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F10 M5 (2012 - Current)
The count down is on. The BMW M5 F10 will be released on April 1st, 2011!

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  #26  
Old 01-09-2014, 09:36 AM
Alpine300ZHP Alpine300ZHP is offline
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Originally Posted by SuperTerp View Post
I think you'll regret it... I wish I'd kept mine and I wouldn't be eating depriciation like crazy. It's a great car, and its fun being in a removed setting and still being able to whip a$$, but it was not a more fun car then the m3... I was still smiling after 14k miles with the m3, I just got impulsive. This car I was over it by 3,000 with limited mod options and nothing but speculation on the horizon.



Its a great car... It really is.
Terp....if we were talking about the E92 then I agree. However, I am very uncertain about the F82. I have to wait until I have been able to drive it to know if I will love it like I love my E92.


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  #27  
Old 01-09-2014, 10:13 AM
SuperTerp SuperTerp is offline
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Originally Posted by Alpine300ZHP View Post
Terp....if we were talking about the E92 then I agree. However, I am very uncertain about the F82. I have to wait until I have been able to drive it to know if I will love it like I love my E92.


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We are lol.. I'm skeptical if the f82 will have that resigned detached feeling of speed, combined with no mod options that car could really blow lol.
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  #28  
Old 01-09-2014, 10:16 AM
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We are lol.. I'm skeptical if the f82 will have that resigned detached feeling of speed, combined with no mod options that car could really blow lol.
With a true twin turbo setup, that car is going to have mod options coming out the tailpipes.


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  #29  
Old 01-09-2014, 10:30 AM
Alpine300ZHP Alpine300ZHP is offline
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Originally Posted by SuperTerp View Post
We are lol.. I'm skeptical if the f82 will have that resigned detached feeling of speed, combined with no mod options that car could really blow lol.
Agreed.


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  #30  
Old 01-09-2014, 11:55 AM
SuperTerp SuperTerp is offline
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With a true twin turbo setup, that car is going to have mod options coming out the tailpipes.


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M5 is and they still can't even just get the speed limiter off. If the encryption is that same standard they might not... Might be like the IS-F which still hasn't had the ECU cracked for forced induction upgrades, all that can be done is some bolt ons and nos.
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  #31  
Old 01-09-2014, 12:31 PM
Alpine300ZHP Alpine300ZHP is offline
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Originally Posted by SuperTerp View Post
M5 is and they still can't even just get the speed limiter off. If the encryption is that same standard they might not... Might be like the IS-F which still hasn't had the ECU cracked for forced induction upgrades, all that can be done is some bolt ons and nos.
I would expect the same for the m4. BMW is using these new Bosch ECU's in all of the new motors. My x5m has the last BMW M motor with the old ECU. With a Dinan tune I can make the x5M as fast as the M5 with 610 hp bump and 168 mph top speed.


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Last edited by Alpine300ZHP; 01-09-2014 at 01:31 PM.
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  #32  
Old 01-14-2014, 07:48 AM
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Hello!

Greetings from Germany, the only country with no speedlimit on the highways.

I'd three years the 550i (the last year with chiptuning from Noelle with 495 hp) and now for 11 month the M5 (with M Driver Package). The difference is not only the 152 hp or 65 hp more. The 550i is a excellent cruising car for long distances, the M5 could do the same (everything on Comfort) or is a sportive car (everything on Sport+) which makes more fun on the road. To drive >250 km/h is nearly the same like in other cars 160 km/h.

Of course, the M5 is heavy and you can feel it on a track. Two month ago I was on the new race track in Germany (Bilster Berg), nearly the small version of the Nürburgring, in my opinion the famoust and most difficult race track in the world. With 26% downhill and 21% uphill, many curves and only short time straight ahead you have the punch to beat every M3 or 1 M Coupe, but in the next two curves they will pass you. For the race track the M5 isn't the perfect one but it's the best compromise to have two cars in one. How easily the M5 reach the 200 km/h is everytime fantastic and to press down the pedal at 150 km/h and to see how fast you will be after 10 seconds is incredible.

In March I will get the tuning from Manhart with 640 hp and I'm sure, the fun-factor will increase.

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  #33  
Old 01-14-2014, 07:54 AM
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In March I will get the tuning from Manhart with 640 hp and I'm sure, the fun-factor will increase.

CU Oliver
Sorry to say your car is already underrated from the factory (mine put down 550whp-570whp with charcoal filters and zero tune)... Manharts "tune" via rebadged competition package is far from one like the 355i guys see with Cobb, BMS, exc. I'd wait till you saw an actual tune.

Comparing crank numbers to the ones posted by Eurocharge, Manhart exc. is silly. Downpipes, exhaust, intake + piggyback and or comp press file will all increase the cars aweesomeness... I'm just saying Manhart isn't doing a single thing different from the other options avalible to us m5 guys.
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  #34  
Old 01-14-2014, 08:07 AM
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Hello!

Why should it be underrated??

Remember, in Germay we have non-limit highways but a nice company called TÜV. It's not so easy to get a tuning with TÜV approval. Without it you will loose warranty and insurance and after an accidence you can pay everything by your own - a damn risk. That's the reason why retrofitting is not the same like in US. "Pimp my car" is unthinkable here. West coast custom f. e. closed their shop in Germany 2010.

Manhart is only one from many tuners here in Germany. I'd my first tuning from Noelle (chiptuning) with 629 hp but I got problems with the DKG so I flashed my car to the 2.51.2 to delete the tuning (I've ISTA/P therefore). Manhart is one possibiltiy to get more hp with TÜV. I contacted also G-Power last week but without any response at the moment. We will see.

CU Oliver
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  #35  
Old 01-14-2014, 08:12 AM
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  #36  
Old 01-14-2014, 08:15 AM
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Hello!

Seems Germany-USA is much faster than Germany-Germany

CU Oliver
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  #37  
Old 01-14-2014, 09:50 AM
SuperTerp SuperTerp is offline
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Hello!

Why should it be underrated??
No I'm saying the Hp numbers if you look at that 640 compared to the crank 564 thats a big gain assuming drivetrain loss.

But when the m5 engines are coming from the factory in most cases within .01-.05% drivetrain loss maybe less... Those numbers are less and less appealing.

Thats just my opinion though. And having a limited highway hasn't deterred me from maxing out the car daily
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  #38  
Old 02-06-2014, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by SuperTerp View Post
No I'm saying the Hp numbers if you look at that 640 compared to the crank 564 thats a big gain assuming drivetrain loss.

But when the m5 engines are coming from the factory in most cases within .01-.05% drivetrain loss maybe less... Those numbers are less and less appealing.

Thats just my opinion though. And having a limited highway hasn't deterred me from maxing out the car daily
Are you sure about this ? I thought the HP loss from the engine to the wheels was more like 15 %. 5 % and under seems very light.
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  #39  
Old 02-06-2014, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by SuperTerp View Post
Sorry to say your car is already underrated from the factory (mine put down 550whp-570whp with charcoal filters and zero tune)... Manharts "tune" via rebadged competition package is far from one like the 355i guys see with Cobb, BMS, exc. I'd wait till you saw an actual tune.

Comparing crank numbers to the ones posted by Eurocharge, Manhart exc. is silly. Downpipes, exhaust, intake + piggyback and or comp press file will all increase the cars aweesomeness... I'm just saying Manhart isn't doing a single thing different from the other options avalible to us m5 guys.
550-570 whp would mean that the M5 is producing about 620 hp +/- at the engine straight from the factory. I know I have heard that bmw underestimates their HP numbers from the factory but that seems a little rediculous.
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  #40  
Old 02-06-2014, 09:07 AM
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550-570 whp would mean that the M5 is producing about 620 hp +/- at the engine straight from the factory. I know I have heard that bmw underestimates their HP numbers from the factory but that seems a little rediculous.
It's actually true. Look up stock dyno charts.


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  #41  
Old 02-06-2014, 10:04 AM
bjayfan bjayfan is offline
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Originally Posted by FTC View Post
550-570 whp would mean that the M5 is producing about 620 hp +/- at the engine straight from the factory. I know I have heard that bmw underestimates their HP numbers from the factory but that seems a little rediculous.
There is some truth to this.

The problem is, as most people know, that the most accurate use of a dyno is not to tell you what the wheel HP is, but to measure the gain (or loss) of power through changes. A benchmark dyno gives you some starting value, but using that benchmark value as the true measure of whp is more inaccurate than some think.

There are benchmarks from M5's/M6's that show 550-570 whp. These same cars on different dyno's show less than that. Different cars show different whp values on the same dyno's.

There is no question that the engine is underrated, putting a specific number to that is much more complex and difficult.
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  #42  
Old 02-06-2014, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by bjayfan View Post
There is some truth to this.

The problem is, as most people know, that the most accurate use of a dyno is not to tell you what the wheel HP is, but to measure the gain (or loss) of power through changes. A benchmark dyno gives you some starting value, but using that benchmark value as the true measure of whp is more inaccurate than some think.

There are benchmarks from M5's/M6's that show 550-570 whp. These same cars on different dyno's show less than that. Different cars show different whp values on the same dyno's.

There is no question that the engine is underrated, putting a specific number to that is much more complex and difficult.
In other words what you are saying is that if the M5/M6 is coming out of the factory at somewhere's between 560-600 HP it is losing alot less than the standard 15 % thru the drivetrain. Probably somewheres around 5 % drivetrain loss.
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  #43  
Old 02-06-2014, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by bjayfan View Post
There is some truth to this.

The problem is, as most people know, that the most accurate use of a dyno is not to tell you what the wheel HP is, but to measure the gain (or loss) of power through changes. A benchmark dyno gives you some starting value, but using that benchmark value as the true measure of whp is more inaccurate than some think.

There are benchmarks from M5's/M6's that show 550-570 whp. These same cars on different dyno's show less than that. Different cars show different whp values on the same dyno's.

There is no question that the engine is underrated, putting a specific number to that is much more complex and difficult.
By the way how do you like your 2014 M6 ? And is it the competition package ? Handling,speed,steering feel, and overall function.
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  #44  
Old 02-06-2014, 02:20 PM
bjayfan bjayfan is offline
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Originally Posted by FTC View Post
In other words what you are saying is that if the M5/M6 is coming out of the factory at somewhere's between 560-600 HP it is losing alot less than the standard 15 % thru the drivetrain. Probably somewheres around 5 % drivetrain loss.
I'd say the drivetrain loss is higher than 5%. It's an overrated engine for sure, people much more knowledgeable than me toss out 600hp easily.

The real issue is the type of dyno used, and with inertia dynos people are seeing some pretty big (perhaps outrageous) numbers. When you consider the operator and the final drive ratio used in the test (should get as close as 1:1 as you can) it's easy to push the numbers up, and there are just too many shops that know that big numbers make customers happy and coming back for additional tests.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FTC View Post
By the way how do you like your 2014 M6 ? And is it the competition package ? Handling,speed,steering feel, and overall function.
Love it. Not a competition package. The car is big and heavy, but feels much lighter and smaller (tossable) than the 550 I came out of. This is not a sports/track/race car by any means, but it's enough to put a smile on anyone's face.

Handling: Great, just a touch of understeer that can be corrected in almost any situation by pushing the accelerator just a touch. First looked at the M5 and wasn't happy with the handling there at all, and that got me looking at other cars.

Speed: More than 99.9% would ever want. Few places to use it. If you asked about power I'd say that it's perfect. You can use it at low speeds to correct a turn and coming out of turn traction is the only limit.

Steering feel: Good. Any car with this weight isn't going to have perfect feel, hydraulic or EPS. Comfort is good, Sport is perfect when pushing it, Sport+ is just to heavy. Communication from the road/wheel is there, just not as 'loud' as a true sports car.

Overall? I use it as a DD, evenings and weekends will take it to the back roads and have some fun. Wife and I drove to Florida and back last Thanksgiving, the range of use is amazing, just a flip of one of the M buttons can change the characteristics considerably.

Took delivery in early September, have a bit over 10K miles on it already, haven't had to add a drop of oil and zero issues with the car. Feels as solid as it is heavy.

If you want something for the weekend or track, this isn't the car for you, but if you're going to drive it then you've got something that you can have fun with just about anytime or anywhere.
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  #45  
Old 02-07-2014, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by bjayfan View Post
I'd say the drivetrain loss is higher than 5%. It's an overrated engine for sure, people much more knowledgeable than me toss out 600hp easily.

The real issue is the type of dyno used, and with inertia dynos people are seeing some pretty big (perhaps outrageous) numbers. When you consider the operator and the final drive ratio used in the test (should get as close as 1:1 as you can) it's easy to push the numbers up, and there are just too many shops that know that big numbers make customers happy and coming back for additional tests.



Love it. Not a competition package. The car is big and heavy, but feels much lighter and smaller (tossable) than the 550 I came out of. This is not a sports/track/race car by any means, but it's enough to put a smile on anyone's face.

Handling: Great, just a touch of understeer that can be corrected in almost any situation by pushing the accelerator just a touch. First looked at the M5 and wasn't happy with the handling there at all, and that got me looking at other cars.

Speed: More than 99.9% would ever want. Few places to use it. If you asked about power I'd say that it's perfect. You can use it at low speeds to correct a turn and coming out of turn traction is the only limit.

Steering feel: Good. Any car with this weight isn't going to have perfect feel, hydraulic or EPS. Comfort is good, Sport is perfect when pushing it, Sport+ is just to heavy. Communication from the road/wheel is there, just not as 'loud' as a true sports car.

Overall? I use it as a DD, evenings and weekends will take it to the back roads and have some fun. Wife and I drove to Florida and back last Thanksgiving, the range of use is amazing, just a flip of one of the M buttons can change the characteristics considerably.

Took delivery in early September, have a bit over 10K miles on it already, haven't had to add a drop of oil and zero issues with the car. Feels as solid as it is heavy.

If you want something for the weekend or track, this isn't the car for you, but if you're going to drive it then you've got something that you can have fun with just about anytime or anywhere.
Thanks for the info on the dyno and HP Drivetrain loss. Very good info. Explains why M5/M6'S are able to hang with all wheel drive competitors and 2 door sports cars in 0-60 runs and in some cases better them.

As far as what you said about the performance and driving of your M6 I feel just about the same way about my M5. Purchased mine in late june and I currently have 6400 miles on it, not a daily driver for me, but that is half the mileage I had on my 2011 550 x drive dinan stage 4, which I traded for the M5. As you said the car is incredibly fast, you will never use it all on U.S. Roads. Although when I have taken it out driving on backroads it is alot of fun ! Heavy ? yes maybe a little bit, but to me the M5 drives much smaller than the 4350 lbs. 6 speed manual and the 600 hp twin turbo v-8 has no problem pulling the 4350 lbs and 4 doors effortlessly. I personally really enjoy driving the M5 hard, backroads, espcially when I am in MDM and the back end slides out from underneath you and it corrects itself just in time. I am by no means a great driver but I have learned to respect the HP and weight of the M5 and I feel once you have done that the car is really fun to drive, espcially with the 6 speed manual. 3rd and 4 TH GEAR ARE MY FAVORITES FOR BACKROAD DRIVING ! The F80 M3 really interests me but I think I will wait for the competition package to come out.
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  #46  
Old 02-18-2014, 09:38 AM
SuperTerp SuperTerp is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bjayfan View Post
There is some truth to this.

The problem is, as most people know, that the most accurate use of a dyno is not to tell you what the wheel HP is, but to measure the gain (or loss) of power through changes. A benchmark dyno gives you some starting value, but using that benchmark value as the true measure of whp is more inaccurate than some think.

There are benchmarks from M5's/M6's that show 550-570 whp. These same cars on different dyno's show less than that. Different cars show different whp values on the same dyno's.

There is no question that the engine is underrated, putting a specific number to that is much more complex and difficult.
You can't even get an accurate reading because in our cars the 1:1 gear is 4th gear and you hit the limiter before its even done...

And BMS cars are putting up sub 11.5 times left and right now at the track for the 1/4 mile.
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  #47  
Old 02-20-2014, 10:51 AM
bjayfan bjayfan is offline
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Originally Posted by SuperTerp View Post
You can't even get an accurate reading because in our cars the 1:1 gear is 4th gear and you hit the limiter before its even done...

And BMS cars are putting up sub 11.5 times left and right now at the track for the 1/4 mile.
It's 5th gear.
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