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F30 / F31 / F32 / F33 (2012 - current)
The sixth generation 3 series, chassis code F30. 2013 model year 328i and 335i sedans now in production. Read the F30 frequently asked question thread for all your basic question and dive into all the details in the ultimate F30 information thread.

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  #51  
Old 01-07-2014, 01:34 PM
gkr778 gkr778 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by z3RIFFRAFF View Post
You guys do know that major temperature changes does change the psi in your tires, don't you? This happened in the Infiniti I just traded in too. If you measure the psi when the car has been driven and the tires heat up, the pressure will change (drop) once it cools down.

In areas where the temperature fluctuates a bunch (like this year in NJ) you will need to add some air in the winter and you may need to drop some in the summer. It can vary by 5-7 psi which might be enough to turn on the indicator.

My indicator has not come on, but I bought the car in December.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost Horizon View Post
This: Tire pressure drops about 1 psi for every 10 degrees F drop in ambient temperature. Additionally, tires lose as much as 1.5 psi per month as air escapes the tire and rim naturally.

So if you haven't checked your tires since August @ 75F and today its -25F, you will be down 5 months * -1.5psi + (-1psi)*(75F-(-25F))/10 = 1.5 + 10 = -11.5 +/- psi.. which will definitely be out of spec for the runflat that still 'looks' OK.
But Dr. 328xi's experience makes me think there's something not proper with the TPI system. Dr. 328xi checked tire pressures with a quality gauge and confirmed they are within spec, yet a tire pressure warning still displays in the instrument cluster.

That's why I'm curious if any Canadians (or anyone with a non-U.S. spec F30 with the indirect FTM system) here on Bimmerfest have experienced the same issue of false tire pressure warnings as Dr. 328xi and Barredbard.
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  #52  
Old 01-07-2014, 01:48 PM
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Zeichen311 Zeichen311 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. 328xi View Post
However, thus far, every time the temperature has changed, the TPMS goes yellow x 4 tires, and every time, each tire has been spot on by a manual gauge. This is both in the heat in the summer, the first "big" drop in temps in the fall, and now this "polar vortex" thing.

Seems more like this car just has too many electronic gadgets that are too sensitive and fragile.
I agree, that seems abnormal. Am I reading you correctly, that you have had this all-tires alert when the temperature goes up in summer? That can't be anything other than a malfunction.

The dealer will dismiss it as caused by normal temperature variation unless presented with data to the contrary. The question is, do you want to bother? You need to record ambient temperature and all tire pressures whenever you reset the TPMS, adjust tire pressures and/or get an alert. If your measurements over time show that you're getting alerts that don't make sense relative to the most recent reset pressures, they can find and fix the problem. Otherwise they'll blame (or educate) the operator.

I don't know whether the manual makes it clear, but: TPMS should be re-initialized only when the tires are at the correct cold pressures. In other words, do it right away after changing tire pressure, and add/bleed air only to cold tires. Resetting the TPMS when the tires are warmer than when you measured the pressure--for example, after a half-hour commute, or in the evening because you forgot to do it in the morning--will likely produce false alarms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost Horizon View Post
Additionally, tires lose as much as 1.5 psi per month as air escapes the tire and rim naturally.
Key phrase being "as much as"--in practice, 1.5 psi/month is rather excessive nowadays (I'd call it a slow leak). Properly-mounted tires on wheels in good repair need not bleed down that much per year.
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  #53  
Old 01-07-2014, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Zeichen311 View Post
............

.......I don't know whether the manual makes it clear, but: TPMS should be re-initialized only when the tires are at the correct cold pressures. In other words, do it right away after changing tire pressure, and add/bleed air only to cold tires. Resetting the TPMS when the tires are warmer than when you measured the pressure--for example, after a half-hour commute, or in the evening because you forgot to do it in the morning--will likely produce false alarms........
^ wot Zeichen says.. When you reset, that becomes the benchmark. TPMS is not that precise absolutely, it's good for the differential +/-. So if you put in 50psi and reset, that becomes the benchmark. Then +/- whatever the delta psi is for the alarm trigger will be where it tells you it's low... It is not related to what the book says the pressure should be. That's up to you to set it right for the loads and driving you do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeichen311 View Post
............

....Key phrase being "as much as"--in practice, 1.5 psi/month is rather excessive nowadays (I'd call it a slow leak). Properly-mounted tires on wheels in good repair need not bleed down that much per year.
Yeah.. I'll partially buy that... but it's higher than 1.5 per year unless you are using pure nitrogen which diffuses slower than air with oxygen. Still, the big loss is the 10psi from 100 deg temp change in the mind experiment above, so the other argument is just incidental. (If you notice, I only used a total of 1.5 psi for the 5 months in the equation).
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  #54  
Old 01-07-2014, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by gkr778 View Post
But Dr. 328xi's experience makes me think there's something not proper with the TPI system. Dr. 328xi checked tire pressures with a quality gauge and confirmed they are within spec, yet a tire pressure warning still displays in the instrument cluster..
As noted above, the system will trigger on CHANGE in pressure from the value when it is reset, not the ABSOLUTE pressure. The pressures you should run are up to you: do you carry a load of gold in the trunk, four passengers, drive over 100 etc.. TPMS just monitors that within a few PSI. If Dr. 328 set the pressures while the tires were hot, (s)he will already be down some the next morning on day one, and closer to the threshold..

Quote:
Originally Posted by gkr778 View Post
..

That's why I'm curious if any Canadians (or anyone with a non-U.S. spec F30 with the indirect FTM system) here on Bimmerfest have experienced the same issue of false tire pressure warnings as Dr. 328xi and Barredbard.
My E92 had the FTM system, and it just monitored the baseline rolling circumferences of all 4 tires when you reset. The weakness of that system is that if all 4 tires are down 10PSI @ -30, it's still happy, as the rolling references will all tick over the same as all the tires are smaller. So you don't get an alarm. The only time will be when one tire is flat or low, and is out of synch with the reference. So, if you don't look after your pressures in the dead of winter, you can easily damage your sidewalls over a month or so of running low pressures.

Also, my (Canadian) F32 came with the TPMS... apparently, some of the first production cars had it, but I'm not sure if the ones coming off the line still do. I know this because I had to refit my new winter tires with sensors after I installed them and ran 10km trying to figure out why they weren't resetting..
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  #55  
Old 01-07-2014, 02:44 PM
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Soooo, has anybody hooked up a charger to their battery to see if it fixes the problem ? Not defending BMW here, but those that are ready to go to another brand, how do you know those cars are not suffering similar issues? This historic cold snap is brutal on machinery, as has been mentioned, batteries and tire pressure are a couple of things especially susceptible to bad cold snaps. I've seen a lot of cars stranded/stalled on the side of the road the last few days and it doesn't seem to be brand specific.

Hey Lawyer guy, you are not the only one that can't miss work and needs a dependable car.
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  #56  
Old 01-07-2014, 03:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gkr778 View Post
But Dr. 328xi's experience makes me think there's something not proper with the TPI system. Dr. 328xi checked tire pressures with a quality gauge and confirmed they are within spec, yet a tire pressure warning still displays in the instrument cluster.

That's why I'm curious if any Canadians (or anyone with a non-U.S. spec F30 with the indirect FTM system) here on Bimmerfest have experienced the same issue of false tire pressure warnings as Dr. 328xi and Barredbard.
Something is probably wrong with Dr 328's TPMS. And probably also with his gauge if he's getting the same readings at significantly different temperatures. Air expands and shrinks with temperature. That's just a plain and simple fact. You cannot fill a tire to 38psi at 60 degrees and have that tire still be at 38psi at 20 degrees.

I inflated my tires in October when the temps were in the 80's. The TPMS came on when temps fell to the 30's. Lo and behold, all 4 tires were exactly 5 psi low.
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  #57  
Old 01-07-2014, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by chiefneil View Post
Something is probably wrong with Dr 328's TPMS. And probably also with his gauge if he's getting the same readings at significantly different temperatures. Air expands and shrinks with temperature. That's just a plain and simple fact. You cannot fill a tire to 38psi at 60 degrees and have that tire still be at 38psi at 20 degrees.

I inflated my tires in October when the temps were in the 80's. The TPMS came on when temps fell to the 30's. Lo and behold, all 4 tires were exactly 5 psi low.
So.. the 1 psi per 10 deg rule of thumb is right on for typical BMW tire volume..

Dr 328 should have been +/- 4 psi down on that basis, within the alarm window..
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  #58  
Old 01-07-2014, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Soooo, has anybody hooked up a charger to their battery to see if it fixes the problem ?
I don't even know where it is in my X5.
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  #59  
Old 01-07-2014, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Soooo, has anybody hooked up a charger to their battery to see if it fixes the problem ?
Yes, I did. I put a good charger on for a day and, now I am driving to work every day, the battery is fine again. It was a couple of days of non-use, coupled with -20F, that caused the problem.

I also measured the voltage and, when the display indicated it was low, the sitting battery read ~ 10.5V.

I also avoid the TPMS issue by routinely checking and adjusting cold tire pressure. Too many years at the track makes this automatic. Everyone remember to take some air out when it gets warmer again.

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  #60  
Old 01-07-2014, 04:14 PM
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I don't even know where it is in my X5.
The battery is in the trunk for our F30 and X1. But, you don't hook up the charger directly to the battery. For the F30 check page 209 in the owners manual. They have a nice picture where to hook a charger up under the hood. Not sure for the X5, but I am assuming it is similar to what I am describing.

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Originally Posted by Elk View Post
Yes, I did. I put a good charger on for a day and, now I am driving to work every day, the battery is fine again. It was a couple of days of non-use, coupled with -20F, that caused the problem.

I also measured the voltage and, when the display indicated it was low, the sitting battery read ~ 10.5V.

I also avoid the TPMS issue by routinely checking and adjusting cold tire pressure. Too many years at the track makes this automatic. Everyone remember to take some air out when it gets warmer again.
Nice! I too am a fan of being proactive with TPMS. I check them once, twice a month and try for an average temp day for the season. 15ish in the winter and 75ish in the summer for our climate. That gives you some leeway for temperature swings and avoid the dreaded yellow TPMS light. It has worked well over the years for me and if I have a warning light, it almost always has meant it.
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  #61  
Old 01-07-2014, 04:18 PM
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Battery warning went off this afternoon, we have a heat wave in Minneapolis - temp only -1 today!! Also noticed the ambient lighting stopped working during the battery message and my iPod stopped charging. Tire pressure warning is still on. Hopefully the gas station near me has a working air compressor. Apparently, there has been an outage of working compressors around the area. Wonder why??? :->

My last car, and Audi A4 had similar issues with TPMS. Frequently, and I babied that car. Never had a battery warning go off. I was more impressed with all of the messages I received from iDrive. Pretty cool awareness messages for the warnings vs. a warning light going off. My BMW was just in for service in August, so I am going to chalk it up to temp drop affecting tire pressure.
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  #62  
Old 01-07-2014, 05:08 PM
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I changed my battery in an 2007 325i and tried to start it, it's about -3 degrees here in Chicago. I now smell a burn smell coming from the engine, maybe trying to start it to much?


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  #63  
Old 01-07-2014, 06:49 PM
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Battery warning went off this afternoon, we have a heat wave in Minneapolis - temp only -1 today!! Also noticed the ambient lighting stopped working during the battery message and my iPod stopped charging.
The system does everything it can to protect what charge is left and shuts everything unnecessary off.
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  #64  
Old 01-08-2014, 05:38 AM
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As of this morning no battery warnings at all. Temp is -5F=WARM! Highs today at around 8F. I think I will get the A/C checked!
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  #65  
Old 01-08-2014, 06:04 AM
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I am no longer in a rage as I was yesterday. I was mainly angry because it seemed my 335 is less reliable in the winter than any other car that I have owned. But upon reflection, none of the other cars I have previously owned - execpt for the 2013 Honda Accord I traded for my car - ever had sensors for the tires and the batteries. The Honda had both, and never reacted in the same way for the one winter that I owned it. I have owned two Mazdas and other than a previous penchant for troublesome transmissions, that brand appeared to make the most reliable cars I had ever owned, harkening back to a Mazda 6 that started right up after being parked for 6 months with no charging. But to be fair, and I generally try to be, perhaps it was a case of ignorance being bliss. Those vehicles never had any sensors, hence perhaps the tires were low in air pressure, and I didn't know it through the winter. I generally only put more air in my tires when they appeared visibly low, or when I was changing tires and was told that they were low.

I am no longer concerned because resetting the sensor has given me back the ability to drive in Sport mode. I don't plan on tinkering with the tires until the weather becomes more hospitable. I won't give the sensors much attention unless the tires appear to be sitting visibly low. I will also ignore the low battery warnings as it does not seem to be affecting anything as at yet. It warns me that certain electronic functions are now shut off when the car is parked to conserve battery. Fine by me. As long as I don't wake up someday and attempt to start my car unsuccessfully, there will be peace on earth. On a somewhat related note, my erstwhile 2013 Honda Accord always shut off all electronic accessories and sockets 5 minutes after the vehicle was parked and locked. This was both a gift and a curse. A gift because there was no chance of depleting the battery by carelessly leaving something on, but a curse because if I couldn't deliberately leave something - usually my cellphone - charging if I wanted to.

Does anyone know if - similar to the Honda - my 335 shuts down all electronic functions including the ability to charge electronic devices like cell phones when the car is parked and turned off?
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  #66  
Old 01-08-2014, 07:01 AM
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I won't give the sensors much attention unless the tires appear to be sitting visibly low.
You have runflats, they don't visibly display low pressure the same as non-runflats.
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  #67  
Old 01-08-2014, 07:09 AM
gkr778 gkr778 is online now
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Originally Posted by Barredbard View Post
Does anyone know if - similar to the Honda - my 335 shuts down all electronic functions including the ability to charge electronic devices like cell phones when the car is parked and turned off?
The 12V power point located forward of the shifter in my F30 appears to be "always on" rather than "key/ignition on". I used a portable tire inflator that plugs in to the 12V socket a few days ago, and it operated without having to activate the car's ignition.

Incidentally, your 2013 Honda Accord is among the cars that use a new generation of wheel sensor free indirect TPMS that comply with FMVSS No. 138. While they don't make the regulation any less silly, I hope that such indirect systems become more common in vehicles from other automakers. Currently, Volkswagen/Audi, Honda, and Mazda use them.
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  #68  
Old 01-08-2014, 07:11 AM
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I live in Michigan. -15 degrees yesterday, not including wind chill. Car started fine in garage, no messages. Later in the morning after a short trip the car gave a message about charging the battery or letting the car run longer. I'm not worried about it. I am sure it is being overly cautious. No problems today. Let it warm up in the garage extra long today.
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  #69  
Old 01-08-2014, 07:35 AM
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Funny everyone here wants to blame BMW, but no one has done a battery load test. Batteries just like all other products can be defective or built weak (not 100% up to spec standards). They can be built to perform within a range but many may pass the bare min standard as most of the US does and Europe does not experience the bitter cold we have had this past week. I have been to enough battery factories to know they are not highly sophisticated operations. Last I checked BMW does not own a battery factory and this is one of the items they outsource. So if you have a battery light and it was triggered by the cold weather, chances are the battery may be off slightly on the specs. Only way to determine if you have a healthy battery is to do a load test which it might perform to the min but not 100% for the deep freeze.
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Old 01-08-2014, 08:01 AM
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  #71  
Old 01-08-2014, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Dippydo View Post
Funny everyone here wants to blame BMW, but no one has done a battery load test. Batteries just like all other products can be defective or built weak (not 100% up to spec standards). They can be built to perform within a range but many may pass the bare min standard as most of the US does and Europe does not experience the bitter cold we have had this past week. I have been to enough battery factories to know they are not highly sophisticated operations. Last I checked BMW does not own a battery factory and this is one of the items they outsource. So if you have a battery light and it was triggered by the cold weather, chances are the battery may be off slightly on the specs. Only way to determine if you have a healthy battery is to do a load test which it might perform to the min but not 100% for the deep freeze.
You know, similar b*tching fest was hugely en vogue this year and everybody's favorite pinata was Pirelli. Every F1 team had something to say about them and how bad their tires were. Sh*t, even the guy cleaning the garage was quoted in press complaining about horrible Pirelli tires. You know what? Pirelli supplied the tires they were asked to supply. They didn't invent specs, they were given to them by FIA. But even people habitually handling 100s of millions of dollars prefer to hit those who can't hit back instead of going to pick a fight with FIA.

So, whomever provided batteries for BMW provided batteries that are to the spec requested by BMW. And even if they weren't, that's hardly a battery manufacturer's problem and it falls on BMW's quality control and testing dept.

I don't care why this happened (probably because draw specs were calcualted at 20 degrees C and their brutal winter testing never had a vehicle sitting for days before starting again) - I just wish my car would shut down when I tell it to shut TF down. No double-guessing, no checking for tell-tale signs it's still alive and doing something ... just kill yourself and stay killed until I tell you to wake up. As with spare tire, I'm not asking for something that was never engineered into cars, I just ask to apply 80+ years of engineering knowledge where it does benefit the customer. That's all.

By the way, for newer guys, don't think that E90 generation was any better - actually batteries there were failing without even getting close to anything cold. And yes, BMW was blaming customer for that.
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Old 01-08-2014, 10:55 AM
Barredbard Barredbard is offline
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Originally Posted by Dippydo View Post
Funny everyone here wants to blame BMW, but no one has done a battery load test. Batteries just like all other products can be defective or built weak (not 100% up to spec standards). They can be built to perform within a range but many may pass the bare min standard as most of the US does and Europe does not experience the bitter cold we have had this past week. I have been to enough battery factories to know they are not highly sophisticated operations. Last I checked BMW does not own a battery factory and this is one of the items they outsource. So if you have a battery light and it was triggered by the cold weather, chances are the battery may be off slightly on the specs. Only way to determine if you have a healthy battery is to do a load test which it might perform to the min but not 100% for the deep freeze.
Errr, this one is a head-scratcher. Who should I blame then? Aren't there quality-control measures in place for such misadventures? Doesn't BMW have ultimate control over what maker to use for its battery? Should I pursue Chinese manufacturers if some of the plastic materials used in the vehicle start malfunctioning? Taiwanese manufacturers for their components?
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  #73  
Old 01-08-2014, 10:59 AM
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You have runflats, they don't visibly display low pressure the same as non-runflats.
So true.. and important to remember before you crack the sidewalls over time in cold, cold weather.. especially run flats.

On the Battery discussion:

Here's one of the main problems of physics with cold weather:

The available capacity of an AGM battery at -40 is only 30% of rated...

So a grinding hard start to get going, then a couple of ASS start/Stops and idling in traffic with all of the nannies on to keep you warm, including lights, etc is a downhill discharge slide all the way into work at the low temps. Plus, the car is aggressive when it comes to keeping enough capacity back to get you started as a last resort, and Chicken Little about telling you in advance ..
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Old 01-08-2014, 12:07 PM
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Mein Auto: 2012 F30
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Originally Posted by Barredbard View Post
Errr, this one is a head-scratcher. Who should I blame then? Aren't there quality-control measures in place for such misadventures? Doesn't BMW have ultimate control over what maker to use for its battery? Should I pursue Chinese manufacturers if some of the plastic materials used in the vehicle start malfunctioning? Taiwanese manufacturers for their components?

Mark and Barred, of course you hold BMW accountable for the warranty aspect but to assume BMW is crap because a couple of you guys are having issues is not fair as well. As I pointed out NONE of you having an issue have performed a load test on the battery and as the other member pointed out, lead acid batteries SUCK in these frigid temperatures. I can assure you other car makers are having this issue as well. This is the busiest season for tow trucks and not just for BMW cars. My mom just picked up a C300 two weeks ago and in Austin texas of all places not that cold, she came out to a dead battery Monday. You cannot have 0% defective rate on any product, I don't care what it is. Water for crying out loud is not always the same. Motorola was the best at QC and they never reached 0%. There are many of us that have no issues at all. I live in Minnesota and my car parked outside all day at work with -50F windchill and the temp was -22-24 and no issues here and it has been below zero since the beginning of December! That is my point.
I would bet you any amount of money the rate of people complaining about a low battery/dead battery in their 2012+ F30 is less than 1%. I would peg it below .10% otherwise we would have more on the boards complaining about the light. From a glance there is less than 5 having this issue out of how many bloggers? Sure everyone is free to make a mountain out of a molehill.
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Old 01-08-2014, 02:41 PM
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minn19 minn19 is online now
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Minnesota
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 914
Mein Auto: 335i xDrive, X1 28ixDrive
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barredbard View Post
Errr, this one is a head-scratcher. Who should I blame then? Aren't there quality-control measures in place for such misadventures? Doesn't BMW have ultimate control over what maker to use for its battery? Should I pursue Chinese manufacturers if some of the plastic materials used in the vehicle start malfunctioning? Taiwanese manufacturers for their components?
Not to pile on, but what has me scratching my head is how many of you disregarded the warning and risked being late for work or being stranded in some pretty nasty weather. Could somebody also show me where the car was unreliable ? Sounds like everybodies car started and got people where they needed to be, despite it warning you of impending trouble.

My guess is the battery warning is like the low fuel light, it comes on maybe much to soon and you have probably more leeway to work with then the warning suggests. I'm guessing BMW is erring on the side of caution due to previous people complaining the warnings came on to late leaving them stranded somewhere.
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