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E30 (1982 - 1993)
God's Chariot. The E30 was produced primarily from 1982 through 1991. The cabriolet was the one exception which was produced through 1993.

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  #1  
Old 11-04-2013, 12:57 PM
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cmac2012 cmac2012 is offline
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Injectors

I posted this at the end of another thread and got no response. Thread is likely dead. There had been a mention of installing new injectors as a good first step for performance upgrade (I think).

Reliability at this point is big for me. My rig is running well long past a point that it ought to, going with conventional wisdom anyhow. The injectors are original AFAIK. I often wonder if something is going to go bad with those at an inconvenient time before too long.

With new injectors, is there some sort of performance upgrade possible with those or do new ones just function better?
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  #2  
Old 11-04-2013, 04:09 PM
markseven markseven is offline
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There's a member on this board (MEPEH) that rebuilds and sells injectors. He rebuilt my S14's injectors (they are working well), and coincidentally, this evening I am picking up M50 units to put on my stock M20B25. $66 shipped, which is an outstanding price.
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Old 11-04-2013, 09:13 PM
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cmac2012 cmac2012 is offline
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That is good. Thanks for the tip.
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Old 11-05-2013, 05:19 AM
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Your car needs a certain amount of fuel to run at its best, any more or less & you not smiling !
I usualy have my injectors tested and if neccesary reconditioned. Ocasionally one or 2 do not come right or are different from the others in flow- then my injector guru will replace them for me
Fitting bigger ones call for a tune !
Using a different spraypattern from stock....
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Old 11-05-2013, 06:04 AM
markseven markseven is offline
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Originally Posted by Nick323 View Post
Your car needs a certain amount of fuel to run at its best, any more or less & you not smiling !
I usualy have my injectors tested and if neccesary reconditioned. Ocasionally one or 2 do not come right or are different from the others in flow- then my injector guru will replace them for me
Fitting bigger ones call for a tune !
Using a different spraypattern from stock....
Everything I have read suggests nothing greater than 17lb injectors for a stock M20B25.

The M50 injectors have a more efficient pintel design which is definitely a plus.

There are quite a few people running these units and have passed CA smog, which is the what swayed me to give em a try.
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Old 11-05-2013, 09:36 AM
MEPEH MEPEH is offline
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I'll chime in

First of all, i'll tell you about the challenge of accurately testing an injector. There are hundreds of companies that test/refurb injectors and they all use different equipment and testing fluids.
I use an environmentally friendly degreaser just because i don't feel like using dangerous chemicals in my home garage, But others use other fluids and all these fluids are different from real gas. Even the gas at the pump will have different fluidity in different parts of the world
So the same injector will show different results tested with different fluids. That's why the manufacturer suggests that your 6 injectors should flow equally with a 2% error margin. They also suggest the flow rate but it's just a guidance.
It is important to have balanced injectors and less important to have that flow rate exactly as mentioned by the manufacturer

Both M20 and M50 injectors are considered 17 pound injector.. it's about 160 cc/min. In real life you will have somewhere between 150cc/min to 170 cc/min. That's why we flow match to get a set of 6 injectors that are within 2% of each other (per mfg recommendations)
The difference is the spray pattern and since M50 injectors have better atomization (they mix air with fuel better in the chamber) you will get bigger explosions and more energy generated from the same mix of fuel/air.

What matters to your engines is keeping the stock Air Fuel Ratio in a stock configuration. Since vehicles operate at different altitude and use different fuels, the DME is able to tune the ignition to maintain a stable AFR
I don't remember precisely, but it can adjust about 2-5%

I test injectors in pulse mode and i can see how challenging it is for a DME to maintain the same flow rate on 6 injectors under different RPMs .. needle type injectors especially (M20 blue tops or ETA gray tops)
M50 injectors do a way better job at keeping a stable flow rate in different modes. I test them at way above your car's RPMs sometimes just to see how well they perform and Green Top M50 injectors are just superior.

I scrap about 20 injectors a week and a lot of times i put them to stress test... FOR FUN
I run them at 7-8 of fuel pressure at 10k RPM to see where and what injectors will fail... and i'll tell you that the stock M20 injectors are just Sad to watch, especially the ETA gray tops.. those are like watching 80 yo old grandpa racing on a sport bike in the canyons

And lastly.. experience... I've sold over 1000 injectors last year just for this upgrade. Shipped all over the world to people with M20 engines that wanted the M50 injectors. There are people running this upgrade at different altitudes and different climates
I've had 0 complains so far and 0 issues testing emissions on any of those cars.

If any of you purchase this upgrade from me and feel that you are not satisfied with the results, i will exchange that set for a stock rebuilt M20 set without charging you any extra. I used to remind people about it all the time, but stopped doing it because everyone seems happy with the upgrade.
Here's one of the latest reviews about this upgrade
http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/show...&postcount=240

I had a request for a set of 6 stock M20 715 blue top injectors this weekend and i knew i had 12 of those and was confident that i could pick 6 good ones out of 12..
Well, i scraped 10 injectors and was able to keep only 2 out of 12 that i had. Failure rate is just ridiculous on those, especially if the car has been sitting for over 2-3 months
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Last edited by MEPEH; 11-05-2013 at 10:09 AM.
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  #7  
Old 11-05-2013, 09:54 AM
MEPEH MEPEH is offline
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Another thing to add is "Testing injectors without reconditioning" is not a great idea.
You put wear on the o-rings when you pull them in and out of the fuel rail or the testing equipment and the health of your orings is very important.
Upper worn orings will leak fuel on the head and cause fire.
Lower orings will let air leak into the chamber. This air is not metered by the MAF so you will have more air and less fuel and your DME will not know what's going on.
They are very close to the Hot head and loos their elasticity in time and fail alot quicker that the tops ones that are connected to a gas cooled fuel rail. New lower orings and flow matched injectors is what gives you the smooth idle we love
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Old 11-05-2013, 01:04 PM
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I bought Mustang GT injectors because they flowed pretty close to the same just they had a 4 hole design versus the one hole ours come factory. Better atomization, and less expensive then factory replacements most of the time.

But I work in a parts store and had access to some flow charts of different injectors. Companies normally don't give them out but I had one left over from a DSM build I did.
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Last edited by Newman271; 11-05-2013 at 01:06 PM.
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  #9  
Old 11-05-2013, 07:39 PM
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cmac:

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  #10  
Old 11-05-2013, 09:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MEPEH View Post
M50 injectors do a way better job at keeping a stable flow rate in different modes. I test them at way above your car's RPMs sometimes just to see how well they perform and Green Top M50 injectors are just superior.
Sounds good. I just did an inventory check at the three local Pick n Pulls in my range and 325i and 525i models in the early to mid 90s are well represented. This have the M50, unless I miss my guess. So would the best route be to get about 12 of those and ship them to you for a yield of 6 good ones?

And do they plug right in to the M20?
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  #11  
Old 11-05-2013, 09:26 PM
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cmac:

Dang, I'm like, a believer and stuff.

I'm hoping they're a snap to take out. Never done it.
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Old 11-06-2013, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by cmac2012 View Post
Dang, I'm like, a believer and stuff.

I'm hoping they're a snap to take out. Never done it.
I will post a link to the DIY that I feel is good. It involves pulling the valve cover to gain better access to the injectars, so you'll need a VC gasket as well. The M50 injectors are plug-n-play.
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Old 11-06-2013, 10:48 AM
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Perfect. I've been wanting to adjust my valves as well so I'll get double duty from the new gasket.
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Old 11-06-2013, 04:58 PM
markseven markseven is offline
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Originally Posted by cmac2012 View Post
Perfect. I've been wanting to adjust my valves as well so I'll get double duty from the new gasket.
Here ya go:

http://www.pelicanparts.com/bmw/tech...r_cleaning.htm

One of the commenters recommends removing the VC; once you look at the space you have to work with, it makes sense.

Another commenter recommends hitting the lower part of the injectors with WD-40 to loosen them up a bit. IDK if this will help, but I am going to do eet.
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  #15  
Old 11-06-2013, 10:43 PM
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cmac2012 cmac2012 is offline
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^ Great. Thanks. I think I'll practice at the boneyard first.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick323 View Post
Your car needs a certain amount of fuel to run at its best, any more or less & you not smiling !
I usualy have my injectors tested and if neccesary reconditioned. Ocasionally one or 2 do not come right or are different from the others in flow- then my injector guru will replace them for me
Fitting bigger ones call for a tune !
Using a different spraypattern from stock....
I read a DYI account somewhere online by a guy who put Mustang injectors into an E30 M20 and he claimed that the computer took 3 periods of driving to 'learn' the new injectors. Is that for real? The computer can learn?

But I can certainly believe that too much fuel is just not going to help.
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Last edited by cmac2012; 11-06-2013 at 10:53 PM.
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  #16  
Old 11-07-2013, 08:31 AM
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Yes, the ECU "adapts" to changes in the system. The engine will probably run rich for the first cycle or two after changing the injector size/type to injectors that deliver more fuel. The 'Stang injectors work better because of the more modern pintle. It atomizes the fuel so much better than the OEM single port "squirter".
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Old 11-07-2013, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmac2012 View Post
^ Great. Thanks. I think I'll practice at the boneyard first. I read a DYI account somewhere online by a guy who put Mustang injectors into an E30 M20 and he claimed that the computer took 3 periods of driving to 'learn' the new injectors. Is that for real? The computer can learn?

But I can certainly believe that too much fuel is just not going to help.
See post #8

I had them in my m20 before I swapped over to "big bertha"(3.5) so I put them in the 3.5 motor too . Ran a little rich on start up for a while but the car felt more alive than with the old clean injectors.
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Old 11-07-2013, 11:41 AM
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Which M30 did you use, and what ECU? I know some of the M30 ECUs take high-impedance injectors, and some take low-impedance, and they aren't cross-compatible AFAIK. I own two E24s and would love to upgrade to a more modern injector set that uses a multi-port pintel.
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Old 11-07-2013, 01:55 PM
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M30B35 and the 179 ecu. I used with motronic 1.0 and 1.3 with no problems. The part number I used was 822-11124... from GB Injectors. 98 Mustang GT 4.6. My employee price was 27.99 and 10 core's but since no cores to return they were 37.99 a piece.
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Old 11-07-2013, 01:59 PM
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If you need other part numbers: Motorcraft's > CM4778 .. Standard Injection > FJ713
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Old 11-07-2013, 02:08 PM
markseven markseven is offline
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See post #8
I was going to say...
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Old 11-08-2013, 02:00 AM
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cmac2012 cmac2012 is offline
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Well yeah, I saw that, but it was somewhere else I saw the part about the ECU learning how to play with new injectors, and it was also Mustang injectors in that case. I'm going to have to get busy, I can probably get a bunch of green top injectors on the Pick n' Pull really good price plan. I'll buy a few of them.
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Old 11-08-2013, 08:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmac2012 View Post
Well yeah, I saw that, but it was somewhere else I saw the part about the ECU learning how to play with new injectors, and it was also Mustang injectors in that case. I'm going to have to get busy, I can probably get a bunch of green top injectors on the Pick n' Pull really good price plan. I'll buy a few of them.
I think the green tops your talking about are called green meanies... there found on the Ford Lightning. That'll be too much injector for your stockish car(would work great for a turbo though). Mine are yellow tops which flow 2% better than stock but atomize much better.
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  #24  
Old 11-09-2013, 02:03 AM
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cmac2012 cmac2012 is offline
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Went to Pick n Pull today, found a '99 323i - I think, they really scrawled the info badly on this one. Hate to admit, I'm not real keen on knowing the difference tween the E36 and E46. At any rate, Wikipedia states that the 323i in both series had the M52. The injectors and fuel rail were exposed on this one so I took these shots. I didn't have tools with me - I went mainly to get used tires for my truck - there's a hustle I do, if you're going in to look at tires with no tools you get in for free, otherwise it's $2 admission. So I look at tires and then mosey on over to scope out the inventory. Anyway, tomorrow (later today actually) I'm going back to get them.

The question is: are these the green tops in question? The color is a pale green and it's not an M50, best I can tell.

*EDIT* I found thread on Bimmerforums that claims the M52 injectors are 21.5 pounders.



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Last edited by cmac2012; 11-09-2013 at 02:22 AM.
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Old 11-11-2013, 07:52 PM
markseven markseven is offline
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cmac, sorry to hijack your thread, but this is crazy. I don't know how my old injectors were flowing anything but maybe a dribble of gas.

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