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F10 / F11 (2011 - Current)
The new chapter in the highly successful story of the BMW 5 Series Sedan (F10) and wagon (F11)

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  #101  
Old 11-06-2013, 01:07 PM
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WillInDenver WillInDenver is offline
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Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
The sales numbers between the F10 and the A6 is a lot closer than you think. In 2012, BMW sold 337,929 units of 5 series worldwide, including the the 5 GT. Audi sold 306,463 unit of A6 and A7. Mercedes E class, 310,408. Pulling up the rear are Cadillac CTS, 51,674 and Lexus GS350, 13,634
I admit, that is closer than I thought. The naked eye test here in Denver, where Audis are very popular indeed, is still 2 or 3 BMW 5 Series for every A6. On the other hand, I see 2 or 3 A4s for every 3 series and very few F30s.

I bet those Lexus GS results are for the previous version; I'd exepct to see a bump for the new model, but I've only ever seen a couple of them on the road.
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  #102  
Old 11-06-2013, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by WJGreer View Post
I admit, that is closer than I thought. The naked eye test here in Denver, where Audis are very popular indeed, is still 2 or 3 BMW 5 Series for every A6. On the other hand, I see 2 or 3 A4s for every 3 series and very few F30s.

I bet those Lexus GS results are for the previous version; I'd exepct to see a bump for the new model, but I've only ever seen a couple of them on the road.
The A6 is very popular in Asia and Europe, about 5 years ago, the A6 out sold the 5 series worldwide.
Those Lexus GS sales numbers are for the 2012 calendar year, the 4th gen GS was introduced in Aug 2011, so those sales numbers are for the current gen. I cannot say I am too surprise at the GS' sales numbers. The GS is only sold in the US, Canada and a few other selected countries. When it first came out, I visited the Lexus dealer and they had a waiting list and wanted MSRP. About 6 mouth later, it was selling at or below invoice.
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  #103  
Old 11-06-2013, 02:25 PM
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BMW is trending to too much emphasis on luxury and too little on sport in the 5er. Leaving out the 704 M Sport Suspension until MY 2013 in the US was an indicator. Dropping it in the 2014 LCI M Sport fiasco is another indicator. Sport and performance in the 5 Series is not a priority now for the 5 Series. Let's face it that BMW's competitors have been hard at work on the performance side of their vehicles. Competition is a beautiful thing for the consumer. Hopefully BMW will wake up as a result of this article and enthusiasts feedback and give a higher priority to sport and performance in the 5er. And it needs to be done at a reasonable price point on the options.

Another aspect to this is by putting a BMW 5er AWD against the Audi AWD it shows that BMW is substantially behind Audi on AWD vehicles. AWD has been Audi's strong suit forever and their cars are designed for AWD. BMW's are primarily RWD vehicles that are adapted to AWD.
I'd say BMW made a pretty smart move, at least as far as the US market is concerned. Previous models, ZSP-equipped ones most especially, were wonderful to drive in Europe on smooth and well-maintained roads. But in the US (just see the disclaimers BMW puts in the Owner Manual) they were up to their ears in tire bubbles, bent and broken wheels, and suspension damage. The new approach, particularly with DHP, has pretty much put an end to that.
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  #104  
Old 11-06-2013, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
The sales numbers between the F10 and the A6 is a lot closer than you think. In 2012, BMW sold 337,929 units of 5 series worldwide, including the the 5 GT. Audi sold 306,463 unit of A6 and A7. Mercedes E class, 310,408. Pulling up the rear are Cadillac CTS, 51,674 and Lexus GS350, 13,634
If you are going to quote a6 and a7 numbers combined, shouldn't you also combine f10 and f11 numbers?
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  #105  
Old 11-06-2013, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Pringle View Post
If you are going to quote a6 and a7 numbers combined, shouldn't you also combine f10 and f11 numbers?
I believe it is combined, F10, F11 and F07.
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  #106  
Old 11-06-2013, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
I believe it is combined, F10, F11 and F07.
Right but if it's including F07 then the BMW competitor to that is actually the F06. So that should be included. Won't make much difference though - F06 sales are anemic.


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  #107  
Old 11-06-2013, 03:53 PM
Bmwlvr60 Bmwlvr60 is offline
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According to another thread in this forum on Car Reviews some would argue that the venue for testing the BMW was devoid of sufficient wine and women, hence the results.
Wine, women and you forgot song.

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Last edited by Bmwlvr60; 11-06-2013 at 03:59 PM.
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  #108  
Old 11-06-2013, 03:56 PM
Bmwlvr60 Bmwlvr60 is offline
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Originally Posted by kaysid View Post
I just got my December edition of Car & Driver which has a 4 way comparison test with following cars in finishing order:

4. BMW 535i Xdrive
3. MB E350
2. Cadillac CTS 3.6
1. Audi A6 3.0T

Not a good showing for the bimmer, their main complaint was with the steering, handling, ride and general weight of the car (heaviest in test).

However performance was best in test, with a 0-60 of 5.3 seconds, 1/4 mile in 13.9 @100. Road-holding was second best at .86g, but slalom speed was slowest at 40.1 mph.

I am scratching my head at how it even came behind the MB in their overall rankings. Also it was a bit of an apples to oranges comparison, the Audi and BMW were AWD but the CTS and MB were RWD.

I could not find the article online yet on their website...

I see no ads for BMW in the online Car & Driver magazine. I think you'll find there won't be any in the print edition either.
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  #109  
Old 11-06-2013, 04:16 PM
jjsC6 jjsC6 is offline
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Originally Posted by Bmwlvr60 View Post
I see no ads for BMW in the online Car & Driver magazine. I think you'll find there won't be any in the print edition either.
There is a two page ad in the October C&D for the new 4 series. The "conspiracy" theories against C&D are ridiculous.
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  #110  
Old 11-06-2013, 04:41 PM
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I think there could be some substance to that reviewers tend to compare the F10 mainly to it's predecessors instead of giving it a fair shake in relation to the competition. The expectations are rightfully a lot higher on the BMW and when they feel it fails to deliver to usual standards they treat it harshly in the results. I can't believe it's worse than the Benz.

Last edited by solstice; 11-06-2013 at 04:44 PM.
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  #111  
Old 11-06-2013, 05:37 PM
Gator_Bimmer Gator_Bimmer is offline
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Originally Posted by Gator_Bimmer View Post
No SAT, no 704 suspension (nor DHP), no increased top speed limit (not that it matters) and no performance summer tires. I honestly put more of the blame on the choice of the model in the test upon BMWNA and not C&D. After all, the C&D article does say: "Specifically, we asked for the face-lifted-for-2014, rear-drive 535i. That not being available, we accepted a four-wheel-drive 535i..."
More on the topic of the F10 selection choice that BMW chose to provide for this test... My assumption (that the xdrive 535i did not have DHP) comes from C&D saying "Thanks to its M Sport package ($3150) and a couple of expensive convenience bundles, the 535i rang in as our priciest entrant at $67,600." So to me that does not leave price room for DHP, nor is it a "convenience bundle" but we'll have to wait to see if we can tell for sure if it had DHP when the web version is available with more pictures or info.

Also, something that either contradicts above (i.e. maybe it had DHP?), or shows that C&D was not made aware of what option their F10 actually had... they said in the E350 section: "The Mercedes was the only car without a selectable sport setting for its suspension."

Last edited by Gator_Bimmer; 11-06-2013 at 05:39 PM.
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  #112  
Old 11-06-2013, 05:43 PM
bluejayfan bluejayfan is offline
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Originally Posted by solstice View Post
I think there could be some substance to that reviewers tend to compare the F10 mainly to it's predecessors instead of giving it a fair shake in relation to the competition. The expectations are rightfully a lot higher on the BMW and when they feel it fails to deliver to usual standards they treat it harshly in the results. I can't believe it's worse than the Benz.
Right train of thought, but I'd think it differently.

F10 sales are infinitely better than E60 sales and reviewers tend to be the type that wants the sports first type of car. At this point I'd say that BMW really doesn't care what the reviewers say as building cars for what the reviewers wants keeps BMW as a minor player in the industry. It's pure business.

Whether the cars BMW makes are better or not is totally subjective, to those that buy them, and today in much higher numbers, they're great. To those who used to buy the older cars they're not. Both are right.

Last edited by bluejayfan; 11-06-2013 at 05:45 PM.
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  #113  
Old 11-06-2013, 08:19 PM
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I've haven't written here in a while. I read the article. Not having driven the Benz, I couldn't comment on it. However, the new CTS Cadillac is getting raves from every car mag I've seen. It's lighter and faster than the BMW 535, it's benchmark. I think they've hit their target and BMW is the worst for it.

I just gave back on lease my 550 ix with Dinan Stage 2 and ACS springs. With all that, it wasn't what I expected from a BMW. I've been a fan for over 30 years. No more. My BMW mechanic, when I told him I was done with BMW, said "They're not making those cars for you anymore, they're making it for your dentist." (no offense to dentists.)

It is not The Ultimate Driving Machine any longer. They've let that idea go for increase in sales. I had an Audi S7 ordered, which I drove and liked a lot. However, at the last minute I found a low mileage pre owned Panamera Turbo with some factory warranty and a CPO certificate. NOW THAT'S A DRIVING MACHINE! It cost me 10 k more than the Audi, but worth every penny. Killer fast and handles like a 911. Not sure how they did it, but the car is incredible.

That being said, it can be done. A 4 door that handles like a sports car. If Porsche can do it, BMW can do it. They just have to have the will to go back to their roots. I hope some day they do.
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  #114  
Old 11-06-2013, 08:34 PM
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"If Porsche can do it, BMW can do it". You bet they can. They've done it all these years, it just changed with the F series cars. New priorities, strategy and execution. It's working for them this far. You and I do not like it but for each of us there are five that do. Porsche is the only brand left outside exotics that cater for us, unfortunately to a 50% price premium and there are still some "holes" in the lineup. I'm missing a smaller four seater. It's in the works though.

Last edited by solstice; 11-06-2013 at 08:37 PM.
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  #115  
Old 11-06-2013, 09:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gator_Bimmer View Post
Also, something that either contradicts above (i.e. maybe it had DHP?), or shows that C&D was not made aware of what option their F10 actually had... they said in the E350 section: "The Mercedes was the only car without a selectable sport setting for its suspension."
They saw a switch on the 535i that toggles between Comfort and Sport, and probably just assumed that it adjusts the suspension. Plenty of dealers and owners think so too until they/we learn the subtleties of what that switch does depending on the options on the car.




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  #116  
Old 11-06-2013, 09:19 PM
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Sonicendeavor Sonicendeavor is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
I think there could be some substance to that reviewers tend to compare the F10 mainly to it's predecessors instead of giving it a fair shake in relation to the competition. The expectations are rightfully a lot higher on the BMW and when they feel it fails to deliver to usual standards they treat it harshly in the results. I can't believe it's worse than the Benz.
+1. Reviewers, including Consumer Reports, put too much emphasis on comparing a car to it's predecessor. It's ok for manufacturers that make incremental changes, but when a new model represents a significant change in design or target audience, the car should be reviewed on its own merits rather than comparing it to it's predecessor.
That said, the 5 series would fare better in these reviews if it went on a diet.
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  #117  
Old 11-06-2013, 09:22 PM
Gator_Bimmer Gator_Bimmer is offline
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Originally Posted by mness View Post
They saw a switch on the 535i that toggles between Comfort and Sport, and probably just assumed that it adjusts the suspension. Plenty of dealers and owners think so too until they/we learn the subtleties of what that switch does depending on the options on the car.
Yup, agreed that is likely what happened.
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  #118  
Old 11-06-2013, 09:25 PM
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Do you guys truly think C&D doesn't know what suspension is on a car they're testing? I find that next to impossible to believe.
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  #119  
Old 11-06-2013, 09:54 PM
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K-A K-A is offline
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I'm not a big fan of the new look however this article from Reuters disputes your findings on the new nose. They say October sales rose 15.3% for new sales record for the month of October. And much of that sales success was due to the new E Class.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/mercedes-be...111740058.html
That's more likely due to the natural sales boost of a facelift that's been overdone enough to trick people into thinking that it's a new model. IMO M-B buyers don't really criticize the design of their brand-of-choices cars as much as BMW buyers do, i.e they just accept and assume that because Mercedes did it, it's good enough, especially the E line.

Also, already with this "new design" E Class they're throwing out the door for deals akin to what a 328i goes for. M-B knows the E can't stand on its own if it sells for remotely near what a 535i does, so dealers let them go for near nothing. I've gotten numerous ads for facelift E's already for like $379 a month with minimal down, it's crazy.
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  #120  
Old 11-06-2013, 09:56 PM
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I had the same mind set last year when I was shopping for my car. I figured Cadillac must be doing something right if all these auto megazines are ranking it so high, so I added the CTS to my shopping list. To make a long story short, lets just say my Cadillac shopping experience was a big downer. The saleman did not know much about the car, I mean even less than they normally do. I had a question about how to activate voice command, it took about half an hour for a sales manager to answer the question. Needless to say, I did not bother to ask any more questions. The test drive itself was underwhelming, the car did handle pretty good, but the powertrain was lacking. The interior material was a grade below BMW's and the ergonomics was horrible. I do realized that the CTS is about $15000 leas than the 535i, but in the C&D test, price was not a factor and in my opinion, the 535i is much better over all sedan than the CTS and if pirce is not a factor, there is no doubt I would buy the F10 over the CTS.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WJGreer View Post
...

I can't imagine any situation where I would buy a CTS over a BMW. I might consider an E-Class Coupe, but the sedan looks too stodgy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
...
Those 4 cars in the C&D comparo were on my shopping list the last two times I were shopping for a new car. The F10 and the A6 were always tie in my mind, thus I had owned both. The MB350 came in 3rd and the CTS were always last. Can someone please explain to me why the CTS rate so high in most comparo, I still havent figure it out after numerous test drives.
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Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
The article compare the 535i to a CTS, I can see a ATS beating the 535i as far as performance, but not the CTS.
FYI, all Caddies may look alike but C&D is using 3rd generation CTS for the comparo test. MY2014 CTS is quite a different vehicle than its 2013 counterparts. It is not only lighter but also sit an inch lower + wider front & rear track (new Alpha chassis).



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  #121  
Old 11-06-2013, 10:01 PM
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^
Photos above are MY 2014 CTS vs. MY 2013 CTS.
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  #122  
Old 11-06-2013, 10:03 PM
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There is a two page ad in the October C&D for the new 4 series. The "conspiracy" theories against C&D are ridiculous.
Just 'cause BMW advertises with them at all isn't really the entire point. If there is a resentment from C&D in regards to ads, BMW could have lessened their ad spending to C&D, or could be being outspent by their competition, etc. All of this can naturally affect their sentiment from C&D.
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  #123  
Old 11-07-2013, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Needsdecaf View Post
DUde, it's ugly. It looks like a carp.

Don't believe me? My friend and his family are serial Benz buyers. His mom buys a new S Class every 18 months as she does about 50,000 miles / year. He currently has 3 and has owned over 3 dozen, new and used. Needless to say, they are tight with their respective dealers.

The dealers have told them that people HATE the new facelift. The reaction has been so bad that MB is considering bringing the new E to market a full TWO model years prior.

This was confirmed by a conversation he had with a North East head of sales last weekend. NO ONE likes the new nose.
I know this is a BMW forum so I expect the bashing but let's be serious, that's not true. The E-class has been running on ~6 year generation cycles, the next gen would have to come out now in order for that to be true. The Benz insider forums have said nothing of the sort and you're completely going off heresay. The S-class was launched for the 2014, C-class for model year 2015, then the E-class will bow for model year 2016.

I personally don't find the nose unattractive in person all though I still think its ugly in pictures. Like I said, I understand the bias but there's no reason to act like the E-class is some sort of ruined, worthless vehicle.
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  #124  
Old 11-07-2013, 11:15 AM
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First, I like the new front fascia on the E Class. It looks like a curvy MSport fascia.

Second, I just saw a multipage advertisement for the Chevy SS. If I was inclined to give the Cadillac serious consideration, I would also need to give the SS a look. Personally, I think it looks much better than the Caddy.




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  #125  
Old 11-07-2013, 11:41 AM
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In other news, Motor Trend just awarded the 2014 Car of the Year award to the Cadillac CTS.
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