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E90/E91/E92/E93 (2006 - 2013)
The E9X is the 4th evolution of the BMW 3 series including a highly tuned twin turbo 335i variant pushing out 300hp and 300 ft. lbs. of torque. BMW continues to show that it sets the bar for true driving performance! -- View the E9X Wiki

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  #1  
Old 11-08-2013, 11:31 PM
OnTheMoveOut OnTheMoveOut is offline
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Question Can I use 224M's to track my E92x?

I have a 2010 335i M Sport coupe with xDrive.

I'm looking for a second set of wheels to put summer tires on to track the car when it gets warmer.

I found a set of 224M's, which look like the 193's that are on the car except that the rears are 1/2 inch wider, and wanted to know if they'd work.
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  #2  
Old 11-09-2013, 05:43 AM
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DSXMachina DSXMachina is offline
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What do you mean by "work"? Do you mean "fit"? Fit so that the tires don't rub? Or work to give your car neutral balance when fitted with tires appropriate to the track and speeds you expect to achieve? We need a lot more info and the fact that you don't seem to realize that makes me question whether you should even be considering tracking your car.
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  #3  
Old 11-09-2013, 05:50 AM
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They get kind of cranky when it starts getting cold up there.
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  #4  
Old 11-09-2013, 06:01 AM
OnTheMoveOut OnTheMoveOut is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSXMachina View Post
What do you mean by "work"? Do you mean "fit"? Fit so that the tires don't rub? Or work to give your car neutral balance when fitted with tires appropriate to the track and speeds you expect to achieve? We need a lot more info and the fact that you don't seem to realize that makes me question whether you should even be considering tracking your car.
Seriously? Why so condescending? Who made you the track gatekeeper?

I do just fine on the track.

I was asking if the 224M's would have a problem with fitment on a 335ix because they're normally for an E85/86M. I was worried if there were differences with the offset that might cause an issue with the brakes or rubbing somewhere else.

I also wanted to know if the 224M was a good wheel for the track in general. I thought it might be since it's standard on an M car.

Finally, yes I would know to choose an appropriate tire for these wheels based on speed and track conditions I anticipated. Do you?
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  #5  
Old 11-10-2013, 06:06 AM
fdriller9 fdriller9 is offline
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With xdrive, look for a square wheel/tire setup. These cars are setup to under steer from the factory...it's safer to understeer than to oversteer for most people.

Unless you start changing sways, adding camber plates up front, etc, you will increase under steer with a staggered setup.

Also if you don't mount the correct tire sizes (front vs rear rolling diameters must be within 1% of each other) you have the potential to lock up the transfer case.
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  #6  
Old 11-10-2013, 06:56 AM
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DSXMachina DSXMachina is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OnTheMoveOut View Post
Seriously? Why so condescending? Who made you the track gatekeeper?

I do just fine on the track.

I was asking if the 224M's would have a problem with fitment on a 335ix because they're normally for an E85/86M. I was worried if there were differences with the offset that might cause an issue with the brakes or rubbing somewhere else.

I also wanted to know if the 224M was a good wheel for the track in general. I thought it might be since it's standard on an M car.

Finally, yes I would know to choose an appropriate tire for these wheels based on speed and track conditions I anticipated. Do you?
Excellent response, and good questions. It would have been a big help to us in understanding what you hoped to achieve if you had made the above post your first one.
I can't recall much in the way of posts in regard to Z wheels on the 3 series. We're usually talking about 17s, 18s and 19s, whether staggered M's offer any real advantage and so on. I have no experience to draw on, but might have a workaround for you on the technical aspect.

TireRack has a great wheel configurator which compares fitment of various wheel and tire combinations on any particular car. What you could do is find a wheel which is good for the Z (stock or close to stock) and see how it goes on the 3. Then you could mount various rubber on it and check their configurator to see if that wheel and tire combination willl fit.

As far as rubber goes, I've tried a variety of tires over the years and would pick a forgiving tire rather than one which has the most adhesion. We're out there for fun, though we certainly don't want to look bad having fun. My point is that we don't have a potfull of cash waiting for us if we 'win', so taking chances with tires to gain a half second per lap doesn't factor into the equation. I've found that a tire which begins to slowly let go and sends out all kinds of signals that it's letting go, is safer for me than a tire with more adhesion which snaps loose at higher g's. Needing to drive my car home has always been a tempering influence in how I've driven and what kind of tires I've chosen.

As for wheels, I'd go with whatever fits and has a style you like. Staggered or not, to me and my track style, has not been a factor. I have staggered M 19's, and stock and aftermarket 18's with different tires. Fdriller made a point about AWD which is important to keep in mind and hasn't been an issue for my E92 being RWD. Try out that TireRack configurator and see if it's any help as to fitment.
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  #7  
Old 11-10-2013, 09:58 AM
MNBimmer335 MNBimmer335 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSXMachina View Post
Excellent response, and good questions. It would have been a big help to us in understanding what you hoped to achieve if you had made the above post your first one.
I can't recall much in the way of posts in regard to Z wheels on the 3 series. We're usually talking about 17s, 18s and 19s, whether staggered M's offer any real advantage and so on. I have no experience to draw on, but might have a workaround for you on the technical aspect.

TireRack has a great wheel configurator which compares fitment of various wheel and tire combinations on any particular car. What you could do is find a wheel which is good for the Z (stock or close to stock) and see how it goes on the 3. Then you could mount various rubber on it and check their configurator to see if that wheel and tire combination willl fit.

As far as rubber goes, I've tried a variety of tires over the years and would pick a forgiving tire rather than one which has the most adhesion. We're out there for fun, though we certainly don't want to look bad having fun. My point is that we don't have a potfull of cash waiting for us if we 'win', so taking chances with tires to gain a half second per lap doesn't factor into the equation. I've found that a tire which begins to slowly let go and sends out all kinds of signals that it's letting go, is safer for me than a tire with more adhesion which snaps loose at higher g's. Needing to drive my car home has always been a tempering influence in how I've driven and what kind of tires I've chosen.

As for wheels, I'd go with whatever fits and has a style you like. Staggered or not, to me and my track style, has not been a factor. I have staggered M 19's, and stock and aftermarket 18's with different tires. Fdriller made a point about AWD which is important to keep in mind and hasn't been an issue for my E92 being RWD. Try out that TireRack configurator and see if it's any help as to fitment.

You bring up something I have been thinking about. I finally had the time to take my 335xi to the track this summer. I have the stock Continental ContiProContact SSR RFT. While I have found them to be EXCELLENT in the snow, slop and ice of the winter here, They made ALL SORTS OF NOISE on corners and in hard braking. I don't know that much about tires, but, it seems these are what you were referring to in terms of "warning" instead of letting go. AWD kind of changes that concept too, and I agree, the understeer was really a pain trying to push out of corners. I really didn't feel I could be very fast through the corners due to the constant scrubbing of the wheels, but, if I reduced my entry speed so that didn't happen then I was more of a roadblock to the others.

Since it sounds like you have a good deal of experience with Tires, could you elaborate on the tires in question vs other good options?
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  #8  
Old 11-10-2013, 05:00 PM
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DSXMachina DSXMachina is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MNBimmer335 View Post
You bring up something I have been thinking about. I finally had the time to take my 335xi to the track this summer. I have the stock Continental ContiProContact SSR RFT. While I have found them to be EXCELLENT in the snow, slop and ice of the winter here, They made ALL SORTS OF NOISE on corners and in hard braking. I don't know that much about tires, but, it seems these are what you were referring to in terms of "warning" instead of letting go. AWD kind of changes that concept too, and I agree, the understeer was really a pain trying to push out of corners. I really didn't feel I could be very fast through the corners due to the constant scrubbing of the wheels, but, if I reduced my entry speed so that didn't happen then I was more of a roadblock to the others.

Since it sounds like you have a good deal of experience with Tires, could you elaborate on the tires in question vs other good options?
Ah tires... A subject both simple and complex, and about which there are as many opinions as there are people who track their cars.
First, the quick answer about what I meant when I said a tire was forgiving. Tires hold on, adhere, until they don't. Then you're sliding sideways or worse, or skidding to a stop. Generally those of us who track have a greater problem with the sliding (sideways) than the stopping. Slowing or stopping usually is or becomes more of a hardware issue than a tire issue. But fighting the G force is all about the tires (once balance and suspension is set).
As the sideways force increases on a tire various things happen. First, design of the sidewall to tread transition comes into play; is it a sharp edge or a rolled corner? Then the sidewall buckles allowing the contact area to deform and lose adhesion in some areas. Eventually the side force exceeds the grip and the car slides. Some very sticky tires don't make much noise when they begin to slide, and when they let go it is very sudden. Only the most competent drivers have the reflexes needed to control the car and recover when that happens.
'Forgiving' tires tend to make a lot of noise which increases as the tires begin to slip, and at the same time the driver can feel the car begin to crab sideways in little stutter steps. An alert driver senses he is on the edge and ensures the car is kept balanced through the slip. If the tires let go the driver can generally recover very quickly because when the tires slip they might retain, say, 95% of their grip. Non-forgiving tires might fail at higher G's but then drop to 70% of non-skidding grip leaving a much greater time period before recovery. The greater the time period the less likely the recovery will be successful.
Tire pressure, tire temperature and chassis setup all affect how any given tire will adhere. Then, even once the perfect tire is found, it might have to change if you go to a different track. Finally, rain changes everything. What's perfect for the dry could be the worst possible choice for the wet.
Like I said, a simplification, but I hope I hit the main points.

PS Can't comment on the stock runflats, I took mine off as soon as I got my car re-delivered and they've been off ever since. Have used four different tires at the track and have my opinions, but they're valid really only to me and on that particular day.

Last edited by DSXMachina; 11-10-2013 at 05:04 PM.
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  #9  
Old 11-11-2013, 04:29 AM
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///M-ratedE90 ///M-ratedE90 is online now
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Ventus RS-3 or Nitto NT-05 are both excellent hardwearing, grippy tires for daily driver cars going to the track that offer good value and can deal with the weight/suspension of a 3 series. I have run both on my M3 and were selected after seeing what other 3 series were running at the track. They larger tread "blocks" than most summer tires. The flexing of the tread block assists in the tire over heating, getting sloppy or chunking.

Avoid using run-flats as they get too hot too quickly.

Don't worry about understeer. When it is a routine problem, you will be driving at a very good level and start learning how to deal with it - and you'll probably be needing new tires anyway at that point. Buying a "square" set up will help with this and allow front/rear swapping to spread wear.

As for wheel, rather than pick up a set of used BMW wheels, take a look at Apex Racing Parts (http://www.apexraceparts.com) ARC-8 wheels. They are excellent wheels with a great reputation in the M3 track-o-sphere at a good price. They sell wheels with the correct off-set for your car that will fit in your wheel wells, as long as you buy the right tire. You probably want the 18" rims, as 19" afford very little side wall and 17" too much (sort of) to roll over onto.
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Last edited by ///M-ratedE90; 11-11-2013 at 04:39 AM.
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  #10  
Old 11-16-2013, 10:33 AM
MNBimmer335 MNBimmer335 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSXMachina View Post
Ah tires... A subject both simple and complex, and about which there are as many opinions as there are people who track their cars.
First, the quick answer about what I meant when I said a tire was forgiving. Tires hold on, adhere, until they don't. Then you're sliding sideways or worse, or skidding to a stop. Generally those of us who track have a greater problem with the sliding (sideways) than the stopping. Slowing or stopping usually is or becomes more of a hardware issue than a tire issue. But fighting the G force is all about the tires (once balance and suspension is set).
As the sideways force increases on a tire various things happen. First, design of the sidewall to tread transition comes into play; is it a sharp edge or a rolled corner? Then the sidewall buckles allowing the contact area to deform and lose adhesion in some areas. Eventually the side force exceeds the grip and the car slides. Some very sticky tires don't make much noise when they begin to slide, and when they let go it is very sudden. Only the most competent drivers have the reflexes needed to control the car and recover when that happens.
'Forgiving' tires tend to make a lot of noise which increases as the tires begin to slip, and at the same time the driver can feel the car begin to crab sideways in little stutter steps. An alert driver senses he is on the edge and ensures the car is kept balanced through the slip. If the tires let go the driver can generally recover very quickly because when the tires slip they might retain, say, 95% of their grip. Non-forgiving tires might fail at higher G's but then drop to 70% of non-skidding grip leaving a much greater time period before recovery. The greater the time period the less likely the recovery will be successful.
Tire pressure, tire temperature and chassis setup all affect how any given tire will adhere. Then, even once the perfect tire is found, it might have to change if you go to a different track. Finally, rain changes everything. What's perfect for the dry could be the worst possible choice for the wet.
Like I said, a simplification, but I hope I hit the main points.

PS Can't comment on the stock runflats, I took mine off as soon as I got my car re-delivered and they've been off ever since. Have used four different tires at the track and have my opinions, but they're valid really only to me and on that particular day.
Thanks for the great insights.
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