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F10 / F11 (2011 - Current)
The new chapter in the highly successful story of the BMW 5 Series Sedan (F10) and wagon (F11)

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  #76  
Old 11-05-2013, 04:37 PM
Gator_Bimmer Gator_Bimmer is offline
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Originally Posted by K-A View Post
Not using an RWD 535i with 704 was another slap in the face. I thought FINALLY with the facelift we'll get 704 BMW's getting tested which IMO would get them in 1st place even in rags again, but of course, C&D didn't do that, they used a base/float suspension car. Did the car even have SAT? I believe someone said no, so no 704 OR SAT or DHP for that matter? Nice. Pretty much un-tick every performance related option available.
No SAT, no 704 suspension (nor DHP), no increased top speed limit (not that it matters) and no performance summer tires. I honestly put more of the blame on the choice of the model in the test upon BMWNA and not C&D. After all, the C&D article does say: "Specifically, we asked for the face-lifted-for-2014, rear-drive 535i. That not being available, we accepted a four-wheel-drive 535i..."
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  #77  
Old 11-05-2013, 04:39 PM
Bmwlvr60 Bmwlvr60 is offline
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They also ranked the GS in front of the BMW too during Lexus's massive advertising campaign during the cars launch but yet they included the BMW.
Lexus GS 350

I'm trying to be fair here. I test drove the AWD Sport version and the non sport version. Being in NJ I can't have RWD car as my primary vehicle.

The sales guy let me take them out on my own and I took long rides with them. They were nice. I liked the interiors- especially the orangish and brown interior; reminded me of Bimmer's Amaro Merino- love that interior. There's a funky mouse lever for the Nav I don't like. Performed nicely and handled okay. The front end is contoversial I know- some times I like it, other times I don't. Lexus dealers in NJ are consistently professional. It's a pleasure to go in one. Lexus's are ultra reliable so I like the brand for many reasons.

HOWEVER, it's no 5 Series BMW. It doesn't handle as well. The cabin isn't as quiet. The interior isn't as elegant and the car doesn't feel as well made. It's not as incredibly handsome as our 5 Series and doesn't have on the fly navigation. It's mpg's are much lower.

Speaking of mpg's, with all my Japanese cars the rating was always a number I never achieved. With my 2 BMWs their mpg's come in higher that the rating- so we got that going for us, too.
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  #78  
Old 11-05-2013, 04:53 PM
bimmerbeamer bimmerbeamer is offline
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Did you test drive the Lexus 350 F sport? I thought it handled pretty well. Actually a little better than the 5. It is underpowered though. The interior is the best in class, IMO. Love the ambient LED lighting on the leather door trims and door handles. I agree with you. That mouse sucks.
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  #79  
Old 11-05-2013, 05:40 PM
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K-A K-A is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gator_Bimmer View Post
No SAT, no 704 suspension (nor DHP), no increased top speed limit (not that it matters) and no performance summer tires. I honestly put more of the blame on the choice of the model in the test upon BMWNA and not C&D. After all, the C&D article does say: "Specifically, we asked for the face-lifted-for-2014, rear-drive 535i. That not being available, we accepted a four-wheel-drive 535i..."
That's ridiculous. If BMW really have a say in what cars to supply here, then either they TRULY give no crap about magazine article outcomes or have their head too far in the sand to know how to participate in these events to "win". By giving a magazine who already has it out for them, is practically trolling them in every issue, a 4WD with no SAT, no 704 i.e BASE suspension, no DHP at least, then they almost deserve to lose.

Too bad, even with C&D having an obvious bias against them, a RWD, 704 535i with SAT would have had a far different outcome. Get with it BMW, at least supply the right cars to these tests or simply don't participate at all.
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  #80  
Old 11-05-2013, 05:42 PM
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Forgot to add that the 5 series is better looking too.
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  #81  
Old 11-05-2013, 06:23 PM
Bmwlvr60 Bmwlvr60 is offline
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Did you test drive the Lexus 350 F sport? I thought it handled pretty well. Actually a little better than the 5. It is underpowered though. The interior is the best in class, IMO. Love the ambient LED lighting on the leather door trims and door handles. I agree with you. That mouse sucks.
Yes I did. It handled okay, not nearly as good as the 5 Series. I didn't test drive the RWD version- that car doesn't sell much in NJ- test drove the AWD. The RWD version is the one the car magazines rave about. I liked the interior.
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  #82  
Old 11-05-2013, 06:39 PM
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I find it odd that so many people are bashing C&D and saying they have it in for BMW. They have worshipped BMWs for many, many years. I like my BMW a lot, but it's silly to be blinded into thinking just because we like it that it must be the better car. I agree that BMW did themselves no favors by sending them the car that they did, but it is not C&D's fault.
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  #83  
Old 11-05-2013, 06:51 PM
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I find it odd that so many people are bashing C&D and saying they have it in for BMW. They have worshipped BMWs for many, many years. I like my BMW a lot, but it's silly to be blinded into thinking just because we like it that it must be the better car. I agree that BMW did themselves no favors by sending them the car that they did, but it is not C&D's fault.
Ah, but the tide has turned. With the intro of the F10, and then the F30, Car and Driver HATES the BMW sedans.

Audi, however, has had their way with their reviews. It's ridiculous.
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  #84  
Old 11-05-2013, 06:54 PM
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Re: Latest C&D Comparison Test places LCI 535 Last....

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Originally Posted by jjsC6 View Post
I find it odd that so many people are bashing C&D and saying they have it in for BMW. They have worshipped BMWs for many, many years. I like my BMW a lot, but it's silly to be blinded into thinking just because we like it that it must be the better car. I agree that BMW did themselves no favors by sending them the car that they did, but it is not C&D's fault.
Exactly. It's like they had a typical fanboy mentality that went sour and now it's reversed (as fanboy mentality typically do in such extreme revenge fashion). They've been throwing cheap shots at BMW for awhile now and putting the facelift E Class ahead of the 5er seemed there to just get a rise out of people. It's ridiculously too far, c'mon.

I can understand the Audi appealing to their narrow tastes more but an E350 coming in ahead of even a horribly equipped and setup LCI F10 in a test that especially gauges sportiness above all else is just irresponsible "journalism".
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  #85  
Old 11-06-2013, 03:31 AM
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Or it could just be the writer's personal opinion. Not everyone has to think that the 5 Series is the best car in the segment. The point is that each of these cars caters to different customers and in the end the reviews mean nothing - it is the number of sales that count. While BMW is a good car, they have their flaws - as do Audis, Mercedes and Cadillacs.
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  #86  
Old 11-06-2013, 04:50 AM
jjsC6 jjsC6 is offline
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Ah, but the tide has turned. With the intro of the F10, and then the F30, Car and Driver HATES the BMW sedans.

Audi, however, has had their way with their reviews. It's ridiculous.
Yes, that is my point. C&D is not "biased" against BMW, they just don't like the direction they are going. People here on the forum are the first to admit that BMW is going a different direction, but they don't like it when the magazines point out the same. The magazines are not biased against cars, they are biased against cars that are not as good at the things that are important to the magazine testers.

BTW, as you know I have a close friend who has had a 2013 A8 (with the 420 hp engine) and now a 2014 S8 and I have driven both of them. They have impressed me tremendously.
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  #87  
Old 11-06-2013, 05:11 AM
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Originally Posted by K-A View Post
Exactly. It's like they had a typical fanboy mentality that went sour and now it's reversed (as fanboy mentality typically do in such extreme revenge fashion).
I tend to agree with that statment. C&D, like many members in here is in disagreement with BMW as far as their design direction. We see posts all the time about how the sky is falling because the new BMW models are softer, not sure how they can say that with a straight face when BMW is setting all kind of sales records. C&D have alway been a performance bias magazine, what get me scratching my head this time is why the E-class beat out the F10 even though it did not perform as well.
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  #88  
Old 11-06-2013, 05:16 AM
PeterC4 PeterC4 is offline
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Originally Posted by kaysid View Post
.

I am scratching my head at how it even came behind the MB in their overall rankings. Also it was a bit of an apples to oranges comparison, the Audi and BMW were AWD but the CTS and MB were RWD.

I could not find the article online yet on their website...
According to another thread in this forum on Car Reviews some would argue that the venue for testing the BMW was devoid of sufficient wine and women, hence the results.
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  #89  
Old 11-06-2013, 05:22 AM
PeterC4 PeterC4 is offline
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Originally Posted by Bmwlvr60 View Post
Lexus GS 350

I'm trying to be fair here. I test drove the AWD Sport version and the non sport version. Being in NJ I can't have RWD car as my primary vehicle.

The sales guy let me take them out on my own and I took long rides with them. They were nice. I liked the interiors- especially the orangish and brown interior; reminded me of Bimmer's Amaro Merino- love that interior. There's a funky mouse lever for the Nav I don't like. Performed nicely and handled okay. The front end is contoversial I know- some times I like it, other times I don't. Lexus dealers in NJ are consistently professional. It's a pleasure to go in one. Lexus's are ultra reliable so I like the brand for many reasons.

HOWEVER, it's no 5 Series BMW. It doesn't handle as well. The cabin isn't as quiet. The interior isn't as elegant and the car doesn't feel as well made. It's not as incredibly handsome as our 5 Series and doesn't have on the fly navigation. It's mpg's are much lower.

Speaking of mpg's, with all my Japanese cars the rating was always a number I never achieved. With my 2 BMWs their mpg's come in higher that the rating- so we got that going for us, too.
You don't need to get riled up...you know you can't trust those opinions...
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  #90  
Old 11-06-2013, 05:40 AM
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Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
I tend to agree with that statment. C&D, like many members in here is in disagreement with BMW as far as their design direction. We see posts all the time about how the sky is falling because the new BMW models are softer, not sure how they can say that with a straight face when BMW is setting all kind of sales records. C&D have alway been a performance bias magazine, what get me scratching my head this time is why the E-class beat out the F10 even though it did not perform as well.
Exactly. They can give awards to Caddies, Lexus', Audi's, etc. over BMW's now in their resentment for where the brand has gone, fine, it's a non sequitur to me. But giving an E350 a victory over a 535i, add to that the fact that the 535i is the WORST possible equipped version you can get on a performance and dynamics level, and that's just an outright troll slap. I can almost guarantee there's some behind the scenes resentment going on between the two and C&D are practically taunting BMW at this point. I mean, I hate the 5GT as much as the next guy, but they also gave the 5GT the #1 "Ugliest Car" award. It IS well deserved, but there are plenty of other ugly cars. It just makes sense that they give BMW another slap there.
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  #91  
Old 11-06-2013, 05:41 AM
bjayfan bjayfan is online now
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The LCI base suspension is almost functionally equivalent to the 704.
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Originally Posted by K-A View Post
Not at all. Many members here posted that the non-704 LCI felt like a "boat" or excessively floaty compared to the 704. Still a big difference, though maybe not as "night and day" as before. Enough of a difference to make test results drastically different for the F10.
Let's do a hypothetical: Suppose I'm right, and that BMW actually listened to a group of their customers, and that group is relatively small compared to the overall customer base, yet BMW takes an action that addresses that group while not impacting the overall core of customers, and that group still complains about it?
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  #92  
Old 11-06-2013, 06:00 AM
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BMW is trending to too much emphasis on luxury and too little on sport in the 5er. Leaving out the 704 M Sport Suspension until MY 2013 in the US was an indicator. Dropping it in the 2014 LCI M Sport fiasco is another indicator. Sport and performance in the 5 Series is not a priority now for the 5 Series. Let's face it that BMW's competitors have been hard at work on the performance side of their vehicles. Competition is a beautiful thing for the consumer. Hopefully BMW will wake up as a result of this article and enthusiasts feedback and give a higher priority to sport and performance in the 5er. And it needs to be done at a reasonable price point on the options.

Another aspect to this is by putting a BMW 5er AWD against the Audi AWD it shows that BMW is substantially behind Audi on AWD vehicles. AWD has been Audi's strong suit forever and their cars are designed for AWD. BMW's are primarily RWD vehicles that are adapted to AWD.
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  #93  
Old 11-06-2013, 06:13 AM
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bikenski bikenski is offline
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BMW is trending to too much emphasis on luxury and too little on sport in the 5er. Leaving out the 704 M Sport Suspension until MY 2013 in the US was an indicator. Dropping it in the 2014 LCI M Sport fiasco is another indicator. Sport and performance in the 5 Series is not a priority now for the 5 Series. Let's face it that BMW's competitors have been hard at work on the performance side of their vehicles. Competition is a beautiful thing for the consumer. Hopefully BMW will wake up as a result of this article and enthusiasts feedback and give a higher priority to sport and performance in the 5er. And it needs to be done at a reasonable price point on the options.

Another aspect to this is by putting a BMW 5er AWD against the Audi AWD it shows that BMW is substantially behind Audi on AWD vehicles. AWD has been Audi's strong suit forever and their cars are designed for AWD. BMW's are primarily RWD vehicles that are adapted to AWD.
I completely agree with everything you said.

BTW thank you for your work to get ED leases based off US MSRP. Without that I wouldn't be heading over to Munich in a few months to take delivery of a 550.

Think you can use your lobbying skills to convince BMW to stop bringing out niche models for every customer under the sun, and let the engineers go back to fretting over every nuance of the steering and suspension?
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  #94  
Old 11-06-2013, 07:05 AM
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WJGreer WJGreer is online now
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Originally Posted by pharding View Post
BMW is trending to too much emphasis on luxury and too little on sport in the 5er. Leaving out the 704 M Sport Suspension until MY 2013 in the US was an indicator. Dropping it in the 2014 LCI M Sport fiasco is another indicator. Sport and performance in the 5 Series is not a priority now for the 5 Series. Let's face it that BMW's competitors have been hard at work on the performance side of their vehicles. Competition is a beautiful thing for the consumer. Hopefully BMW will wake up as a result of this article and enthusiasts feedback and give a higher priority to sport and performance in the 5er.
There may be engineers over at BMW who agree with you, but from a sales and market share standpoint, the direction BMW took with the F10 5 series worked. Meanwhile, Mercedes is still putting up a good fight with the E Series, Audi A6 sales are way behind, and we'll see about the new CTS. I don't think ATS sales are setting the world on fire.

The truth: BMW is a car company first, and a builder of enthusiast vehicles second. Priorities to maximize revenue and market share within the general parameters of the brand's definition trump all, and that's why we have the F10 we have. To say that BMW is somehow losing and these other companies are winning is to replace their goal with yours.

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Another aspect to this is by putting a BMW 5er AWD against the Audi AWD it shows that BMW is substantially behind Audi on AWD vehicles. AWD has been Audi's strong suit forever and their cars are designed for AWD. BMW's are primarily RWD vehicles that are adapted to AWD.
Technically I think the A4 and A6 are both FWD platforms adapted for AWD, betraying the VAG heritage a little. I read somewhere that Subaru is the only company currently designing vehicles as AWD from the ground up.
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  #95  
Old 11-06-2013, 07:21 AM
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There may be engineers over at BMW who agree with you, but from a sales and market share standpoint, the direction BMW took with the F10 5 series worked. Meanwhile, Mercedes is still putting up a good fight with the E Series, Audi A6 sales are way behind, and we'll see about the new CTS. I don't think ATS sales are setting the world on fire.

The truth: BMW is a car company first, and a builder of enthusiast vehicles second. Priorities to maximize revenue and market share within the general parameters of the brand's definition trump all, and that's why we have the F10 we have. To say that BMW is somehow losing and these other companies are winning is to replace their goal with yours.
+1 There is no stronger statement to BMW than what you buy and what you don't buy.

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Technically I think the A4 and A6 are both FWD platforms adapted for AWD, betraying the VAG heritage a little. I read somewhere that Subaru is the only company currently designing vehicles as AWD from the ground up.
BMW has acknowledged several times recently that they essentially missed the mark on AWD, particularly with respect to sales and to a lesser extent with respect to driving dynamics. I'm actually excited to see where they go with this in the future, xDrive has only straight line benefits and if they can do things similar to what Porsche is doing they could kill two birds with one stone, so to speak.
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  #96  
Old 11-06-2013, 08:39 AM
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BMW has always reacted to market conditions in sometimes drastic ways - doing away with the bloated baroque angels to the 'new class' sport sedan in the early 60's - great grandfather of the 2002's and eventually 3 series. Big change and huge hit.

In the early 90's eat or be eaten auto sector, figured it wanted to expand market share with a lower end cheaper brand and went out and bought Rover - what a mistake, but we got MINI and RR. They recovered eventually and both MINI and RR could be viewed as hits.

Being the benchmark on sporty sedans virtually since the 60's it desires to take market share from E-class, Jag, Porsche, Lexus. The F series is a major hit -again. It's a major hit whether you like the suspension or not (I don't by the way - only sport with DHP)


The boys in Munich know what they are doing.


C&D? who cares. One of the cars was a BMW, the other three were just - well, cars.


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  #97  
Old 11-06-2013, 08:48 AM
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DUde, it's ugly. It looks like a carp.

Don't believe me? My friend and his family are serial Benz buyers. His mom buys a new S Class every 18 months as she does about 50,000 miles / year. He currently has 3 and has owned over 3 dozen, new and used. Needless to say, they are tight with their respective dealers.

The dealers have told them that people HATE the new facelift. The reaction has been so bad that MB is considering bringing the new E to market a full TWO model years prior.

This was confirmed by a conversation he had with a North East head of sales last weekend. NO ONE likes the new nose.
I'm not a big fan of the new look however this article from Reuters disputes your findings on the new nose. They say October sales rose 15.3% for new sales record for the month of October. And much of that sales success was due to the new E Class.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/mercedes-be...111740058.html
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  #98  
Old 11-06-2013, 10:09 AM
Bmwlvr60 Bmwlvr60 is offline
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You don't need to get riled up...you know you can't trust those opinions...
Consumer Reports loves the Lexus GS-350
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  #99  
Old 11-06-2013, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by WJGreer View Post
There may be engineers over at BMW who agree with you, but from a sales and market share standpoint, the direction BMW took with the F10 5 series worked. Meanwhile, Mercedes is still putting up a good fight with the E Series, Audi A6 sales are way behind, and we'll see about the new CTS. I don't think ATS sales are setting the world on fire.
The sales numbers between the F10 and the A6 is a lot closer than you think. In 2012, BMW sold 337,929 units of 5 series worldwide, including the the 5 GT. Audi sold 306,463 unit of A6 and A7. Mercedes E class, 310,408. Pulling up the rear are Cadillac CTS, 51,674 and Lexus GS350, 13,634
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Old 11-06-2013, 11:23 AM
BlackBerryCubed BlackBerryCubed is offline
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