period." They did. Now I see on this board a member who has a 2013 having the same issues.

Door panel gaps? How about if the damn things won't start or leave you stranded on a freeway? I'll take a gap. BMW used to be the only game in town in many folks opinion. Mine included. No more.

Until we, as buyers, convince them that we won't take anything less than The Ultimate Driving Machine (which it no longer is) then you're going to continue to see these big bloated BMW's floating along the roads.

Cadillac is taking weight off of their cars and tightening up the suspensions while adding horsepower. BMW's are getting bigger, gaining weight and putting nonsense monikers like
"M Sport" on all their models. I heard a motor journalist say it best "What does the M stand for now with BMW....Marketing."
I like what they have done with M. They now make the cars that suit the needs of people who can afford them.

The problem with these rags is they have no idea what a guy spending a $120k on a sports sedan actually wants.
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