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E90/E91/E92/E93 (2006 - 2013)
The E9X is the 4th evolution of the BMW 3 series including a highly tuned twin turbo 335i variant pushing out 300hp and 300 ft. lbs. of torque. BMW continues to show that it sets the bar for true driving performance! -- View the E9X Wiki

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  #1  
Old 10-31-2013, 07:16 PM
hman1 hman1 is offline
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An observation on MT vs AT

I've been driving since 1985. In that time, I have driven an Automatic for about 5,000 miles (mostly my wife's cars) and a manual for almost 400,000 miles (my cars). It's obvious which I prefer.

Last night, I picked up a loaner BMW X1 with an AT. I was excited to experience the turbo 4 with approx. 250hp and 250lbs of torque. It was not what I expected. As far as acceleration, engagement and excitement are concerned, it disappointed compared to my previous "lesser" vehicles: Integra GSR (170hp, 140lbs), A4 (180hp, ?lbs) and GTI (200hp, 211lbs). I could not control the car the way I wanted to and it left me frustrated in the same way that all ATs have left me.

For a bulky wagon, the car handled like a BMW, though.

If BMW offered a MT in the X1, they would have a sweet little niche wagon that would blow away the competition. The Audi Allroad isn't offered with an MT and I don't think the new Volvo V60 will come in a manual either. Honestly, if I were in the market for a wagon, I'd go with a Jetta Sportwagon over the X1 because of the transmission options.

I can't wait to get my car back. They are installing SIRIUS and taking care of a few paint chips on the bumper as part of our deal.

For a demented control freak like me and lots of others, a MT is more important than the car itself. We deserve a market...right?

H
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  #2  
Old 10-31-2013, 08:00 PM
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What specifically couldn't you "control" ???
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  #3  
Old 10-31-2013, 08:12 PM
ctuna ctuna is offline
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I bet you could get one with an MT in Europe

I bet you could get one with an MT in Europe
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  #4  
Old 10-31-2013, 08:37 PM
hman1 hman1 is offline
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Quote:
What specifically couldn't you "control" ???
The exact point in time that the car shifted. It is so important to so many of us who require a MT. Shifting is the biggest part of driving.

H
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  #5  
Old 10-31-2013, 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by hman1 View Post
The exact point in time that the car shifted. It is so important to so many of us who require a MT. Shifting is the biggest part of driving.

H
Well yes, that is the basic difference between a manual and an automatic.

However, I believe you can "control" the shifts with today's automatics by simply selecting manual mode.
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  #6  
Old 10-31-2013, 09:15 PM
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Majikthese42 Majikthese42 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hman1 View Post

Last night, I picked up a loaner BMW X1 with an AT.
I've had an X1 loaner -- I was more put off by the Auto Start Stop and the interior. I don't know if I would buy one if it came with a manual. BMW isn't selling the F31 wagon with a manual, either.

I'm unsure about VW's reliability. (Not that BMW is any better.)

It wasn't on my screen until everyone started dropping MT wagons, but there is a WRX STI wagon.
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  #7  
Old 10-31-2013, 10:24 PM
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You push a button & auto-start is disabled. The head of Porsche development asked about no MT being available vs having the DCT in the new GT3 said in this car we are interested in fast. Feel the same way, no way I can match the speed of the shifts in the 335is with the 135is. Beside the quick shift there is no break in the power delivery with the throttle at 100% the whole time.

MT is fun to play with but its the slow way home. the DCT is quicker, smoother & more precise than an MT so I don't see the more control part.

BTW Took my drivers exam on an MT in 1959 & the last car I bought has an MT.
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  #8  
Old 10-31-2013, 11:14 PM
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captainaudio captainaudio is offline
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An observation on MT vs AT

Quote:
Originally Posted by bear-avhistory View Post
You push a button & auto-start is disabled. The head of Porsche development asked about no MT being available vs having the DCT in the new GT3 said in this car we are interested in fast. Feel the same way, no way I can match the speed of the shifts in the 335is with the 135is. Beside the quick shift there is no break in the power delivery with the throttle at 100% the whole time.

MT is fun to play with but its the slow way home. the DCT is quicker, smoother & more precise than an MT so I don't see the more control part.

BTW Took my drivers exam on an MT in 1959 & the last car I bought has an MT.
Andreas Preuninger of Porsche, the model chief for the GT3 considers MTs a relic of a bygone era.
Last Saturday was I had lunch with a friend who just ordered a new GT3. He said he was very impressed with the 7 speed PDK but would miss the MT in the older GT3 he traded in. We took the Lime Rock Drivers Club M3, which has the DCT, out on the track for a while so he could practice shifting with the paddles.


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  #9  
Old 10-31-2013, 11:20 PM
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BMW is not doing any potential manual buyers any favours by charging them the same as a ZF 8 speed auto option. One of the many benefits of choosing the MT was the cheaper entry price. So who is going buy a MT these days, It's as if BMW want the MT to go the way of the dodo.
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  #10  
Old 11-01-2013, 04:01 AM
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The last time I looked through the BMW parts catalog, a replacement 6-speed manual transmission was priced higher than a replacement automatic transmission. Considering the amount of machine work that must go into building a 6-speed, I don't find this surprising. Some years ago, when 6-speeds were first introduced, a couple of manufacturers tried to charge a price premium for the 6-speed. That did not go over well with customers. Market forces dictate the transmission pricing structure, not the cost of production.

BMW claims identical 0-60 times for the 320i manual and automatic.

The Porsche PDK is faster than the 6 and 7 speed manuals, by a fraction of a second. Still, which transmission do most Porsche 911 buyers specify? (The PDK transmission lists for $4,080 on a 911 and the GT3 lists for $130,400. It should be faster.)

In the economy market segment, manual transmissions still seem to have some advantage both in acceleration and in fuel economy.

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/2...sion/index.htm

I telecommute (at the speed of light). I don't drive a manual transmission because it's faster or to save money. I drive a manual transmission because I think it's fun. Manual hatches/wagons/SUVs is a market segment that BMW has now abandoned. So it goes. If I need to buy a Honda Fit, Mini Cooper, VW, WRX STI or Porsche Cayenne next time to get the combination of 4 doors, a rear hatch and a manual transmission -- that's what I'll have to do.

http://www.caranddriver.com/features...l-headquarters
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  #11  
Old 11-01-2013, 04:09 AM
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captainaudio captainaudio is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Majikthese42 View Post
The last time I looked through the BMW parts catalog, a replacement 6-speed manual transmission was priced higher than a replacement automatic transmission. Considering the amount of machine work that must go into building a 6-speed, I don't find this surprising. Some years ago, when 6-speeds were first introduced, a couple of manufacturers tried to charge a price premium for the 6-speed. That did not go over well with customers. Market forces dictate the transmission pricing structure, not the cost of production.

BMW claims identical 0-60 times for the 320i manual and automatic.

The Porsche PDK is faster than the 6 and 7 speed manuals, by a fraction of a second. Still, which transmission do most Porsche 911 buyers specify? (The PDK transmission lists for $4,080 on a 911 and the GT3 lists for $130,400. It should be faster.)

In the economy market segment, manual transmissions still seem to have some advantage both in acceleration and in fuel economy.

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/2...sion/index.htm

I telecommute (at the speed of light). I don't drive a manual transmission because it's faster or to save money. I drive a manual transmission because I think it's fun. Manual hatches/wagons/SUVs is a market segment that BMW has now abandoned. So it goes. If I need to buy a Honda Fit, Mini Cooper, VW, WRX STI or Porsche Cayenne next time to get the combination of 4 doors, a rear hatch and a manual transmission -- that's what I'll have to do.

http://www.caranddriver.com/features...l-headquarters
According to Porsche when they were developing the GT3 the PDK was 4 seconds faster than the MT around the Nurbergring.

I don't get the "control" thing either but I do get that some find driving an MT more enjoyable and I hope BMW continues to make them available.

CA
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  #12  
Old 11-01-2013, 05:18 AM
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Majikthese42 Majikthese42 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
According to Porsche when they were developing the GT3 the PDK was 4 seconds faster than the MT around the Nurbergring.
0-60 times (according to Porsche). The Nurbergring isn't on my daily drive.

As transportation technology evolves it's going in the direction of electric and hybrid vehicles, in which a manual transmission is useless. It's even going in the direction of cars that drive themselves. That might be more efficient and even make traffic move faster, but I wouldn't find it a pleasurable experience.

Fortunately, there's probably more than enough of a supply of manual transmissions in the world to keep me happy until they throw dirt on top of me. If fewer people know how to operate manual transmissions, at least that should keep the price of the "classics" down. (I'd love to be able to buy a "bargain" 1963 Ferrari GTO because nobody could drive it!)
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Old 11-01-2013, 05:51 AM
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Mark K Mark K is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear-avhistory View Post
MT is fun to play with but its the slow way home. the DCT is quicker, smoother & more precise than an MT so I don't see the more control part.
I put food on my family's table with a completely different set of skills. Thank all Deities, current and obsolete, that lap times are NOT putting food on my table - my family and I would starve to death. And since laptimes aren't feeding me, why should I care about them? OK, let me rephrase this ... why should that be determining factor in choosing the transmission?

I do not need a BMW or Porsche or Alfa or whatever to transport me from A to B, 12 years old Chevy Cavalier in running order will do the job just fine. I buy those cars to have fun. Transmissions without clutch pedal are zero fun to me.

I don't know why are this "lap times" and "faster shifts" always on the front of the argument pro DCT or AT ... basically 99.999% of these cars sold (OK, 99% in the case of GT3) will NEVER, EVER see competition on a racetrack where people racing them are earning the living with those cars. So, who cares?

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
Andreas Preuninger of Porsche, the model chief for the GT3 considers MTs a relic of a bygone era.
So is a bow. Ask very skilled hunters which is more satisfying - killing the pray with a bow at less than 50 yards distance or hitting it at half-mile distance with a high-power round that hits true at 1,200 meters (almost 4,000 ft) and a scope that autoadjusts for wind and movement.

When you get the answer, ask yourself which of the weapons is a relic of a bygone era.

Now, if the hunter needs to eat and he/she will starve without pray, I'm pretty sure they'll RUN to grab that rifle when choice is presented, but as long as they are doing it for hobby/fun/sport ... you get my meaning.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Majikthese42 View Post
I telecommute (at the speed of light). I don't drive a manual transmission because it's faster or to save money. I drive a manual transmission because I think it's fun.
Winner.

Seemingly, a lot of Sunday racers do not understand that simple fact. Or are in denial about their racing skills.
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Old 11-01-2013, 05:56 AM
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One of the huge reasons I bought my 335 was for the manual. It excites me. It's fun. I find solace in the driver's seat.
At the same time, it's not the first time that corporate pressure has gone opposite to my desires. I'm good, and I'm always better when I'm running through a BMW gearbox.
Zen and the art of three pedals.
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Old 11-01-2013, 06:02 AM
daytrader daytrader is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xxE92 View Post
BMW is not doing any potential manual buyers any favours by charging them the same as a ZF 8 speed auto option. One of the many benefits of choosing the MT was the cheaper entry price. So who is going buy a MT these days, It's as if BMW want the MT to go the way of the dodo.
How would you be able to finish texting if you had to keep shifting!? but seriously the market has changed, most now don't want to have to shift nor do they really know how to properly, shift points. Just floor it and go...weeeee, oh yeah nice and boring but they know no difference commuting to and from Starbucks.
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Old 11-01-2013, 06:04 AM
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beden1 beden1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
According to Porsche when they were developing the GT3 the PDK was 4 seconds faster than the MT around the Nurbergring.

I don't get the "control" thing either but I do get that some find driving an MT more enjoyable and I hope BMW continues to make them available.

CA
That's interesting, as Fifth Gear raced a MT Cayman vs a PDK Cayman around a race track and the MT Cayman beat the PDK by a measurable margin. The PDK beat the MT in a quarter mile drag race.
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Old 11-01-2013, 07:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark K View Post
I put food on my family's table with a completely different set of skills. Thank all Deities, current and obsolete, that lap times are NOT putting food on my table - my family and I would starve to death. And since laptimes aren't feeding me, why should I care about them? OK, let me rephrase this ... why should that be determining factor in choosing the transmission?

I do not need a BMW or Porsche or Alfa or whatever to transport me from A to B, 12 years old Chevy Cavalier in running order will do the job just fine. I buy those cars to have fun. Transmissions without clutch pedal are zero fun to me.

I don't know why are this "lap times" and "faster shifts" always on the front of the argument pro DCT or AT ... basically 99.999% of these cars sold (OK, 99% in the case of GT3) will NEVER, EVER see competition on a racetrack where people racing them are earning the living with those cars. So, who cares?



So is a bow. Ask very skilled hunters which is more satisfying - killing the pray with a bow at less than 50 yards distance or hitting it at half-mile distance with a high-power round that hits true at 1,200 meters (almost 4,000 ft) and a scope that autoadjusts for wind and movement.

When you get the answer, ask yourself which of the weapons is a relic of a bygone era.

Now, if the hunter needs to eat and he/she will starve without pray, I'm pretty sure they'll RUN to grab that rifle when choice is presented, but as long as they are doing it for hobby/fun/sport ... you get my meaning.




Winner.

Seemingly, a lot of Sunday racers do not understand that simple fact. Or are in denial about their racing skills.
If you want a real challenge hunt with a knife so that the animal has a chance to fight back.

I clearly stated that I understood that some people enjoy driving MTs. I have also frequently stated that I enjoy driving MTs. Perhaps I am jaded because of my access to track time and track cars but I reached the point where shifting an MT in a street car became so automatic (perhaps a poor choice of words) that it just is not much of a challenge any more. I am equally comfortable driving an MT or an AT on the street and with an AT 99% of the time I am in automatic mode as I see little advantage to manual mode when I am in "transportation mode" driving at or slightly above the speed limit well below the limits of the car on public roads. But I can only speak for myself and respect that others may not feel the same way,

What I don't agree with is that an MT gives more "control". It would seem obvious that if the MT gave more control race teams would be using them. There is no prize given to the racer who had the most fun.

If you don't think that driving a paddle shifted car on a track at 10/10ths and trying to pull off a series of identical laps is a challenge perhaps you should try it some time. In my opinion the easiest high performance driving skill to master is shifting a manual transmission. Threshold braking, trail brake rotation, finding the proper braking, turn in points and apex points are much more difficult.

The car that I was talking about is a Porsche GT3. Few GT3 owners are using them as basic transportation and most take them to the track. The GT3 is a purpose built track car that happens to be street legal and the vast majority of GT3 owners have more than one car.

CA
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Last edited by captainaudio; 11-01-2013 at 07:16 AM.
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Old 11-01-2013, 07:23 AM
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EdCT EdCT is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Majikthese42 View Post
The last time I looked through the BMW parts catalog, a replacement 6-speed manual transmission was priced higher than a replacement automatic transmission. Considering the amount of machine work that must go into building a 6-speed, I don't find this surprising. Some years ago, when 6-speeds were first introduced, a couple of manufacturers tried to charge a price premium for the 6-speed. That did not go over well with customers. Market forces dictate the transmission pricing structure, not the cost of production.

BMW claims identical 0-60 times for the 320i manual and automatic.

The Porsche PDK is faster than the 6 and 7 speed manuals, by a fraction of a second. Still, which transmission do most Porsche 911 buyers specify? (The PDK transmission lists for $4,080 on a 911 and the GT3 lists for $130,400. It should be faster.)

In the economy market segment, manual transmissions still seem to have some advantage both in acceleration and in fuel economy.

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/2...sion/index.htm

I telecommute (at the speed of light). I don't drive a manual transmission because it's faster or to save money. I drive a manual transmission because I think it's fun. Manual hatches/wagons/SUVs is a market segment that BMW has now abandoned. So it goes. If I need to buy a Honda Fit, Mini Cooper, VW, WRX STI or Porsche Cayenne next time to get the combination of 4 doors, a rear hatch and a manual transmission -- that's what I'll have to do.

http://www.caranddriver.com/features...l-headquarters
Automatics are much more complicated and feature many more moving parts than manuals. Add to that complicated electronic modules and repair and replacement costs should be higher, overall.

Much like the tubes vs solid state debate, the transistor is a more complicated piece of engineering, yet it's won out over the vacuum tube.
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Old 11-01-2013, 07:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark K View Post
I put food on my family's table with a completely different set of skills. Thank all Deities, current and obsolete, that lap times are NOT putting food on my table - my family and I would starve to death. And since laptimes aren't feeding me, why should I care about them? OK, let me rephrase this ... why should that be determining factor in choosing the transmission?

I do not need a BMW or Porsche or Alfa or whatever to transport me from A to B, 12 years old Chevy Cavalier in running order will do the job just fine. I buy those cars to have fun. Transmissions without clutch pedal are zero fun to me.

I don't know why are this "lap times" and "faster shifts" always on the front of the argument pro DCT or AT ... basically 99.999% of these cars sold (OK, 99% in the case of GT3) will NEVER, EVER see competition on a racetrack where people racing them are earning the living with those cars. So, who cares?



So is a bow. Ask very skilled hunters which is more satisfying - killing the pray with a bow at less than 50 yards distance or hitting it at half-mile distance with a high-power round that hits true at 1,200 meters (almost 4,000 ft) and a scope that autoadjusts for wind and movement.

When you get the answer, ask yourself which of the weapons is a relic of a bygone era.

Now, if the hunter needs to eat and he/she will starve without pray, I'm pretty sure they'll RUN to grab that rifle when choice is presented, but as long as they are doing it for hobby/fun/sport ... you get my meaning.




Winner.

Seemingly, a lot of Sunday racers do not understand that simple fact. Or are in denial about their racing skills.
It's "prey", and a human shooting any animal with anything takes no skill at all ... jeeze ....
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Old 11-01-2013, 07:32 AM
daytrader daytrader is offline
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Automatics are much more complicated...Much like the tubes vs solid state debate, the transistor is a more complicated piece of engineering, yet it's won out over the vacuum tube.
Not in my home audio system, tubes rule but that debate is for other websites.
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Old 11-01-2013, 07:40 AM
Group27 Group27 is offline
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The one item that I have not seen discussed is safety. I feel that people who drive MT cars are more situationally aware than individuals who drive AT or DCT vehicles in auto mode. I would love to see some insurance company figures for accidents per 100k mile comparisons between MT and AT cars.
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Old 11-01-2013, 07:41 AM
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EdCT EdCT is offline
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Not in my home audio system, tubes rule but that debate is for other websites.
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Old 11-01-2013, 07:44 AM
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EdCT EdCT is offline
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Originally Posted by Group27 View Post
The one item that I have not seen discussed is safety. I feel that people who drive MT cars are more situationally aware than individuals who drive AT or DCT vehicles in auto mode. I would love to see some insurance company figures for accidents per 100k mile comparisons between MT and AT cars.
I've seen this said by others, but I don't buy it, I don't see any reason why it'd be true - in fact, think about it a minute, with an auto, you always have at least one hand free to drive with while the other is texting, drinking coffee, fooling with the I Drive etc. - with a manual, you're constantly having to shuffle those same tasks around with the additional responsibility of shifting.
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Old 11-01-2013, 07:53 AM
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captainaudio captainaudio is offline
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An observation on MT vs AT

Quote:
Originally Posted by Group27 View Post
The one item that I have not seen discussed is safety. I feel that people who drive MT cars are more situationally aware than individuals who drive AT or DCT vehicles in auto mode. I would love to see some insurance company figures for accidents per 100k mile comparisons between MT and AT cars.
I have seen this as a pro MT argument before. In my opinion anyone who needs to be shifting a manual transmission to pay attention to driving either needs some proper training or should not be driving at all. Manual transmission or not you are going to run into situations where you will be driving at a steady speed on a relatively straight and level interstate where you will be cruising at a steady speed for long periods of time without the need to change gears.


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Last edited by captainaudio; 11-01-2013 at 08:02 AM.
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Old 11-01-2013, 07:58 AM
surfcity335i surfcity335i is offline
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I don't drive a manual transmission because it's faster or to save money. I drive a manual transmission because I think it's fun.
And that, nowadays, is the bottom line. Personal preference. Logic plays almost no part because the numbers are nearly identical.
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