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E90/E91/E92/E93 (2006 - 2013)
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  #1  
Old 11-06-2013, 07:45 AM
pspa328xit pspa328xit is offline
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Please help.... multiple misfires.. not coils, injectors, plugs, not fuel system

hello all

I am a noobie to the forum and bmws. i am not a diy mechanic.

i have a 07 328xit 48,xxx miles


I did read through to try and find help, saw really nothing that matched my misfire issue. Alot of similar issues but most seemed to be solved with plugs,coils,injectors or intake clean
All of those have been ruled out.

Only purchased the car in june no issues until after oil change were ingector cleaner was added to fuel tank.

Seems to only happen under load

Misfire in cylinders 1,2,3 and multiple code ... (will update with code #'s asap)
SES light blinks then goes solid orange
Car loses power and engine knocks
If i come to a complete stop or restart car, ses light stays on but no performance issues.

had coils and plugs replaced new - same issue

took it back to my indy shop (very well known and respected in bmw world, since 70's)
high pressure fuel rail treatment performed- still same thing
they said without taking engine apart there is no direct cause they can find. They said they only got the code to show under full load...

Well this morning on an uphill with rpm in 2.5-3 range... SES light went off again but this time it went straight to solid orange with no blinking and no noticible performance issues.

They said not carbon build up, vanos or cam sensor.

Again i will get the code #'s and update...

I am trying to figure if this is worth trying to find a fix or cutting my losses and moving on

Thanks in advance...any suggestions welcome
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  #2  
Old 11-06-2013, 07:51 AM
pspa328xit pspa328xit is offline
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oh yeah when pulled the plugs they looked brand new, no fouled look or smell
no history of this happening before (at least on file with bmw)
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  #3  
Old 11-06-2013, 07:52 AM
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CALWATERBOY CALWATERBOY is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pspa328xit View Post
hello all

I am a noobie to the forum and bmws. i am not a diy mechanic.

i have a 07 328xit 48,xxx miles


I did read through to try and find help, saw really nothing that matched my misfire issue. Alot of similar issues but most seemed to be solved with plugs,coils,injectors or intake clean
All of those have been ruled out.

Only purchased the car in june no issues until after oil change were ingector cleaner was added to fuel tank.

Seems to only happen under load

Misfire in cylinders 1,2,3 and multiple code ... (will update with code #'s asap)
SES light blinks then goes solid orange
Car loses power and engine knocks
If i come to a complete stop or restart car, ses light stays on but no performance issues.

had coils and plugs replaced new - same issue

took it back to my indy shop (very well known and respected in bmw world, since 70's)
high pressure fuel rail treatment performed- still same thing
they said without taking engine apart there is no direct cause they can find. They said they only got the code to show under full load...

Well this morning on an uphill with rpm in 2.5-3 range... SES light went off again but this time it went straight to solid orange with no blinking and no noticible performance issues.

They said not carbon build up, vanos or cam sensor.

Again i will get the code #'s and update...

I am trying to figure if this is worth trying to find a fix or cutting my losses and moving on

Thanks in advance...any suggestions welcome

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.....what could be left to check....and right after fuel tmt added....

INJECTORS! Rebuildable, you may've loosened crud now causing issues. Good Indy can check op....spray pattern, etc.
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  #4  
Old 11-06-2013, 07:56 AM
pspa328xit pspa328xit is offline
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thanks ran concetrated techron through the fuel rail. and said they saw no issues. i will definitley check back with them again on that
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  #5  
Old 11-06-2013, 10:00 AM
pspa328xit pspa328xit is offline
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had codes run at autozone today after light came back on this morning as mentioned no blinking
misfire again of cylinder 1,3,2 and mulitple cylinder misfire
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  #6  
Old 11-06-2013, 08:35 PM
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CALWATERBOY CALWATERBOY is offline
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Originally Posted by pspa328xit View Post
had codes run at autozone today after light came back on this morning as mentioned no blinking
misfire again of cylinder 1,3,2 and mulitple cylinder misfire

Autozone? No, no, no, NO!

They do not readout BMW proprietary, hidden, or shadow codes.
THIS or THAT
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  #7  
Old 11-07-2013, 04:25 AM
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DSXMachina DSXMachina is offline
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Originally Posted by CALWATERBOY View Post
Autozone? No, no, no, NO!

They do not readout BMW proprietary, hidden, or shadow codes.
THIS or THAT
Of course you are correct, but we may have overlooked something. Notice he had an oil change done at the same time as adding the fuel system cleaner. We may be focussing on the wrong thing. Who did the oil change? What kind of filter was used? Was it installed correctly?

Variable valve systems are extremely sensitive to incorrect oil viscosity and fluctuating pressure. If the oil change got screwed up it could be the source of all the problems.

It seems strange that this good indy BMW specialist wants to tear the engine down without doing an MRI first. Surgery before diagnosis doesn't make sense. A recording scanner needs to be connected to the car and the car then driven. Make the MIL/CEL come on. Now go back to the shop dump the data stream and see exactly what happened when the light came on. Not to be smartass about it, but this is basic.

The flashing light meant an excessive rich exhaust flow (Danger! Cats about to melt down!). Ungood. But guess what, a lean mix can result in excess fuel! How is that possible? Not enough fuel was injected to light off when it sparked, but enough fuel was flushed out on the exhaust stroke to cook a cat. This may be what's happening because there was no carbon fouling reported by the OP. There's lots of cam funkiness which can also be going on and that's where my money is.

Cam timing requests (desired angle) are commanded by the PCM, controlled by the VANOS gear, recorded by sensors and sent back to the PCM. Everything going on can be recorded and reviewed by a tech.

The first l thing I'd look at (based solely on the OP's info at this point) is whether there is a vacuum leak. Cylinders 1-2-3 throwing codes? Ducks in a row. Why them and not, say, 1,4,6? Coincidence? Maybe. Maybe not. Gotta start with information and without a rolling scan we're jumping the gun.

Could be injectors gunked up. If so the PCM knows it and is trying like crazy to lean or richen the mix. A quick glance at STFT (short term fuel trim) and injector pulse time will tell the tech if the injectors are messing up. This isn't rocket surgery.

Bottom line is we're all guessing, I'm guessing. The OP has to find a shop that really knows how to diagnose a driveability issue and pay them to do what they do.

Last edited by DSXMachina; 11-07-2013 at 04:28 AM.
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  #8  
Old 11-07-2013, 04:29 AM
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CALWATERBOY CALWATERBOY is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSXMachina View Post
Of course you are correct, but we may have overlooked something. Notice he had an oil change done at the same time as adding the fuel system cleaner. We may be focussing on the wrong thing. Who did the oil change? What kind of filter was used? Was it installed correctly?

Variable valve systems are extremely sensitive to incorrect oil viscosity and fluctuating pressure. If the oil change got screwed up it could be the source of all the problems.

It seems strange that this good indy BMW specialist wants to tear the engine down without doing an MRI first. Surgery before diagnosis doesn't make sense. A recording scanner needs to be connected to the car and the car then driven. Make the MIL/CEL come on. Now go back to the shop dump the data stream and see exactly what happened when the light came on. Not to be smartass about it, but this is basic.

The flashing light meant an excessive rich exhaust flow (Danger! Cats about to melt down!). Ungood. But guess what, a lean mix can result in excess fuel! How is that possible? Not enough fuel was injected to light off when it sparked, but enough fuel was flushed out on the exhaust stroke to cook a cat. This may be what's happening because there was no carbon fouling reported by the OP. There's lots of cam funkiness which can also be going on and that's where my money is.

Cam timing requests (desired angle) are commanded by the PCM, controlled by the VANOS gear, recorded by sensors and sent back to the PCM. Everything going on can be recorded and reviewed by a tech.

The first l thing I'd look at (based solely on the OP's info at this point) is whether there is a vacuum leak. Cylinders 1-2-3 throwing codes? Ducks in a row. Why them and not, say, 1,4,6? Coincidence? Maybe. Maybe not. Gotta start with information and without a rolling scan we're jumping the gun.

Could be injectors gunked up. If so the PCM knows it and is trying like crazy to lean or richen the mix. A quick glance at STFT (short term fuel trim) and injector pulse time will tell the tech if the injectors are messing up. This isn't rocket surgery.

Bottom line is we're all guessing, I'm guessing. The OP has to find a shop that really knows how to diagnose a driveability issue and pay them to do what they do.

OP: Y'see? There is no substitute for experience.

Saltin' this tasty bit away for future reference.

.

Last edited by CALWATERBOY; 11-07-2013 at 04:31 AM.
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  #9  
Old 11-07-2013, 06:15 AM
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Solenoids? Even without the precious "codes"?
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Old 11-07-2013, 06:28 AM
new guy jet new guy jet is offline
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Re: Please help.... multiple misfires.. not coils, injectors, plugs, not fuel system

I'm having a problem with my speakers they have a knocking sound coming from them. Are my speakers blown

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  #11  
Old 11-07-2013, 06:42 AM
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I'm having a problem with my speakers they have a knocking sound coming from them. Are my speakers blown

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Yes.
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  #12  
Old 11-07-2013, 01:16 PM
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DSXMachina DSXMachina is offline
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I'm having a problem with my speakers they have a knocking sound coming from them. Are my speakers blown

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Yes.
Try premium gas before replacing the speakers. Higher octane can make the knock go away.
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  #13  
Old 11-07-2013, 01:55 PM
hondo402000 hondo402000 is offline
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some stations sell 100 octane gas, its only 7;15 a gallon, I tried a tank full for the hell of it

why

be cause I can

didnt do anything noticeable except drain my wallet
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  #14  
Old 11-07-2013, 02:08 PM
new guy jet new guy jet is offline
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Re: Please help.... multiple misfires.. not coils, injectors, plugs, not fuel system

I only use premium gas when I turn the volume up the knocking beings

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  #15  
Old 12-12-2013, 08:11 AM
pspa328xit pspa328xit is offline
if the wagon is a rockin
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after three weeks in the shop... a different shop. I am left with guesses still. Vacumm leak checked, sensors checked (cam eccentric shaft o2's) injectors checked, the have dumped the live data and nothing stands out.... left me with dme may be going. they have gone through everything (they say ) that could could cause the misfire and nothing seemed out of place. valves and intake checked too. Most of the diagnosis was done on their dime. they checked vanos and swapped a valvetronic motor. I quit smoking to buy this car... today is the day they got a new dme and are dropping it in.

Gonna take an extra blood pressure pill, bum a smoke and cross my fingers this is it otherwise.

If not dme i will try and get data stream to post.
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  #16  
Old 12-12-2013, 08:14 AM
bmoneyg bmoneyg is offline
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Check your oil cap for seal

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  #17  
Old 12-12-2013, 10:07 AM
pspa328xit pspa328xit is offline
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i will check that for sure but wouldnt that effect the entire engine. something is happening only with bank 1. they have checked intake, compression, combustion and exhaust and nothing mechanically wrong. cats looked fine not fried. that is what is leading us to the electronics. should know by eod today or tomorrow at latest.
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Old 12-12-2013, 11:29 AM
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i will check that for sure but wouldnt that effect the entire engine. something is happening only with bank 1. they have checked intake, compression, combustion and exhaust and nothing mechanically wrong. cats looked fine not fried. that is what is leading us to the electronics. should know by eod today or tomorrow at latest.
Oil cap won't create a huge vacuum loss, just a mess in the engine bay.
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  #19  
Old 12-12-2013, 04:23 PM
bmoneyg bmoneyg is offline
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Misfiring

I remember once not putting my oil cap on securely and when I started my car it ran like it was misfiring. The cap was on but it was not flush so no mess.
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Old 12-13-2013, 05:43 AM
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DSXMachina DSXMachina is offline
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I remember once not putting my oil cap on securely and when I started my car it ran like it was misfiring. The cap was on but it was not flush so no mess.
Absolutely correct! About a year ago I went through a problem similar to the OP's on a customer's Audi. After hours of dead end diagnosis of what we were certain were vacuum related codes we found the problem to be...the freakin' O-ring on the dipstick had rolled off! It allowed higher than algorithm'ed pressures to feed back through the emission control system. This unmetered air fed in downstream of the mass air flow system resulted in lean misses.
Now, whenever we are diagnosing a vacuum related problem, the first two things we check are the dipstick seal and the oil filler cap. Why does a vacuum leak which would seem to affect all cylinders sometimes only affect a few? Anyone care to guess? Hint; the incoming air has mass and that mass may be variable or stratified. Hint 2; if the oil filler cap were loose on a turbocharged car (no dipstick on a 335i) the same problem would not occur.
Repeating an earlier post: I have no idea what's wrong with the OP's car. There have to be BMW specific codes and we need those for starters. One other point. He got an oil change and a "fuel system cleaning". Absent any codes I'd pull all 6 injectors and send them for spray and volume testing. We know how finicky those things can be...

[One way to test for vacuum leaks is to use propane from an unlit propane torch. You run the torch all around the suspect area and watch for an rpm change. It will only be a blip because the O2 sensors will instantly tell the ECU to adjust for it, but it'll be there. I don't suggest the average person do this. I am a trained stunt mechanic working off-road in specially prepared vehicles. ]
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Old 12-13-2013, 05:53 AM
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CALWATERBOY CALWATERBOY is offline
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Originally Posted by DSXMachina View Post
Absolutely correct! About a year ago I went through a problem similar to the OP's on a customer's Audi. After hours of dead end diagnosis of what we were certain were vacuum related codes we found the problem to be...the freakin' O-ring on the dipstick had rolled off! It allowed higher than algorithm'ed pressures to feed back through the emission control system. This unmetered air fed in downstream of the mass air flow system resulted in lean misses.

OK - in hurry this morn - can we translate to: PCV valve feeding inappropriate ammt of crankcase gas to intake?

In which case: Disconnect & plug PCV inlet into intake. Do NOT plug route/hose/tube/whatever from crankcase or engine can't breath as provided.

How's she run?


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Old 12-13-2013, 05:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSXMachina View Post
Absolutely correct! About a year ago I went through a problem similar to the OP's on a customer's Audi. After hours of dead end diagnosis of what we were certain were vacuum related codes we found the problem to be...the freakin' O-ring on the dipstick had rolled off! It allowed higher than algorithm'ed pressures to feed back through the emission control system. This unmetered air fed in downstream of the mass air flow system resulted in lean misses.
Now, whenever we are diagnosing a vacuum related problem, the first two things we check are the dipstick seal and the oil filler cap. Why does a vacuum leak which would seem to affect all cylinders sometimes only affect a few? Anyone care to guess? Hint; the incoming air has mass and that mass may be variable or stratified. Hint 2; if the oil filler cap were loose on a turbocharged car (no dipstick on a 335i) the same problem would not occur.
Repeating an earlier post: I have no idea what's wrong with the OP's car. There have to be BMW specific codes and we need those for starters. One other point. He got an oil change and a "fuel system cleaning". Absent any codes I'd pull all 6 injectors and send them for spray and volume testing. We know how finicky those things can be...

[One way to test for vacuum leaks is to use propane from an unlit propane torch. You run the torch all around the suspect area and watch for an rpm change. It will only be a blip because the O2 sensors will instantly tell the ECU to adjust for it, but it'll be there. I don't suggest the average person do this. I am a trained stunt mechanic working off-road in specially prepared vehicles. ]

Not to 100% discount the oil cap causing misfires, but why is it we hear horror stories of techs forgetting the cap, only for a customer to find the mess, and the engine had functioned perfectly otherwise? I have had to replace the OE cap on my S54 and S65 because of leaks, and if I hadn't seen some oil on the valve cover, I would never have noticed. Here is the old cap vs new (left):
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  #23  
Old 12-13-2013, 06:31 AM
pspa328xit pspa328xit is offline
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Please help.... multiple misfires.. not coils, injectors, plugs, not fuel system

Injectors were swapped with new no change.... Oil cap is interesting I thought they said they checked that but definitely worth asking. The shop I am now at has been in touch w bmw corp and autologic to try and figure out what is going on. But neither could help. I don't now the numbers but coded we're misfire cylinder 1,2,3 and multiple no ghost or hidden that they told me. The autologic system should be able to read any / all codes?


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Old 12-13-2013, 11:40 AM
pspa328xit pspa328xit is offline
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Please help.... multiple misfires.. not coils, injectors, plugs, not fuel system

Oil cap fine, new dme did nothing. They went back checked timing.. All good. On to cam wheel then wiring harness. They have smoked intake three times on an off car. Ugh


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Old 12-13-2013, 12:21 PM
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Oil cap fine, new dme did nothing. They went back checked timing.. All good. On to cam wheel then wiring harness. They have smoked intake three times on an off car. Ugh


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Have they performed a leak-down test or compression test of any kind? Fuel pump flow tested if possible, although, if only 3 cylinders are having the issue, fuel isn't likely.
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